Packing Down The Shearling

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

This topic has been discussed a bit before, but specifics haven't been given. When a saddle is new, the shearling will make the saddle ride a bit higher till it gets packed down a bit. How many hours riding time do you experienced saddle makers think it takes to get the saddle to sit down on the back the way it will be long term?

[bruce johnson]

Denise, You have seen the pics from the first ride in my new saddle. It sat up about 3-1/2 fingers at the lowest pint of the gullet. Maybe 10 hours and it is down to 2-1/2.

[Billy H]

I have found that with new saddles and a broken in pad or blanket will take about ten rides or so. Those rides need to have moist heat to penetrate to the shearling and skirt .

[Blake]

A spray bottle of very warm water with a few drops of dawn detergent works well to cut down on the break in period. Spray the fleece liberally just before the first saddling. This will break the surface tension of the lanolin and allow the fleece to settle in at a faster rate. Depending on the duration of the first ride it might need to be repeated. This has always worked well for me and my clients agree.

My $.02 worth.

Blake

[Denise]

Blake,

Why does it need to be Dawn? I have heard about Dawn being used in a number of places but have yet to hear why it is different than any other detergent.

Thanks,

Denise

[Blake]

Blake,

Why does it need to be Dawn? I have heard about Dawn being used in a number of places but have yet to hear why it is different than any other detergent.

Thanks,

Denise

It doesn't have to be Dawn. I just prefer the original Dawn that is unscented to avoid attracting any critters to the fleece when it is in the tack room. Its also what I keep on hand to use in my casing water to break surface tension and make the water a little wetter. I used original Ivory for years but Dawn is easier to find in the unscented version. Dawn and Ivory both have a leather friendly Ph and doesn't seem to remove any tanning oils and dry out the leather.

Blake

[Denise]

Thanks Blake. I've wondered that for a long time!

[kseidel]

The amount of time and degree of compression depends heavily on the length and density of the sheepskin. A 3/4" shearling that is sparsely haired, will matte down in a couple of hours. A 1" shearling, densely haired, will take weeks of hard riding to compress and will always retain some degree of cushion. For my saddles, it takes about 100 hours of riding to achieve normal compression that will then maintain for many years.

Keith

[Steve]

The amount of time and degree of compression depends heavily on the length and density of the sheepskin. A 3/4" shearling that is sparsely haired, will matte down in a couple of hours. A 1" shearling, densely haired, will take weeks of hard riding to compress and will always retain some degree of cushion. For my saddles, it takes about 100 hours of riding to achieve normal compression that will then maintain for many years.

Keith

Keith, if you don't mind me asking, where are you getting your shearlings? I've been less than satisfied with what I've been getting.

Thanks; Steve

[kseidel]

Keith, if you don't mind me asking, where are you getting your shearlings? I've been less than satisfied with what I've been getting.

Thanks; Steve

Steve, I have been using Lazy M woolskins, a division of Nugget Company, for several years now. They really are superior! Every once in a while I will get one or two that are not up to standard (no better than the Nugget Brand), and I send them back for replacement. They are good about sending me what I expect from them. They are quite expensive. I think they are worth the extra. Keith

[Ben]

When I built my 3^rd saddle I lined it with 1" bark tanned shearling from Bowden. I completed it and started riding it in the middle of March. The shearling was packed down the middle of June. I put on 300-400 miles of trail riding and I think that would correspond to around 100 hours of riding.

Ben

[bruce johnson]

This is far from a scientific study, but this is a progression of my own saddle. The constants are the same horse and same pads. The left side view is after the first ride. It had about 3-1/2 fingers of clearance. The gullet views were last week and it has now had about 30 hours on it. The clearance is right at 2 fingers. The shearling is a Lazy M, tree is 6-1/2 finished gullet about 4-3/8 handhole width.

The geometry in me says that just packing the wool should not allow that much of a drop. Other things are at work here - skirts spreading? plate rigging pulling in more? Latigos pulled tighter? Just from my impression, the saddle rode a little looser for the first five rides or so. More side to side maybe, and that has gone away. Pretty even sweat too.

[Denise]

This raises some interesting issues for people trying new saddles on horses to check for fit. 1 1/4 fingers - depending on the size of your hands - will be an inch plus. If they get it to fit "right" at the beginning, it could actually end up being, not just too low, but also too wide so the front will tip down and mess up the whole bar contact area as a result. Curious what others say about their experiences in new saddles and how they "work in" - and the fit considerations that go along with that.

[kseidel]

My experiences are similar to Bruce's. About 1.5 - 2 inches of settling of the front of the saddle from new to packed woolskin. Of course, the back settles too, but not as measurable. The saddle settles overall throughout the back quite a bit from new to "broken in". It is difficult to accurately fit a new saddle to a horse by trying it out. Seems best to have a competent saddler that you can trust to construct the saddle to properly fit your horses. A new saddle would not show much sign of improper fit initially. Once broken in, it would not be very "new."

Keith

[hidepounder]

Blake,

Why does it need to be Dawn? I have heard about Dawn being used in a number of places but have yet to hear why it is different than any other detergent.

Thanks,

Denise

Denise......I can't speak directly to the use of Dawn in this instance, however I am an advocate in the use of Dawn or Joy dish soap (that's what I use the most) in the water that I apply to my leather for tooling. These soaps contain detergents which are surfactants. Surfactants break the surface tension of water allowing for a more complete absorption by the cells of the leather, enhancing the "casing" process. So I'm going to hazard a guess that the same or similar principles may apply with the fibers of the wool........I don't know if that makes any sense but it sure sounds impressive, don't you think? LOL!

Edited August 22, 2011 by hidepounder

[Denise]

Sounds impressive, all right, and it makes sense. But do other dish soaps work as well, or is there something in those brands that is different than say, Sunlight or Palmolive?

[Billy H]

Hey Keith,

You bring up a great point about putting new saddles on a horses back; really hard to tell if that saddle will fit well after it has had a chance to break in. In fact I have read more than once of folks on this forum who have purchased a saddle that they thought fit good, rode it several hours and found problems. Trying to return a used saddle is very difficult. There are great benefits to having a custom saddle built from the Saddle Tree up. Billy

[hidepounder]

Sounds impressive, all right, and it makes sense. But do other dish soaps work as well, or is there something in those brands that is different than say, Sunlight or Palmolive?

I would love to dazzle you further with my vast and thorough knowledge of this subject, however I must confess that I really don't have a clue! My standard answer on the rather frequent occasion that I find myself in this situation is..."that was how I was taught!"

Edited August 23, 2011 by hidepounder

[kseidel]

Hey Keith,

You bring up a great point about putting new saddles on a horses back; really hard to tell if that saddle will fit well after it has had a chance to break in. In fact I have read more than once of folks on this forum who have purchased a saddle that they thought fit good, rode it several hours and found problems. Trying to return a used saddle is very difficult. There are great benefits to having a custom saddle built from the Saddle Tree up. Billy

Billy,

There is a lot of trial and error (sometimes more error) in learning how to fit saddles to horses relative to specific performances. Denise's original question about specifics regarding packing down sheepskin and how it affects the fit of the saddle is something all saddlemakers should know. We makers with extensive training and personal experience sometimes take this knowledge for granted. There are a lot of novice makers, both of saddles and trees, that do not know these fundamental basics, and their clients become their unsuspecting beta testers. It is becoming more and more apparent to me that we need to better educate the next generation in order to sustain and improve our trade.

You also bring up a good point about returning a used saddle. If we "guarantee" saddle fit, how far does our guarantee extend? Are we willing to admit our failure after 3 months of riding? We could no longer resell the saddle as "new." But most saddles that are close to the correct size and angles will fit acceptably when new and not settled into their final fit. It is not until then that the problems may surface. It is only through experience that one can confidently build for that final fitting.

Keith

P.S. Sales people also have a responsibility to properly assist a buyer in getting that new saddle that will actually fit for the duration.

[kseidel]

It doesn't have to be Dawn. I just prefer the original Dawn that is unscented to avoid attracting any critters to the fleece when it is in the tack room. Its also what I keep on hand to use in my casing water to break surface tension and make the water a little wetter. I used original Ivory for years but Dawn is easier to find in the unscented version. Dawn and Ivory both have a leather friendly Ph and doesn't seem to remove any tanning oils and dry out the leather.

Blake

I would like to know more about this soap in your casing water. I have found some advantage to "soft" water, but do not know about using soap in the water. Would you elaborate please?

Thanks,

Keith

[Blake]

I would like to know more about this soap in your casing water. I have found some advantage to "soft" water, but do not know about using soap in the water. Would you elaborate please?

Thanks,

Keith

Its pretty much as Hide Pounder stated. It breaks the surface tension of the water and makes it "Wetter" or better able to flow through the natural oils and fiber of the leather.

The same principles are used in spraying herbicides. Some people use a product called "Photo flow" which is used in dark room processing of photographs but I noticed light corrosion around the bottle caps which make s me think that it may be acidic.

The unscented soaps work best for me. Another old trick learned years ago is to use a lathered up sponge Using Ivory bar soap and spread it over the surface of the leather to be tooled. It lubricates it somewhat and reduces drag on the knife when you sometimes get those hides that we all try to avoid. It doesn't stain the leather or have any effect on how it oils up after tooling.

Blake

[kseidel]

Its pretty much as Hide Pounder stated. It breaks the surface tension of the water and makes it "Wetter" or better able to flow through the natural oils and fiber of the leather.

The same principles are used in spraying herbicides. Some people use a product called "Photo flow" which is used in dark room processing of photographs but I noticed light corrosion around the bottle caps which make s me think that it may be acidic.

The unscented soaps work best for me. Another old trick learned years ago is to use a lathered up sponge Using Ivory bar soap and spread it over the surface of the leather to be tooled. It lubricates it somewhat and reduces drag on the knife when you sometimes get those hides that we all try to avoid. It doesn't stain the leather or have any effect on how it oils up after tooling.

Blake

Thanks Blake,

How do you use it? Spray bottle? Soak tank? How much? I have used Calgon to make hard water softer and that works well for lubricating the leather. May have similar properties... I will try the soap trick.

Keith

[hidepounder]

I would like to know more about this soap in your casing water. I have found some advantage to "soft" water, but do not know about using soap in the water. Would you elaborate please?

Thanks,Keith

Keith....I've tried all kinds of casing solutions which contain a variety of products like Lexol, Listerine, glycerine, liquid dish soap, and a variety of others products in various recipies. Some worked okay, some didn't work at all and some were just too much trouble or expensive for the outcome. So I've found myself reverting back to what I was taught years ago which is to add a few drops of Joy to the water on my bench. I will add a few squirts to my water in the sink when I'm casing my leather. The other thing that I have been adding is a few drops of liquid glycerine to my bench water (both the bowl and my spray bottle). The first time I added glycerine to my water, the piece I was tooling seemed to really cut like butter, so glycerine became a permanent thing for me. I suspect that the side I was using was just one of those really nice tooling sides, but I don't care....the liquid glycerine is cheap and easy to add so I'm sticking with it. When I used the Lexol, I felt like I was getting more color in my tooling, the formula called for a lot of Lexol which is expensive and it was kind of a pain to pour it all into a pan, dip my leather, then pour it all back into plastic bottles. And of course after a while it got dirty and so.....it just seemed like more trouble that it was worth. As a result of using those solutions, however, I have learned to keep some Listerine in a spray bottle to use on leather which I have cased and then for what ever reason didn't get to for a couple of days. I can mist the leather lightly and then return it to my bag or casing box and I know it won't mold for a few days until I can get to it.

Another old trick learned years ago is to use a lathered up sponge Using Ivory bar soap and spread it over the surface of the leather to be tooled. It lubricates it somewhat and reduces drag on the knife when you sometimes get those hides that we all try to avoid. It doesn't stain the leather or have any effect on how it oils up after tooling.

Blake

I use Ivory bar soap too Blake. I keep a cake of it in one of those plastic travel containers and when ever I get one of those acidic hides, I will use a trimmed piece of wool skin to make some lather and work it into the leather.

Edited August 23, 2011 by hidepounder

[Blake]

Hi Keith

I think Hidepounder pretty much covered it in his last post.

I will add one more thing. This of course depends on your water source. I always get my water for casing from the hot water tap. Minerals tend to settle when water is heated and of course accumulate in the bottom of the water heater . You will get less minerals in the casing water from this source. This is especially true if you are in an area with high limestone content in the water.

I also agree with Hidepounder about some things being more trouble than their worth so I keep it as simple as possible so I can spend my time at the bench.

Blake