Second Holster Completed

[mlapaglia]

Pancake Holster for a S&W M&P 9mm

8/9 oz leather. Pattern changed to remove the angles that bothered everyone. Let me know what you think about the pattern.

Stiching on the front side is pretty good, Back side I had a really bad day while working on this one. Good thing its for me.

All in all for a second try I'm happy with it but I need more practice. Hopefully the next one will be better still.

FYI the line down the middle of the back side is an example of how bad a dayI was having when I started this one. I should have walked away and restarted the next day.

Feel free to point things out so I learn.

If you see anything you like feel free to mention that too.

Michael

[dickf]

Hi!

I think your second try looks very nice, especially considering your experience is limited. I would point out that I don't think that's 8/9oz leather - looks more like 6/7 or 7/8 at most. I'd also say that you are getting the leather much too wet and/or beginning to mold the holster too soon. You can easily clean up the slots with a 1/4" sanding drum on a dremel tool which will help a carry belt thread through them (the 1/4 tool will open the slots up a little more than 1/4" in ttl width). The pattern itself is solid, I think, and the only thing other than what I've already pointed out, is that you could stand to bring the stitch line in on front of the trigger guard as much as it is in the rear. Does that make sense?

Either way, you're clearly picking it up fast - good job!

Cheers!

[mlapaglia]

Hi!

I think your second try looks very nice, especially considering your experience is limited. I would point out that I don't think that's 8/9oz leather - looks more like 6/7 or 7/8 at most. I'd also say that you are getting the leather much too wet and/or beginning to mold the holster too soon. You can easily clean up the slots with a 1/4" sanding drum on a dremel tool which will help a carry belt thread through them (the 1/4 tool will open the slots up a little more than 1/4" in ttl width). The pattern itself is solid, I think, and the only thing other than what I've already pointed out, is that you could stand to bring the stitch line in on front of the trigger guard as much as it is in the rear. Does that make sense?

Either way, you're clearly picking it up fast - good job!

Cheers!

Thanks for the suggestions and the comments. It really is 8/9 oz leather. I checked it with a caliper before I started to make sure I had grabbed the correct shoulder. What made you think it was too wet when molded? I did have to mold it twice as the first time it was so tight it took two of us to get the model gun out of the holster.

I understand what you meant about the stitching around the trigger guard. Ill watch that next time.

Thanks again for the comments.

Michael

[marine mp]

Mike, All in all...a great job!!! As for me, it is a little to shiny and the rear-most part of the holster, by the back belt-loop, could stand to be cut just a tad lower to accomodate a more user-friendly purchase on the stocks. Just my observations...may not be true at all. We are our most harsh critics!!!!! Most folks you make a holster for are tickled pink with the things we most likely would toss to the wolves. Thats whats nice about a hand-made, hand sewn piece. There will be mistakes and thats what makes it a piece of art. Some may disagree with that statement as the only thing that leaves their shop must be perfect, without blemish. My-self, I strive for perfection, but haven't quite made it yet, and never will. Anyways, Semper-fi Mike

[mlapaglia]

Mike, All in all...a great job!!! As for me, it is a little to shiny and the rear-most part of the holster, by the back belt-loop, could stand to be cut just a tad lower to accomodate a more user-friendly purchase on the stocks. Just my observations...may not be true at all. We are our most harsh critics!!!!! Most folks you make a holster for are tickled pink with the things we most likely would toss to the wolves. Thats whats nice about a hand-made, hand sewn piece. There will be mistakes and thats what makes it a piece of art. Some may disagree with that statement as the only thing that leaves their shop must be perfect, without blemish. My-self, I strive for perfection, but haven't quite made it yet, and never will. Anyways, Semper-fi Mike

Mike,

I agree with the shine comment, all it has on it is Lexol and then a coat of leather balm with atom wax. This piece of leather was real shiny from the start. I think I will try to make it more of a semi gloss with a little alcohol and then more lexol. Ill try it on the back first to see how it looks. You are the second person to suggest that its a little tight at the back of the holster near the gun butt. I have a lot of room to grab the gun but I may trim the curve a little anyway on the next one. It couldn't hurt to have a little more room.

Thanks for the comments.

[steelhawk]

I think you are getting better and will continue to improve. I think more rounded corners look better. The right curves have a nice visual appeal. I got some french curves and use them during holster design.

You will get better with boning, although better leather helps. My boning suddenly got lots better when I started using Hermann Oak instead of Tandy stuff.

[katsass]

Michael, you have done pretty damned well on this piece. You have a reasonable amount of leather around your belt loops ... where, in time, all of the weight will try to pull that shooter out and away from your body. That is one place newer makers seem to mess up often. You also seem to understand that the 'wings' are only out there to provide a place for the belt loops, and more leather is only a detriment to the function of this type of holster. You do need to follow the contour of the pistol a bit closer for your stitching on the trigger guard side, and also bring it in a bit closer to the gun IMO. I personally don't particularly care for exaggerated 'boning' or over molding. I see no use in it. You don't really need to read the markings on your gun through the leather. I know that many say that it increases retention, and it does .... initially. To my way of thinking, and in my experience, every time the gun goes in or out of the holster, you are pushing the indented leather around the ejection port and trigger guard out of place .... moving (what should be) pretty rigid leather. Constant movement of formed leather softens it, breaks it down, and eventually it can become as floppy as an old dishrag. Look at how much leather is around your gun. With that stitched closely enough, molded (by hand) firmly around your shooter, and tied to your waist with a good belt (or even an old chunk of hemp rope) the gun is going to stay in place ....'tain't going nowhere 'till you pull it!. Now, these are just the ramblings and the applied logic of a grumpy old man. Enjoy you chosen endeavors. Mike

P.S. I don't like leather to look like plastic.

Edited September 16, 2011 by katsass

[mlapaglia]

Michael, you have done pretty damned well on this piece. You have a reasonable amount of leather around your belt loops ... where, in time, all of the weight will try to pull that shooter out and away from your body. That is one place newer makers seem to mess up often. You also seem to understand that the 'wings' are only out there to provide a place for the belt loops, and more leather is only a detriment to the function of this type of holster. You do need to follow the contour of the pistol a bit closer for your stitching on the trigger guard side, and also bring it in a bit closer to the gun IMO. I personally don't particularly care for exaggerated 'boning' or over molding. I see no use in it. You don't really need to read the markings on your gun through the leather. I know that many say that it increases retention, and it does .... initially. To my way of thinking, and in my experience, every time the gun goes in or out of the holster, you are pushing the indented leather around the ejection port and trigger guard out of place .... moving (what should be) pretty rigid leather. Constant movement of formed leather softens it, breaks it down, and eventually it can become as floppy as an old dishrag. Look at how much leather is around your gun. With that stitched closely enough, molded (by hand) firmly around your shooter, and tied to your waist with a good belt (or even an old chunk of hemp rope) the gun is going to stay in place ....'tain't going nowhere 'till you pull it!. Now, these are just the ramblings and the applied logic of a grumpy old man. Enjoy you chosen endeavors. Mike

P.S. I don't like leather to look like plastic.

Mike,

Thanks for your comments. I believe the plastic look may be a result of camera processing. The leather only has lexol and Leather balm with Atom wax on it. It does not look that shiny in real life. I have included a photo with all the processing of the camera turned off. It is closer to the actual look of the leather. Please let me know if it solves the plastic look.

I agree with the stitch line comments but am not sure how to solve it. Due to a sill math error on my point the stitch like was only 15mm from the gun. This is 1/2 gun width plus the leather thickness. I think the problem is that I didnt get the gun pushed down far enough. Had it gone in a little farther it would be closer to the stitch line around the trigger guard. Its a learning process. I now know to make sure the gun does in deep enough. Your comments about it made me look and I see what you are referring to and think I know how ti solve it now.

I over molded this one. In fact originally it took two of us to get the gun out of the holster. I had molded the rail too well and it was holding the gun in place. I will definitely lighten it up on the next one. I have to admit that I like the ejection port well defined but that is a personal preference. I found that I can define it well and then push it back out from the inside and still maintain the appearance of a tightly molded port.

Thanks for the encouragement on this one. I will take your suggestions to heart on the next one.

Here is the new photo I mentioned at the first part of this post.

[markush]

I probably should be the last one to offer advice as I am just working on my third holster, but it does happen to be a full-size M&P if that counts for anything. I notice that the mag release button may be covered by leather. I personally would be sure that there was no leather covering the mag release.There is the possibility to activate that release upon re-holstering. Even if you molded the leather out away from the safety, over time it could soften enough to contact the release. The last thing I'd want was to have to draw the weapon for self defense and have the magazine hit the floor or to be carrying concealed and have a magazine hit the floor in front of a bunch of onlookers. Cutting the holster lower in that area would also go along with what others are saying about leaving more room to grip the pistol.

[mlapaglia]

I probably should be the last one to offer advice as I am just working on my third holster, but it does happen to be a full-size M&P if that counts for anything. I notice that the mag release button may be covered by leather. I personally would be sure that there was no leather covering the mag release.There is the possibility to activate that release upon re-holstering. Even if you molded the leather out away from the safety, over time it could soften enough to contact the release. The last thing I'd want was to have to draw the weapon for self defense and have the magazine hit the floor or to be carrying concealed and have a magazine hit the floor in front of a bunch of onlookers. Cutting the holster lower in that area would also go along with what others are saying about leaving more room to grip the pistol.

Your level of experience has nothing to do with your observation. I'm glad you brought up the issue. From the photos I agree that it looks close. On the back side where the mag release is there is 5/16th of an inch between it and the edge of the holster. On the next one I will probably give it a little more room just to be safe. This one is for my M&P so I can always trim it if needed. Due to the way the trigger guard hits the stitch line I dont see it moving down any.. Even with wear. Time will tell. I'd love to see your design if possible, It's helpful to see different ideas for the same gun.

My next one project is an Avenger style for this same gun.

Thanks for your ideas about the mag release.

Michael

Edited September 16, 2011 by mlapaglia

[Dwight]

Markush made an excellent observation on the mag release, . . . I had one lose a mag for me once, . . . really not a good thing.

My other comment would be to suggest that the next one you make, . . . put a sweat shield on it. I personally will not wear a holster without one, . . . as the weapon is forever digging in my side, . . . especially when belted in and driving.

You're doing good, . . . I was a whole bunch further up the number scale before I produced one that looked as good as this one.

May God bless,

Dwight

[TwinOaks]

A comment on your boning and its application for retention:

Molding the holster to the gun IS critical for good retention, so the more leather you have against the gun = better retention. As you saw with the accessory rail, you can have too much of a good thing. Concentrate on the leather INSIDE the holster and how it contacts the pistol...first. Then, once you've molded the leather to your satisfaction, you can add the aesthetic boning. Here's a tip that should help with that- less is more. While not a minimalist, I am most certainly a pragmatist. One or two strong lines can indicate the shape or features of the pistol without negatively effecting either the leather or the draw. As Katsass pointed out, repeated flexing of the leather pushed into the ejection port will break that leather down. If you're relying on that bit of molding for retention, you'll eventually lose the retentive properties of it. Waaaaaaaaay back when (and thankfully lost in the big crash of '07) I got into an argument with K-man (of K-D Holsters) about holster design. Well, quite a few failed holsters and many moons later, I caught him on here and offered the apology he deserved. He and Jeff (BOOMStick) correctly pointed out that the friction inside the holster is what counts. If boning increases the amount of leather against the flat surfaces (slide, frame, dust cover), then certainly give it a shot. But you don't need to (and shouldn't) try make a mold of the gun in leather. The outward appearance of a holster has very little to do with how well it retains a pistol. There's a tutorial on here by Jim Simmons on how to make a fitted holster in a western rig, and I've tried it. Just like the tutorial says, the holster will hold the gun very snugly.........and it has NO boning on it. That might be worth a read for you to see how the interior of the holster effects retention.

Here's the link to that tutorial - http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=19338

[mlapaglia]

Markush made an excellent observation on the mag release, . . . I had one lose a mag for me once, . . . really not a good thing.

My other comment would be to suggest that the next one you make, . . . put a sweat shield on it. I personally will not wear a holster without one, . . . as the weapon is forever digging in my side, . . . especially when belted in and driving.

You're doing good, . . . I was a whole bunch further up the number scale before I produced one that looked as good as this one.

May God bless,

Dwight

Dwight,

Great timing on the sweat shield comment. The photo below I had just finished when I read your post. Its the first draft of the same holster with a sweat shield. First thing I noticed is on the right where the shield leather meets the main body of the holster I am going to have to adjust that part. It needs less of a reverse curve there. No biggie, thats why I make patterns first.

A comment on your boning and its application for retention:

Molding the holster to the gun IS critical for good retention, so the more leather you have against the gun = better retention. As you saw with the accessory rail, you can have too much of a good thing. Concentrate on the leather INSIDE the holster and how it contacts the pistol...first. Then, once you've molded the leather to your satisfaction, you can add the aesthetic boning. Here's a tip that should help with that- less is more. While not a minimalist, I am most certainly a pragmatist. One or two strong lines can indicate the shape or features of the pistol without negatively effecting either the leather or the draw. As Katsass pointed out, repeated flexing of the leather pushed into the ejection port will break that leather down. If you're relying on that bit of molding for retention, you'll eventually lose the retentive properties of it. Waaaaaaaaay back when (and thankfully lost in the big crash of '07) I got into an argument with K-man (of K-D Holsters) about holster design. Well, quite a few failed holsters and many moons later, I caught him on here and offered the apology he deserved. He and Jeff (BOOMStick) correctly pointed out that the friction inside the holster is what counts. If boning increases the amount of leather against the flat surfaces (slide, frame, dust cover), then certainly give it a shot. But you don't need to (and shouldn't) try make a mold of the gun in leather. The outward appearance of a holster has very little to do with how well it retains a pistol. There's a tutorial on here by Jim Simmons on how to make a fitted holster in a western rig, and I've tried it. Just like the tutorial says, the holster will hold the gun very snugly.........and it has NO boning on it. That might be worth a read for you to see how the interior of the holster effects retention.

Here's the link to that tutorial - http://leatherworker...showtopic=19338

Mike,

As you and I had chatted before, this one is way too much boning. I think I was going for the same look as the first one I made but that was on 3/4 oz leather so it boned really well and very defined. I certainly over did it on this one. I made the mistake of equating lots of fitted lines with top quality leather work. Back when it was too tight I did go back in and push out the ejection port and the rail points. They still show from the outside but have very little effect on the gun.

Thanks for all your help on this one,. You and Katass and everyone else. It's great to have a place to go and ask questions and get a correct answer.

Michael

[jlaudio29]

Almost everything has been pointed out that needs to be accept what i will add.

Your belt slots appear to be way to close to the gun on both side, also you did not seem to curve/mold the slot to fit a belt while you were wet forming this. What will happen with this is that a regular 1/8th in belt will fit through the slots but when you actually got to wear the belt and holster you will find that the belt will push on outward on the back side of the holster while the outter side of the belt slots will be pulling in, this will create a ton of retention. the only way youd be able to get away with this setup with out having to curve/mold the belt slots is to have a flat backed holster to where the entire gun is biased to the outside. Now lets bring a gun belt into the picture, typically thicker than a standard belt, double in most cases, this will magnify the effects i have previously stated almost making it unable to draw the holster. You should make if you have no already some belt dummies of different thicknesses to use during the molding process, for a good example of what i am talking about a forum member named Particle has a 3 part holster tutorial up on youtube, during which he shows how to welt mold with the belt dummy.

I hope this makes sense, if it does not please let me know i can post pictures with examples of what i am talking about.

[mlapaglia]

Almost everything has been pointed out that needs to be accept what i will add.

Your belt slots appear to be way to close to the gun on both side, also you did not seem to curve/mold the slot to fit a belt while you were wet forming this. What will happen with this is that a regular 1/8th in belt will fit through the slots but when you actually got to wear the belt and holster you will find that the belt will push on outward on the back side of the holster while the outter side of the belt slots will be pulling in, this will create a ton of retention. the only way youd be able to get away with this setup with out having to curve/mold the belt slots is to have a flat backed holster to where the entire gun is biased to the outside. Now lets bring a gun belt into the picture, typically thicker than a standard belt, double in most cases, this will magnify the effects i have previously stated almost making it unable to draw the holster. You should make if you have no already some belt dummies of different thicknesses to use during the molding process, for a good example of what i am talking about a forum member named Particle has a 3 part holster tutorial up on youtube, during which he shows how to welt mold with the belt dummy.

I hope this makes sense, if it does not please let me know i can post pictures with examples of what i am talking about.

jlaudio2,

Your comment about the molding of the belt loop makes sense and its something I will make sure to do on the next one. I've seen the particle video so I can visualize what you are saying. Its a valid point and one I should have thought about. I will disagree with you on the need for more leather between the belt slot and the gun. In an earlier post katsass said, "You also seem to understand that the 'wings' are only out there to provide a place for the belt loops, and more leather is only a detriment to the function of this type of holster." I know this is an area where people disagree with the concept of more vs less space in that area. I agree with the thought that less is better than more as the holster ages. Everyone is allowed their own opinion on this point and I thank you for sharing yours.

Michael

Edited September 17, 2011 by mlapaglia

[Big O]

You are the second person to suggest that its a little tight at the back of the holster near the gun butt. I have a lot of room to grab the gun but I may trim the curve a little anyway on the next one. It couldn't hurt to have a little more room.

I've got to weigh in on this one.

It looks like there's MAYBE a half inch of clearance between the point where the trigger guard meets the frontstrap and the top edge of the holster.

Yes, the grip angles up and away, and there's room to wedge your hand partway up there. But that's not ideal.

What IS ideal is the ability to get a FULL FIRING GRIP (minus the finger on the trigger) while the pistol is still fully in the holster.

With the exception of hunting handguns, folks carry handguns in holsters because they anticipate the possibility of needing the handgun on very short notice to defend their lives. Under those circumstances, the draw is going to be as fast as they can manage it, probably faster than they've ever done it before, and a whole lot sloppier. The more advantages we can give them, the better. One such advantage is lessening the possibility of fumbling the pistol due to a haphazard, partial grip.

Yes, on a casual day at the range, it's no problem to wiggle the gun into a proper firing grip after you pull it leisurely from the holster. In extremis, though, it's a big problem.

[mlapaglia]

I've got to weigh in on this one.

It looks like there's MAYBE a half inch of clearance between the point where the trigger guard meets the frontstrap and the top edge of the holster.

Yes, the grip angles up and away, and there's room to wedge your hand partway up there. But that's not ideal.

What IS ideal is the ability to get a FULL FIRING GRIP (minus the finger on the trigger) while the pistol is still fully in the holster.

With the exception of hunting handguns, folks carry handguns in holsters because they anticipate the possibility of needing the handgun on very short notice to defend their lives. Under those circumstances, the draw is going to be as fast as they can manage it, probably faster than they've ever done it before, and a whole lot sloppier. The more advantages we can give them, the better. One such advantage is lessening the possibility of fumbling the pistol due to a haphazard, partial grip.

Yes, on a casual day at the range, it's no problem to wiggle the gun into a proper firing grip after you pull it leisurely from the holster. In extremis, though, it's a big problem.

Actually the clearence is .6" at the tightest. With my fat fingers I can grab it with no difficulty. That being said, I agree with the statements that it should have more room to better fit everyone in all situations. I have already corrected the curve on the one I am making with a sweat shield. I did not intend to imply that I was not taking the offered wisdom to heart. Those that say my angled version know that I listen to all suggestions.

Thanks Big-O for reaffirming the need for the correction. I appreciate it.

Michael

[dickf]

I realize I never responded...

I think it looks like it was too wet because, as you said, it was molded twice and is clearly overworked. I'd be interested to see your next one, as I'm sure you've learned a lot from this one.

On the subject of the 'wings' of the holster and belt slot placement:

I also agree than your slots, specifically the front slot, is too close to the gun. There is no way, when looking at the profile pic (number 4 in your first post of the thread) that I could thread my gun belt through the holster. jlaudio is correct that when worn, the user's curvature of the hip combined with the tension of the belt would put too much inside pressure on the holster. This does three things that are undesirable. First, it's terribly uncomfortable and can hurt your hip bone when worn for extended periods. Second, it puts too much force on the gun in the pocket and will make it an absolute bear to draw (if you can even get the gun out). Lastly, the holster will stick out like a sore thumb because it doesn't have enough leather fore and aft to curve to the user. I submit my crappy drawing to attempt to illustrate my point. The wings are not there to solely serve the slots a place to live - they are essential in setting the platform for the holster itself and dictating it's profile on the wearer.

The rear slot (which we want placed close to the trigger guard, but not too close) is responsible for helping to tuck the gun butt into the user's side. The front slot needs enough room to help the holster curve and keep the profile of the holster smooth and flowing with the contours of the body.

This advice is from experience - I have holsters in the bin that can't even be drawn from, let alone threaded with a gun belt.

Good luck!

[mlapaglia]

I realize I never responded...

I think it looks like it was too wet because, as you said, it was molded twice and is clearly overworked. I'd be interested to see your next one, as I'm sure you've learned a lot from this one.

On the subject of the 'wings' of the holster and belt slot placement:

I also agree than your slots, specifically the front slot, is too close to the gun. There is no way, when looking at the profile pic (number 4 in your first post of the thread) that I could thread my gun belt through the holster. jlaudio is correct that when worn, the user's curvature of the hip combined with the tension of the belt would put too much inside pressure on the holster. This does three things that are undesirable. First, it's terribly uncomfortable and can hurt your hip bone when worn for extended periods. Second, it puts too much force on the gun in the pocket and will make it an absolute bear to draw (if you can even get the gun out). Lastly, the holster will stick out like a sore thumb because it doesn't have enough leather fore and aft to curve to the user. I submit my crappy drawing to attempt to illustrate my point. The wings are not there to solely serve the slots a place to live - they are essential in setting the platform for the holster itself and dictating it's profile on the wearer.

The rear slot (which we want placed close to the trigger guard, but not too close) is responsible for helping to tuck the gun butt into the user's side. The front slot needs enough room to help the holster curve and keep the profile of the holster smooth and flowing with the contours of the body.

This advice is from experience - I have holsters in the bin that can't even be drawn from, let alone threaded with a gun belt.

Good luck!

It had to be molded twice because I did too good of a job molding the detail around the rail and the gun would not come out without two people pulling on it. There was an audible click as each protrusion when past the rail opening.

But I agree that I over molded that one. I learned not to, which is the point.

Thanks for the picture. My waist has a much larger front end :)but it made the point well.

The next one is on the table in paper form as we speak. Its an Avenger type. Once that is done I plan to do the pancake again. The practice will not hurt.

Michael