tostrap Report post Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Hi All I've been lurking here for a bit and have learned so much from this great community... I'm a total newb with this stuff and have been slowly acquiring tools for leatherwork... i recently managed to get a rose head knife and have slowly been 'refurbishing' it... the blade was fairly dull and pitted in some places ... i have been slowly grinding and sharpening it... just tonite i finally managed to get a nice even sharp edge all around the diameter of the blade. it had a nasty flat spot on one side that has now been remedied and i can't be any happier! however, the handle, which is rosewood, is cracked and i knew the handle was a bit loose... just now i managed to pull the blade out quite easily. it has some surface rust on it, but other than that seems to be ... ok? i love the idea of this knife being vintage... i'm not really into antiques or anything like that, but this knife is definitely an antique... so my dilemma... i purchased this knife as a tool to work... i love that its an antique... do i: 1. try to repair the handle (epoxy, etc. whatever) or 2. try to replace the handle (no longer 'antique'?) i have a new osborne #70 that works great too... but the minute i laid my hands on the rose... well... you know and besides... two head knives are better than one right? actually the rose's blade is smaller than the osborne's and is a better fit for the type of work that i'm doing for the moment... anyway, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! and if anyone has any pointers as to where i can either buy a replacement handle (rose wood), or make one (tutorial?) that would be greatly appreciated! thanks for your assistance! Edited October 3, 2011 by tostrap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luke Hatley Report post Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Hi All I've been lurking here for a bit and have learned so much from this great community... I'm a total newb with this stuff and have been slowly acquiring tools for leatherwork... i recently managed to get a rose head knife and have slowly been 'refurbishing' it... the blade was fairly dull and pitted in some places ... i have been slowly grinding and sharpening it... just tonite i finally managed to get a nice even sharp edge all around the diameter of the blade. it had a nasty flat spot on one side that has now been remedied and i can't be any happier! however, the handle, which is rosewood, is cracked and i knew the handle was a bit loose... just now i managed to pull the blade out quite easily. it has some surface rust on it, but other than that seems to be ... ok? i love the idea of this knife being vintage... i'm not really into antiques or anything like that, but this knife is definitely an antique... so my dilemma... i purchased this knife as a tool to work... i love that its an antique... do i: 1. try to repair the handle (epoxy, etc. whatever) or 2. try to replace the handle (no longer 'antique'?) i have a new osborne #70 that works great too... but the minute i laid my hands on the rose... well... you know and besides... two head knives are better than one right? actually the rose's blade is smaller than the osborne's and is a better fit for the type of work that i'm doing for the moment... anyway, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! and if anyone has any pointers as to where i can either buy a replacement handle (rose wood), or make one (tutorial?) that would be greatly appreciated! thanks for your assistance! I would repair the handle and keep the knife intact.........I M H O....... Edited October 3, 2011 by Luke Hatley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TwinOaks Report post Posted October 3, 2011 Slather a bit of epoxy in the tang, reinsert, and let cure. If it has a pinned handle, you can use an appropriate sized piece of brazing rod to re-pin it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtclod Report post Posted October 3, 2011 I have used JB Weld to do the same thing your asking about and it worked great. I have a edger that i'm going to use JB Weld on because the handle keeps coming off. I put the JB weld in the hadle and stick the blade back in and leave it alone for a little while and their good as new. I got mine at a auto parts store but most hardware stores should have it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Knipper Report post Posted October 8, 2011 Do you have the knife apart yet? It would help to see some photos of the parts (handle and blade) so I could see how it was put together. That would go a long way in determining the right course of action. Restoring vs replacing parts is a legitimate concern. But sometimes, if you truly want an item to perform well, old worn out parts need to be replaced to bring back the true function of the tool. If you want to resell it as an antique, then preserving the original with all its parts takes precedence. If the original can truly be restored with minimum alteration, then you can have it both ways. Knipper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Barbour Report post Posted October 8, 2011 If the cracks in the handle are not too wide, they can be filled and the repair will barely be noticeable. Get some 220 or 320 grit sandpaper and sand the handle and let the sanding dust fill in the cracks. Then get some thin super glue (zap is a good brand) and put some on the cracks and sand some more while the glue is wet. The glue and sanding dust will mix and fill in the cracks so well that they will be hard to see. I have used this method on rosewood and cocobolo game calls and it works very well. Just keep repeating the process until the cracks are completely filled. The glue will also keep the wood from re-cracking.You might want to finish sand using some 400 or 600 grit sandpaper depending on how smooth you want the finish. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tostrap Report post Posted October 9, 2011 Thanks to all for the suggestions! Much appreciated... I did have the knife apart, then just pushed all the pieces back together again. I have all the different types of adhesives mentioned in the replies, but before I proceed I'll try and post some pics of the knife for any further suggestions. Thanks again for the assistance...! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tostrap Report post Posted October 13, 2011 Here are a couple of pics of the damage.... Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! first pic - knife disassembled second pic - crack on top third pic - crack on bottom thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Knipper Report post Posted October 13, 2011 Well, any of the aforementioned techniques will work for you. Epoxy, super glue etc. I would suggest a few things however. First, get the rust off the tang of the blade before you reassemble it. Why put it back together only to have that small, narrow tang rust away and have the blade just fall out eventually. Use sandpaper or a scotch brite wheel to get back down to bare metal. Also, in addition to filling the cracks on the handle, make sure you ladle in plenty of epoxy (not super glue here...you need to fill big gaps) in the hole where the tang is. Then insert the blade. Make sure you put the retaining ring/bolster on before you snug things up. Make sure the blade is straight in the handle. Then fill in the cracks with epoxy. Since its cracked in several places, the blade will be loose unless you clamp it tight while the epoxy is setting up. I'd cut a few thin straps of leather to use as a "buffer" and then use one or more vise grips on the handle to really pull it tight against the tang. the leather will prevent vise grip marks on the wooden handle. When you get the cracks closed with the vise grips. don't touch it for a day or two...let the epoxy really set up. Then you can sand everything flush and add more epoxy to the deeper areas of the cracks later, and sand again. I don't see a retaining pin there or any holes in the tang, so this was just driven in when it was first made. Again, the manufacturers didn't foresee any one using this knife a hundred years after the fact! I hope the knife performs well for you after going to all this trouble! Knipper Here are a couple of pics of the damage.... Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! first pic - knife disassembled second pic - crack on top third pic - crack on bottom thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tostrap Report post Posted October 15, 2011 Hi Knipper Thanks for all the suggestions and advice... Another project to add to the bench! Much appreciated! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glockanator Report post Posted October 15, 2011 You could always add a leather disk knife handle to it like on the K Bar style knifes the USMC used back in the day. www.northcoastknives.com There is a tutirol on how to do it on here if your interested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tostrap Report post Posted October 16, 2011 very cool idea! thanks for the suggestion! not sure if it will work out for this one as the tang seems to be compression fit, but i'd love to try this out on something else... You could always add a leather disk knife handle to it like on the K Bar style knifes the USMC used back in the day. www.northcoastknives.com There is a tutirol on how to do it on here if your interested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldtimer Report post Posted October 16, 2011 I don´t think a leather disk handle is a bright idea, as the tang on your knife is too short for that,( or you´ll have to weld a longer tang to it ). mho / Knut Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TexasJack Report post Posted October 17, 2011 First, if you replace the handle, it's no longer an "antique". On the other hand, if you FIX the handle, it's still not an antique (or at least no longer has value). That handle is pretty badly messed up. Chances are it will not hold up. It especially won't hold up if you use the superglue or JB Weld that has been suggested. Only epoxy is any good for holding together a knife and JBWeld is about the worst epoxy there is. When wood cracks like that, it has been subject to dampness and the inside area will not be tight. The rust on the blade would indicate the same issue. The wood can be treated with acrylic resin to keep it from getting worse, but I wouldn't recommend it. At a minimum, the tang of the blade needs to be cleaned and then degreased. Adhesives (glues) are NOT designed to fill in space. For that you need to have material mixed with it. Fiberglass or even sawdust can be used. Gun shops or Brownells sell an epoxy kit for glass bedding rifles that will work. It's a gel epoxy with powdered fiberglass to add to the mix. Best would be a new wood handle, epoxy for the adhesive, and drill the whole thing through for a small pin to hold the tang tight in the handle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Knipper Report post Posted October 17, 2011 Excellent advice there, from TexasJack...to make this a "using" knife again, replace the handle. The products TexasJack mentioned are all good quality items. It sounded to me by your posts that you wanted to keep the original handle. But for better strength (and better looks) do as he suggests. Knipper quote name='TexasJack' timestamp='1318821313' post='217264'] First, if you replace the handle, it's no longer an "antique". On the other hand, if you FIX the handle, it's still not an antique (or at least no longer has value). That handle is pretty badly messed up. Chances are it will not hold up. It especially won't hold up if you use the superglue or JB Weld that has been suggested. Only epoxy is any good for holding together a knife and JBWeld is about the worst epoxy there is. When wood cracks like that, it has been subject to dampness and the inside area will not be tight. The rust on the blade would indicate the same issue. The wood can be treated with acrylic resin to keep it from getting worse, but I wouldn't recommend it. At a minimum, the tang of the blade needs to be cleaned and then degreased. Adhesives (glues) are NOT designed to fill in space. For that you need to have material mixed with it. Fiberglass or even sawdust can be used. Gun shops or Brownells sell an epoxy kit for glass bedding rifles that will work. It's a gel epoxy with powdered fiberglass to add to the mix. Best would be a new wood handle, epoxy for the adhesive, and drill the whole thing through for a small pin to hold the tang tight in the handle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tostrap Report post Posted October 27, 2011 Thanks TJ and Knipper! I don't know a whole lot about antiques... does this mean that the knife is worth more 'damaged' than fixed? To be honest I bought it more to use it than not so I guess thats a moot point. I just don't like the thought of possibly 'destroying' something that has 'historical significance'? That said I did narrow down my choice of handle wood and am trying to make sure I have all the parts and tools to do this... any suggestions/hints regarding fitting the blade into the handle would be greatly appreciated! Thanks again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bruce johnson Report post Posted October 27, 2011 My thoughts on it - fix it up to be safe to use. If that means a new handle - enjoy the time spent making it and then use it the rest of your life. There are other makers who are probably more historical than Rose. Rose knives are not particularly rare. They were a production company and as far as I know the only leather tools they made were round knives. Their big deal was masonary tools. I am sure they probably sold some directly, but CS Osborne had Rose knives as a listed item in his catalog. Rose knives are really good. I like them a bunch. Make a handle that is commensurate and somebody's grandkid will be cutting with that knife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tostrap Report post Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) ***edit*** - i just found more info on 'scandanavian' or hidden tang handles... and drilling/rasping methods... this looks like the construction that was originally used on this blade... maybe i'll stick to this method. Thanks for the clarification Bruce.... much appreciated! On a side/related note... from the tutorials i've found on hidden tang knives it seems that the handle must be split and hollowed out for the tang of the knife to fit in to... on the original handle it seems that the handle is drilled out and the tang inserted in. Can anyone confirm that the handle can be made this way (drilled from the top as opposed to split and glued back together)? i don't have a ban saw... i do have a mitre saw, which could be an option, but the blade is quite thick... thanks! Edited October 28, 2011 by tostrap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gtwister09 Report post Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) Would certainly agree with Bruce's assessment of Rose. I have purchased a couple of them with messed up handles and another without a handle. Others have given you good advice on cleaning and use of proper adhesives. "(drilled from the top as opposed to split and glued back together) " . Drilling from the top of the handle is not done. Originally these were only drilled out and things like epoxy weren't used. They were press fits so they were drilled out a little tight and it was also the reason for these ferrules. A fit that is too tight will crack a wooden handle. However it will be advantageous to utilize new techniques like epoxy, pins, bolsters, etc... In order to have a hidden tang on these knives like what they originally started out with, they are drilled from the bottom (where tang enters handle). Generally the center is drilled out a little shy of the depth of the tang. Then the handle is set at an angle equal to the angle on the tang and that is drilled to a depth that is again shy of the original depth. Some additional stepped holes are drilled out back towards the center hole. Need to make sure that the drilled holes that you make as you approach the hole DO NOT exceed or encroach into the wall of the first drilled angled hole. Next the angle is flipped to the other side and the process is repeated. In order to remove the places where the drill bit left some material between holes, you will have to clean the edges with a knife or other sharp item. If you have some round files/riflers that will not exceed the diameter of the bit you use then you may use them as well . A Dremel or other type rotary tool could also be used for the cleanup with the caveat of making sure that the tool used is smaller than the diameter of the drill bit. This will give you an angled hidden tanged hole. A couple of things to consider is that if you are using a press fit then choose a drill bit slightly smaller than the thickness of the tang material. Likewise you would make the holes slightly undersized as well to accommodate a pressed fit. On the other side if you are using an epoxy (not JB-Weld) then you will need to use a larger drill bit to accommodate the epoxy. Likewise the depth will be slightly oversized. Hope that helps. You can pin it as well. Regards, Ben Edited October 28, 2011 by gtwister09 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
