Anybody Know This Machine?

[sandyt]

Hello there people,

I am Sandy from Holland. This is my first post after reading these forums for a while. I am about to buy a machine to put in my 'collection'. I already have a pfaff 145, pfaff 1245, rafflenbeul ms200, junker & ruh sd28 and some old manual skiving/cutting machines (Rodi and Landis). All for 'daily use' as a hobby.

The machine I am about to buy can be seen with this link : http://hobby.marktpl...-evt-tafel.html

The seller says it's a Adler 104 but I don't think its a 104. Single feed. I would like to sew thick thread with it. In dutch we call it zwaar draad (heavy thread). 11/3. I don't know how to call it in Englisch? Sorry. It's not as thick as for sole stitching. 20/6.

It has to sew up to 8 mm of thick leather.

So does anybody know what type this machine is, so I can google myself?

At this point I am sewing this thick thread with my Pfaff 145. I slowed down the speed with a frequency converter so it goes realy realy slow, otherwise the upperthread will not be picked up at the loop where it should and the machine will jam. I know this machine is not build to do this so I am afraid to break the machine. That's why I am looking for a machine that can handle this type of sewing.

Thanks in advance.

Greetings from Holland.

[CowboyBob]

It looks more like a singer 45K to me than an Adler.Yes,it should sew 8mm & use a heavy thread,much heavier then your 145.

Bob

I don't know if you know it but the foot lifting bar for the pressure foot is missing on the back so you'll only have the hand lifter to raise the foot unless you but or have someone make the part you need.

Bovb

[sandyt]

Thank you so much!! Now I am sure it isn't a Adler. It has to be a singer 45K.

Now I am not sure if I should buy the machine. He is asking 100 euro's for it. Head only. No table and motor and no bobbins with only 1 needle.

Thanks for notifying the missing foot lifting bar. I didn't know. I do not realy need it but if I want to sell it again in the future I'm sure if I can get my money back. I am constantly changing machines. If I see a nicer/better machine I will buy it and sell my 'old one'.

Now I have something to think about. Hope I can get to sleep tonight.

Sandy.

[CowboyBob]

That's a pretty cheap price,I'd pay that for it as long as nothing else is missing,is the shuttle in it?Bobbns & needles shouldn't be to hard to get.

Bob

[sandyt]

Hi Sewmun,

Thanks for your time.

Yes, the shuttle is in it. If it was an Adler I would buy the machine right away. But it's a Singer. I don't know how you look at the machine in Your country, but singer isn't very popular overhere. Adler is. Pfaff also. Parts for those machines are easier to come by. That's why I am not sure wether to buy or not. I asked the seller to give me a few days to think about it. He agreed.

I have googeled the machine but can not find specifications? Does it have reverse? I don't think so.

Do you happen to know whats the maximun thicknes of leather that can be sewn with this machine?

Sandy.

[CowboyBob]

How much do Adlers sell for in Holland?It should sew 10-12 mm easy.No reverse,it takes the same needles,bobbins & shuttle as an Adler.Years ago we used to get parts in England for them.

Bob

[sandyt]

Adlers like the pfaff 145 (normal flatbed triple feed for upholstering and such) go around for 350-600 euro's. Heavy duty machines 800-1500 euro's. The prices I am talking about are the prices you can get them from auctionsites. If you go to the professional for a secondhand you pay almost double I think.

Sometimes you are lucky ofcoarse. Got my pfaff 145 for 200 for instance. The 1245 was 300 with efka variostop and all.

I wouldn't sew 12 mm that often but maybe I will need to some day. I think I am going for the machine. I have never had a 'heavy duty' machine like that. I am very curious. I like old quality stuff. I have a few older Hobart (American brand) planetary mixing machines too. Like to play with them.

Sandy.

[Trox]

Hi Sandy,

Sewmun might be right it is maybe a Singer 45K, but it is more likely the ancestor of the Adler 104, an Adler class 4 with drop feed. The Adler class 4 (flatbed) and class 5 (Cylinder arm) looks exactly like the Singer class 45 K. That is because Singer have copied the Adler model (and many other models to) Some of the 45K came in this blue gray color, but this machine is most likely painted. It has no decals or subclass number plate on the front.

As you said, the Adler is a much more common and popular machine main land Europe. To be sure, you must look at the stamping on the parts, and the main part number on the back of the machine. The Singer parts have simanco stamp on them. Many parts are also interchangeable like the shuttle. However, the 45K has a closed frame shuttle and the Adler an open frame one.

Because this machine is for sale in the Netherlands, I think it is an Adler.

Singer is not alone copying popular sewing machine models, but here I find a strange model from Singer, The 45A 92 http://parts.singerco.com/IPpartCharts/45A92.pdf It is a copy of the Adler 204 -64. In addition, Singer 45A 93 http://parts.singerco.com/IPpartCharts/45A93.pdf who is a copy of the Adler 205-64. If you look at the part lists and compare them with the Adler part list, you will see it has Adler part numbers. It is photocopies of the Adler part list. I wonder if Sewmun or anybody else has seen any of this Singer models in the US before.

Trox

(Adler fan)

Adlers like the pfaff 145 (normal flatbed triple feed for upholstering and such) go around for 350-600 euro's. Heavy duty machines 800-1500 euro's. The prices I am talking about are the prices you can get them from auctionsites. If you go to the professional for a secondhand you pay almost double I think.

Sometimes you are lucky ofcoarse. Got my pfaff 145 for 200 for instance. The 1245 was 300 with efka variostop and all.

I wouldn't sew 12 mm that often but maybe I will need to some day. I think I am going for the machine. I have never had a 'heavy duty' machine like that. I am very curious. I like old quality stuff. I have a few older Hobart (American brand) planetary mixing machines too. Like to play with them.

Sandy.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Hi Sandy,

Ask the seller for the serial number which is on the bed of the machine. I have a sneaking suspicion it is a 42 series.

Adlers like the pfaff 145 (normal flatbed triple feed for upholstering and such) go around for 350-600 euro's. Heavy duty machines 800-1500 euro's. The prices I am talking about are the prices you can get them from auctionsites. If you go to the professional for a secondhand you pay almost double I think.

Sometimes you are lucky ofcoarse. Got my pfaff 145 for 200 for instance. The 1245 was 300 with efka variostop and all.

I wouldn't sew 12 mm that often but maybe I will need to some day. I think I am going for the machine. I have never had a 'heavy duty' machine like that. I am very curious. I like old quality stuff. I have a few older Hobart (American brand) planetary mixing machines too. Like to play with them.

Sandy.

[CowboyBob]

I looked @ the pic again & am thinking Trox could be correct,the lube pot looks like Adler,but I didn't know the old Adlers used the spoked wheel.We don't have many of these old Adlers here in the states.The stitch length & bobbin winder looks like Singer,but the top tension doesn't look like Singer.

SO be sure to let us know some serial & or part # off the machine if you go to look @ it or even ask him & it might help to identfy it's brand.

It sure looks like it's been repainted because the legs & underneath look black.

Bob

[Trox]

The Adler class 4 came in more than 26 subclasses and at the end of production in the color blue grey. However, the Adler color is greyer; this is not the right color. I have a class 5 machine, a original part list for class 5, a manual for the class 4 and 5. The machine comes with all kinds of hand wheel. It came with two different bobbin winders to, manual and automatic. The one on the picture is the manual one. In the picture, you will se two different stitch regulators and two different hand wheel. Some of the subclasses look just the same as the 45K, so you must look at the parts stamping. There is no reference for Adler serial number that I know of, but Singer has a reference on their web site. Take a closer look and tell us what you see.

I looked @ the pic again & am thinking Trox could be correct,the lube pot looks like Adler,but I didn't know the old Adlers used the spoked wheel.We don't have many of these old Adlers here in the states.The stitch length & bobbin winder looks like Singer,but the top tension doesn't look like Singer.

SO be sure to let us know some serial & or part # off the machine if you go to look @ it or even ask him & it might help to identfy it's brand.

It sure looks like it's been repainted because the legs & underneath look black.

Bob

A13.pdf

A14.pdf

[Trox]

Here is a class 5-27 with the spoked hand wheel and a jump foot

. This have the other kind of stitch regulator.

Trox

The Adler class 4 came in more than 26 subclasses and at the end of production in the color blue grey. However, the Adler color is greyer; this is not the right color. I have a class 5 machine, a original part list for class 5, a manual for the class 4 and 5. The machine comes with all kinds of hand wheel. It came with two different bobbin winders to, manual and automatic. The one on the picture is the manual one. In the picture, you will se two different stitch regulators and two different hand wheel. Some of the subclasses look just the same as the 45K, so you must look at the parts stamping. There is no reference for Adler serial number that I know of, but Singer has a reference on their web site. Take a closer look and tell us what you see.

[sandyt]

You peaple are very very helpfull. Yesterday I picked up the machine. I couldn't wait to play with it. I still don't know for sure wether it is a Singer or an Adler. Still curious but I am nevertheless very happy with it. I made a spool myself from 3 spools from my pfaff 1245. Had to size them dowm a little but it works great for now. It stitches flawlessly. This machine rises (don't know if this is correct Englisch) my expectations.

The only number I could find on the machine is 3375 witch is stamped on the base of the machine. The spool is burnt (??? looks like the letters are burnt in there with a laser???) with the symbol KAW. Any other parts do not have any identification numbers or whatever. No Simanco anywhere. Originaly the machine was black for sure. It is painted green/bleu.

Luckily the seller had some more needles with it. He couldn't tell me more about the machine. He bought a bunch of industrial sewingmachines to keep 2 for himself and sell the rest.

Very happy Sandy who slept very little last night.

[CowboyBob]

Hello Sandy,

I'm glad it worked out for you & thanks for letting us know.

Bob

[Trox]

Hi Sandy!

Post a picture of the shuttle and I will idenify the machine for you. ( if the shuttle is a original) I can give you the name of a English company where you can buy bobbins.

Singer or Adler, both are built to last a millennium anyway.

Trox

You peaple are very very helpfull. Yesterday I picked up the machine. I couldn't wait to play with it. I still don't know for sure wether it is a Singer or an Adler. Still curious but I am nevertheless very happy with it. I made a spool myself from 3 spools from my pfaff 1245. Had to size them dowm a little but it works great for now. It stitches flawlessly. This machine rises (don't know if this is correct Englisch) my expectations.

The only number I could find on the machine is 3375 witch is stamped on the base of the machine. The spool is burnt (??? looks like the letters are burnt in there with a laser???) with the symbol KAW. Any other parts do not have any identification numbers or whatever. No Simanco anywhere. Originaly the machine was black for sure. It is painted green/bleu.

Luckily the seller had some more needles with it. He couldn't tell me more about the machine. He bought a bunch of industrial sewingmachines to keep 2 for himself and sell the rest.

Very happy Sandy who slept very little last night.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

For 100euros this is a very good buy.

My feeling is that it is whatever Singer copied to make the 42-5 unless it is a copy of the Singer 42-5.

[sandyt]

As soon as I know how to upload a picture, I will do it. I am 34 and I never uploaded a picture to the net in my life. Can you imagine?!? I will try to do it this week cause I'm still curious what machine i bought. Made a wooden base for it today because I am just hand cranking it. This way I can save space in my little house. Already way to many machines. Wish sewingmachines weren't that much fun to play with.

I think I already found a dutch webshop wich sells Bobins ( called them spool earlier!!!) for the adler 104. Those will fit right??

Groetjes,

Sandy.

[sandyt]

Now I played with it, I think its a very good buy indeed. Not familiar with these aged machines so at first I thought its a piece of junk, but they are realy realy realy cool pieces of junk:notworthy: !

Now I can't stop searching for more sewingmachines like this on the same site. Maybe I can loose a cabinet to place a sewingmachine instead, haha.....

[Trox]

Hi Darren,

I do not know if, or what Singer copied to make the 42-5. But the 42-5 looks different. It has a rounded needle plate an alternating

pressers. I have only seen the 42-5 in a picture, but it is different in many other ways to. The lube pot, and so on. I am sure you know your Singers , But this machine is a Adler 4 or a 45K. I will bet 5 Eur it is a Adler class 4.

Trox:no:

For 100euros this is a very good buy.

My feeling is that it is whatever Singer copied to make the 42-5 unless it is a copy of the Singer 42-5.

[Trox]

Hi Sandy.

I know the houses are small in Holland; I have been living 5 years in Antwerp. I worked as a truck driver in my younger days and I used to drive much on Holland. I have seen Amsterdam’s smallest house, I hope you do not live there. We got more space here in Norway, but I am still able to fill up my house to.

The Old machines are no junk, although I have newer machines I still use my Old Adler 5 every day. It never misses a stitch; it is of much better quality than today’s machines.

According to my information the only bobbins from Adler 104 that fits Adler 4 (and 45K) is the A. 104-2. (I am not 100% sure about this; it is hard to get information). You must ask for the 104 small shuttle bobbins. Otherwise, The Dürkopp Adler part number for the bobbins is 005002420 (original old Adler 4 and 5 part number is 05242)

I am buying a new Japanese Hirose shuttle for my old 5 from an English firm. If you change much from thin to thick thread it is best to have two shuttles, otherwise it is easy to destroy the bobbin tension. (The machine is obsolete and parts are very hard to find, you most buy a complete shuttle from similar product)

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/default.aspx GBP 9, 80 for 4 bobbins. If you need a manual please give me your e-mail (for your security in this format; "your name att domain dot com") or send it in a PM.

Here is an Adler 4-4 with a cabinet for small workshops.

Trox

To upload pictures: Take a picture and store it in your computer, remeber the folder you stored it in. Before you add your reply here you will see a button "Click to attach files" click and a box with folders appear. Find your folder and file, mark it and click OK. Try to keep the pictures small, or they will huge on the board.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Hi Trox,

I was lucky enough to have a play with a 42-5 recently (a pin was missing from the shuttle) and yes I know there are differences which is why I pointed out that it is possibly the machine Singer copied. The handwheel is certainly not a Singer but accessories like lube pots are not always original.

Hi Darren,

I do not know if, or what Singer copied to make the 42-5. But the 42-5 looks different. It has a rounded needle plate an alternating

pressers. I have only seen the 42-5 in a picture, but it is different in many other ways to. The lube pot, and so on. I am sure you know your Singers , But this machine is a Adler 4 or a 45K. I will bet 5 Eur it is a Adler class 4.

Trox:no:

[sandyt]

Hi there,

Luckily I don't live in the smallest house of Holland!! Love the Belgian Ardennes. Not allot of true nature around here. Only small houses, haha...

Made a picture of the shuttle. It says KAW??? Hope it helps.

I ordered a few bobbins, hope the will fit.

Do you happen to know if Necchi made machines like these?Came across one and I am interested in that one too, because it has a table and an electric motor. I can put both machines on it. The more machines the better!! My nine year old son on one side and me on the other would be great!

Sandy.

[Trox]

Hello Sandy,

The Ardennes is great; we use to go paddling kayaks in the river up in Malmedy. 60 - 70 neighbors from our Buren in Antwerp, we rented a buses and I was always the driver. Great fun. Almost every weekend we did something together with our neighbors. I really miss my time there.

We have great nature in Norway to, but we newer go in a flock. We want to be alone in the wilderness and get pissed if we meet some body. I am going up north to fish to night, the summer arrived at last.

Back to our tread;

Yes this is proof enough; the shuttle is an open frame Adler.

I believe KAW is short for Kochs Adler Werke. The name of the company was Kochs Adler Nähmaschinewerke AG Bielefeld from 1913 to 1971. In 1971 the company was reformed to Kochs Adler AG And in 1990 to Dürkopp Adler AG (source http://www.duerkopp-adler.com/en/main/company/chronic.html )

Adler was just a Name for the machines. This places your machine to be from the years between 1971 to 1913, I can not find any information about when they change the decals on their machines. But on my oldest Adler machine it has an Eagle with “Kochs Adler Nähmaschinewerke AG Bielefeld “ around. The newer machines only have “Adler” printed on them. Here is some info on the machine classes (for export machines, the list is not complete): http://www.duerkopp-adler.com/export/sites/duerkoppadler/commons/download/download-text-attachments/hist_kl.pdf.

The sewing machine production was started up again after WW2 in 1945, I believe it is likely they changed their logo then. Yours is maybe a pre war machine.

Anybody who have more information about this please let us know.

I do not know much about Necchi machines and I never seen models like the Adler 4 or 5, but I know they make models like the class 30 and Singer 29K shoe repair machines.

If you want the manual send me your email in a PM.

Greetings

Trox

[sandyt]

Thanks!!!

Good/friendly neighbours makes life so much more fun.

Hope you cauhgt some big ones!!

Yesterday I caught a whole bunch of nothing. It was a sad day.......... .

I am happy to know it's an Adler. I could never identify it myself. So thanks again.

This old machine infected me a little. I have set my eyes on another adler(or Necchi) and/or a pearson no.6. Both 100 euro's each. I will say it again, if only I had some more space....haha.

i would love to have a manual, I will pm you.

Greetings from Holland.

Sandy.

[CowboyBob]

Sandy,

Get that Pearson as soon as you can,they are worth at least 2000 euros over here.

Have any pics of the Necchi?

Bob