Outrageous!

[wildrose]

MY point is that NO ONE should have the right to tell MY FAMILY how to pray at my funeral. And that funeral prayer should NOT have to have prior approval. I don't care if they're praying to Allah or the Goddess or whoever. Now, I don't know, maybe military funerals are run differently? But let me tell you, I don't think it's right to tell a family how to celebrate the passing of their loved one.

[HellfireJack]

Luckily, wildrose, that's not actually what's happening. I agree with you and, if you look into the matter, so does the VA.

The people who had to submit their speeches and prayers in this instance are the Veterans of Foreign Wars, The American Legion and the National Memorial Ladies. These are not family members. Of course this won't stop random Christians who want to press the issue, which is already happening.

From the VA itself.

"“The idea that invoking the name of God or Jesus is banned at VA national cemeteries is blatantly false,” said VA Press Secretary Josh Taylor in a written statement to Fox News Radio. “The truth is, VA’s policy protects veterans’ families’ rights to pray however they choose at our national cemeteries.”

The idea that they've banned families from prayer is just a knee jerk reaction to not allowing non-family member organizations from injecting their beliefs into funerals without prior approval.

[Lobo]

No offense taken, and no offense intended. The major point that seems to have been missed is that constitutional rights, such as those affirmed in the First Amendment, cease to be rights and become privileges when official permission must be obtained prior to exercising those rights.

HellfireJack is correct in that the current plaintiffs in litigation are VFW, American Legion, and the Memorial Ladies, thus the members of those organizations are seldom (if ever) related to the veterans being interred or their families. However, those organizations are specifically authorized by public law to perform prescribed military honors at burials of veterans, and those honors are only performed when requested by the decedents' families at the time that interment in a national cemetary is applied for. Those organizations do not attend or participate in any veterans' burial unless they have been requested to do so.

The argument that persons engaging in offensive activities during a funeral or interment service be restricted is valid. Such conduct is also covered more than adequately by appropriate laws pertaining to disorderly conduct and other criminal acts.

In the situation under discussion we are looking at organizations created and chartered by the United States Congress and specifically tasked by federal laws and the charters of those organizations with rendering military honors at services for deceased military personnel whose next of kin or designated personal representative have specifically requested their participation. In short, the veterans' families have requested that established rituals be performed at the graveside service and an appointed government official has actively prevented those honors from being performed.

Also to be noted is the fact that a federal judge has entered a temporary injunction preventing Arleen Ocasio from interfering in these ceremonies, pending the outcome of the lawsuit. Ms. Ocasio is clearly in contempt of court for continuing to violate the orders of the court.

This situation is much different than an intentionally disruptive or offensive demonstration perpetrated by some who might intrude upon a veteran's family and friends in a time of grief.

By the way, I am a 2-tour Vietnam veteran, my brother is a Vietnam veteran, my son is a Gulf War veteran, my father was a WW2 veteran, my grandfather was a WW1 veteran, my great-grandfather died in the Civil War less than 50 miles from the family farm, and that farm consists of land granted to an earlier ancestor in lieu of salary due for service in the Revolutionary War. Perhaps I have some standing to demand that VA officials abide by the expressed wishes of families for the funeral services of their loved ones in national cemeteries, including the performance of duly adopted military honors by Congressionally-chartered service organizations.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Lobo

[wildrose]

Both of you have made valid points, and have managed to do it without this descending into a heated battle - which is always good! Debate is not bad when tempers can be kept down. On a personal line, I stand with Lobo.

[HellfireJack]

I'm glad you and Wildrose are devout in your belief that your own funeral should be the way you want it. I don't see the VA stopping that from happening and I see them as actually working towards ensuring it happens the way you want by not allowing others to make your funeral what they want.

To be duly authorized to do something doesn't give you a ability to do it anywhere and at any time you wish and it doesn't necessarily grant you any rights. Priests are authorized to perform marriage ceremonies and yet they cannot force a marriage ceremony on two people who don't want to be married by the priest. It's easy to show that authorization has nothing to do with this situation. I'm authorized to act as a notary. I can't run around forcing people to allow me to notarize things and then force them to pay me a dollar each time it happens. Pretty much all of us are authorized to drive a car and yet we cannot drive that car down the sidewalk of a public street. There are limits to all authorization.

It seems to me you're thinking entirely about your own situation and completely forgetting the situation of millions of other soldiers who will fall and be buried. Do they not have a say in how their funerals are done because you're OK with some third party group praying at your funeral? All other funerals for fallen soldiers must have third part prayers because you wish it at yours? Are you saying I don't have a say in mine when I don't want something to happen? This seems to be your implication. Just because you want something to happen doesn't mean every soldier does. I don't care how many people in your family served. That doesn't change the fact that you do not share the views of every American soldier. That's easy enough to show.

You do have a say in your own funeral. I completely agree with you. That alone implies you or your family wants something to happen. Not a single person, the VA director included, is saying it's different or forcing it.

Sometimes these groups do not consult the families on their wishes. It doesn't matter who chartered them. They will perform their services whether asked or not. So the VA is ensuring a problem doesn't happens. Obviously a problem has occurred where it was necessary to enact this. I kind of see it as a gray area that has been un-"gray"-ed and some people who were using that gray area just don't like it.

The situation is exactly the same as any other disruption or demonstration though. Their appearance is entirely voluntary and if the family does not wish them to be present then they should not be present. If the family does not wish them to talk about their gods then they shouldn't be talking about them. Any complication arising from one of these groups' involvement falls on those who run the cemetery who are basically forced to allow these volunteer groups to perform their services.

The only injunction the courts have out stopping the anyone from acting is about not stopping a reverend (connected to one of the groups) who is purposely forcing the issue. That's rather non-Christian if you ask me. I don't recall anywhere Jesus told his followers to go disrespect the dead by forcing political action at their funerals just to make a point.

When it comes down to it no right of ours, including our first amendment right, allows us to just force our religions onto others if they do not want it.

Either way that's about it from me on the matter. I've lain my opinions pretty cleanly. I can see where you're coming from but knowing not everyone thinks and acts like you keeps me from agreeing with you on this.

[wildrose]

Oh, I DO agree, no one's beliefs should be forced on another, esp. at a funeral. My point was, I don't think it's right to have to have a prayer approved by a third party IF the family has invited the reverend/rabbi/whatever to be there. Now, if the family has not approved the speaker, why is the speaker there at all? Isn't that like crashing a wedding reception and doing a toast? Just seems weird to me. But again, maybe I'm not understanding how military funerals are arranged.

[Lobo]

OK, I will try one more time to put all of this into perspective:

1. Honorably discharged US veteran passes away.

2. Veteran's family/next of kin/personal representative submits request for interment at national cemetery.

3. Veteran's family/next of kin/personal representative requests military honors by VFW and/or American Legion team, as authorized by congressional charter and federal law.

4. Hearse arrives at national cemetery containing the veteran's remains for interment.

5. Family and friends arrive at national cemetery for the purpose of participating in the ceremonies.

6. Ritual team (VFW, American Legion, perhaps both) arrive at the national cemetery.

7. Family's pastor, rabbi, imam, medicine man, voodoo priestess, or other religious leader arrives at the national cemetery.

8. The Memorial Ladies arrive at the national cemetery.

9. Ritual team is prohibited from saying the words "God", "Jesus Christ", "Allah", "Great Spirit", "Holy Father", "Earth Goddess", etc.

10. Pastor, rabbi, imam, medicine man, voodoo priestess, or other religious leader is either (a) not permitted to pray unless the prayer was submitted in advance in writing, pre-approved for content, and/or censored by national cemetery director; or ( permitted to offer prayer that has passed approval for content by a government official.

11. The Memorial Ladies are forbidden to say the words "God Bless you" to family members and friends.

12. Military ritual team is not permitted to say the words "God Bless you" when presenting the burial flag to widow, son, father, mother, etc.

13. Families complaints reach a Texas congressman.

14. Ritual teams complaints reach a Texas congressman.

15. Memorial Ladies complaints reach a Texas congressman.

16. Texas Congressman attends a burial service and personally observes national cemetery director interfering with services and prayers.

17. Lawsuit filed citing First Amendment issues and federal law.

18. Federal judge issues an injunction forbidding interference with services pending resolution of the issues at trial.

19. National cemetery director ignores court order and continues the interference.

20. The Houston National Cemetery chapel is converted to a storage room, denying families from any facility for communal prayer, devotion, reflection, etc.

There certainly doesn't seem to be much difficulty in seeing just whose rights are being violated, who is being imposed upon, or what the source of the problem is, at least not to me. It appears to be nothing more than politically correct "tolerance" being imposed by official intolerance.

Others may see this as the government protecting people from some imposition of religious content on unwilling participants. I view this as unlawful and unconstitutional government intrusion on the private affairs and practices of citizens, and doing so during a time of loss and grief.

By the way, I just read that the clergy has been banned from the planned events at the World Trade Center on 9/11/2011, tenth anniversary of the most deadly attack on US soil in our history. Anecdotal certainly, but such things might be signs of a pattern of government activity.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Lobo

[HellfireJack]

You're saying that these are events from one actual funeral? I think you're pulling our legs here or just asking us to accept many events that happened over a period of time, or not even at an actual funeral, as occurring during one funeral.

What funeral did this happen at? Can you show us the story?

I think you're confusing these people's outrage with being told how the VA wants these private groups to perform their free volunteer services with actual events that occurred.

The pastor who said a prayer was simply not allowed to do so "in Jesus name" at a public event. This wasn't at a funeral as far as I know. It was a Memorial Day service at the cemetery. He was allowed to say the prayer just not to attribute it solely to his religion. Prayers at public events by private groups should be all inclusive.

[wildrose]

Firefighters and First Responders aren't allowed at the WTC memorial event either, from what I've read.

[Lobo]

You're saying that these are events from one actual funeral? I think you're pulling our legs here or just asking us to accept many events that happened over a period of time, or not even at an actual funeral, as occurring during one funeral.

What funeral did this happen at? Can you show us the story?

I think you're confusing these people's outrage with being told how the VA wants these private groups to perform their free volunteer services with actual events that occurred.

The pastor who said a prayer was simply not allowed to do so "in Jesus name" at a public event. This wasn't at a funeral as far as I know. It was a Memorial Day service at the cemetery. He was allowed to say the prayer just not to attribute it solely to his religion. Prayers at public events by private groups should be all inclusive.

HellfireJack:

You seem to be taking this matter quite personally, and you appear to be intentionally argumentative and, quite frankly borderline rude, so I will withdraw from this discussion and leave the field to you. Anyone who wishes to determine the facts of the case in federal court can easily find those. Anyone who wants to examine the evidence can easily do so.

You may do as you wish. I hope that you will take a deep breath or two, perhaps allow some of your anger and hostility to vent, then maybe you will be able to see things more clearly.

Best regards.