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[RidersChoiceSaddleCo]

Hello! My name is Jerry and I married into the saddle business 25 years ago. My wife's family had made saddles for 40 years for stores and large distributors. In the "good ole' days" they were making 2000+ every 6 weeks at times. As you know the world economy and imported items really put a dent in the mass production end of saddle making and about 12 years ago we started selling saddles directly to the end users instead of wholesalers. It was an eye opening experience and I noticed that many customers liked to add details or needed more hand-work or custom sizing than a cookie-cutter saddle would provide. So I ventured off on my own and started a smaller shop where we cater to customers who need specialized sizing and decoration. We build a lot of one of a kind saddle due to customers needs. I noticed in one forum where saddle price versus quality was bantered about and this is something I struggle with, especially coming from a background where $1.00 price difference could mean hundreds of sales. I am hoping to get your thoughts about this matter so I can better my business for customers. We normally build on Steele Trees, Evo, Equi, and Rawhide covered. We use Herman Oak leather, good quality stainless hardware, Blevins buckles, and wool fleece. We hand cut our saddles (25% of the time it will be a tree we have to template), all skiving is hand done, all decoration is hand tooled, and hand sewn the bindings and horns. Most of the saddles that we sell are saddles that are minimal tooled saddles because customers want a great saddle at a lower price, but we do carving as well. Sometimes we will have calls or emails from folks looking to buy but they seem leary because of the price of our saddles, and I have also had one contemporary tell me I need to charge more. I am just afraid with the economy that we will alienate customers if we jump the price. I don't have any qualms about buying better trees, it is just easy to work with Steele. Other than the cost of a custom tree I just don't see (other than the labor in decoration) how our cost in materials could be much higher. I guess one thing I am asking is how do you justify pricing on saddles? Do you find that customers are happier if you charge them more? I know this sounds stupid but there seems to be a "you get what you pay for" mentality, and I know that it is true 90% of the time. However over-paying for what you get can be as bad as not paying enough. I guess in the end we each have to decide what our time is worth, huh? Just looking for your thoughts about the matter.....and really enjoying the other posts on the forums.

[AdamTill]

Hey Jerry!

I'm speaking here as a customer rather then a saddlemaker, since I wouldn't be qualified to do otherwise.

I will say that while I think it's ridiculous to choose a saddle based solely on price, I do let price be somewhat of a guide in narrowing ranges down for quality purposes. I'll be perfectly honest, I just had a conversation with a friend a couple of days ago where she sent me a link to a saddlery website, and my recommendation was to avoid it specifically due to their use of inexpensive trees and the sub-$1k price of their new saddles.

I've done enough leatherwork to have an appreciation for the sunk cost of tooling and shop space, and when added to the cost of good leather sides and hardware, I don't see how you can feed your family on a $750 saddle?

Likewise, I don't know that I feel I could trust my neck to a saddle built to a price. Having recently found a wonderful lady who's made my life a whole bunch better then it already was, I'd hate to lose the chance to spend more time with her after a saddle contributed to a preventable wreck for either of us. Not meaning to denegrate your product at ALL, let me emphasize, but that's just what I feel when I know folks are trying to make profit out of a low-margin item.

I've also been a big believer in charging what you think your time is worth, so do be aware that people will judge your opinion of yourself accordingly.

I guess it largely depends on what segment of the market you're looking to trap. Nothing wrong with a production environment, but don't try to do custom work at production rates.

As a customer I'm coming from the perspective of wanting a saddle that will hold up to a full day's work and outlive a few horses, mind you. The saddle I've ridden most often was $1500 new, but has a good rawhide tree in it and strong rigging which I went in and modified a bit. The cost savings come in that it's not a roping saddle, the covering is about 50% cordura, and made production-style.

I recently got a $5k ranch saddle from one of the members here, and I can see where the added value comes from pretty easily. Likewise, when I look at my lady's dressage saddle (which is worth about the same), it's pretty obvious why it cost what it did.

The other thing I considered was, like the Nissan pickup I drive, I wanted to be able to have some safety in my investment financially in case it didn't work out. Every time I've had to trade in a domestically branded vehicle, I've lost my shirt. Likewise, while I fully expect I could resell my $5k saddle for the same price I bought it for, I doubt I'd get much more then 50-75% of the price of the less expensive saddle.

Food for thought, anyway, hope it helps.

Cheers,

Adam

[RidersChoiceSaddleCo]

Thanks Adam, That is just the type of info I was looking for. I suppose that is the way I am leaning, in possibly getting completely away from the production mentality. Not to say that our saddles are all built that way but I have done it for so long there is this feeling that if I charge to much it won't sell. So this is where what you said rings true about your opinion of yourself. I do think highly of our saddles and our build practices. Our master saddler has 44 years of experience and is a pleasure to work with. Maybe it is time to target a new customer base. Super input. I could use more if anyone cares to share.

[kseidel]

Jerry,

In 34 years in the saddle business, I have never heard anyone from your side of the industry talk like you! How refreshing! Adams reply was quite frank and your response was very gracious and unexpected. I greatly respect you for reaching out in this manner. You made mention of "over-paying for what you get can be as bad as not paying enough." That is so true. It is one thing to say "you get what you pay for", but it is important to "get what you are paying for." Sometimes a commercially made saddle is better than a handbuilt one because the knowledge and designing put into the factory saddle is superior to an inexperienced custom maker even though the custom saddle may cost much more.As you know the entry level market is saturated in the US. There is room in the market for a much more expensive saddle, however, it must be equally superior in quality of construction and aesthetics. There are some pretty talented and experienced saddlemakers in your area. Most of them are never given the opportunity to excel due to time and cost restrictions. It is impossible to do truly superior work without extra time. additional time translates to higher expenses, and thus to higher retail prices. Cost of living and quality of lifestyle also dictates how much one may charge for their time. Then there is the experience level and training of the craftsman. A higher skilled craftsman is worth more than an entry level. In a commercial situation, more experience and higher skill level does not always translate into more volume or faster production, and therefore is not necessarily rewarded with higher wages. In the custom world, higher skill levels and more experience produces a higher quality of saddle and therefore can command a higher retail price and rewards the maker with higher wages. Even a factory made saddle can fetch a higher retail price if it is better made and better designed so that it is more desirable. In the end, it is all about what the consumer is willing to pay for what is important to him. Similar to the art world, where notoriety of the artist and desirability of the product dictates the saleability at the asking price.

It is hard to keep prices in perspective. Saddles are basically a luxury item and each consumer has a value they establish their luxury is worth to them. The market that you are currently selling to places a lower value on their luxury than other consumers who are willing (and able) to spend a great deal more to get what they want. If you want to expand your product line and offer higher priced items, you will find that there is a completely different market of consumers to buy your goods. I have been preaching higher prices for years. If your saddles are higher quality then they should command a higher price. You may be leaving money on the table. In a time when inflation is rampant, you will need to keep up with rising costs, or you will not survive, and it is imperative that you stay ahead of the game.

Sorry for the length of this post. Thanks for your input into this forum.

Respectfully,

Keith Seidel

[RidersChoiceSaddleCo]

Thank you Keith, The input is greatly appreciated. Your comment about me not sounding like the "normal" guy from this end of the market made me laugh. I have never been called normal. That is one reason I chose to veer my business away from the plan of the middleman making the profit and go straight to the end user. I suppose I see the need at all ends. I love selling a person a saddle that can only afford a 500.00 roper that we can build here in the United States and the thought of taking our custom line to new heights. And yes I have seen way too many large companies in my area go under because they just weren't able to compete and had way too much overhead. I understand exactly what Adam was saying because I speak with potential customers everyday who have those same concerns. I also speak with customers who have paid to have saddles made for thousands and they didn't fit the horse or the rider properly. With your words I feel better that I am choosing the correct path. I look forward to sharing in the posts and learning as much as I can.

[AdamTill]

Hi gents,

I apologize if my comments came across a little harsh, but I wanted to give the unvarnished truth because I believed that's what was being asked for. I know I always appreciate getting it from others. Unfortunately the horse world seems to be more full of nonsense and pointless tradition then anything else I've ever been involved with and it colors how people think, so I thought I could help with the owner's side of things a little.

As an example, back a bunch of years ago I was selling a 17hh warmblood horse for about $3500. I'd bought him lame for that price, rehabbed him, and was going to sell him. I figured he was sound and well trained now, but since he was a few years older, I offered him for sale at the same price that I'd paid. A friend strongly encouraged me to price him at $10k instead, saying that people from the jumper world generally assume that there's something very wrong with a horse that's less then $10k and wouldn't come out to see him. Boggles the mind.

I did want to commend Jerry for being this concerned about doing things right, since it's nice to see! It must especially be very satisfying to be able to help people who can't afford the really expensive gear, but please don't shortchange yourself. If the market can bear it, be proud of the quality you bring to the table, and charge accordingly.

Best of luck!

Adam

[Aurelie]

Hi Jerry! and welcome in there!

I am quite "happy" to see that i am not alone in that world with the same questions.....

across the Atlantic, i ve got something like the same troubles

i am working with only the best products

i ve been taught to build "sturdy" saddles , ready to cross many years without batting an eyelash

(i am a rookie in the buisness since i ve been working for 1 year )

My experience is growing up each saddle i build

(i ve built 3 saddles so far on my own)

I am importing most of the products from the USA (trees, leathers and hardware) just because i have no other choice.

It has a cost (products, shipment, customs)

I build the saddle...

so at least i have to charge the price it costs me to get the products (and it costs me more than a cheap western saddle built in mexico or china)

As i am rookie, i found it "logical" not to charge my "handjob" (meaning my leather working! as much as a 30 years experience saddle maker because i do think that experience makes the difference (it s a job where you learn sthg everyday)

Upon this you can add : the horse morphology here in France

Most are not QH

Most are half breed between a lot of different kind of horses and people get a hellish time to find a saddle that fits their horse

and they are just starting to be "aware" of saddle fitting problems

Trouble is : they want a custom saddle as cheap as a china one......

Go figure??? Totally impossible to me ......

I won't work out a dinasty here

anyway i ve got only 1 set of hands and a baby to take care....so, if i can build and sell 3 saddles per year...i would be happy

but i prefer to build less saddles but good ones and to "intelligent people" that understand why they want a custom saddle and why they pay more than a cardboard saddle....

I do like my job and i am not ready to "whore" it

By the way = nice saddle on your picture!

And to get back to what Adam said about "the right price" :

yes here too, people are that way....

they can't understand that you can find "brandless" saddles that are way better than some "well known brands"......

As i use to say :

if you do not put a certain amount of money = you 're sure to get S**T

BUT

if you "strip" your wallet and pay a big amount of money = you're not even sure to get THE QUALITY (Good one)....

:D

Edited October 27, 2011 by Aurelie

[Chris A]

As a person who has bought 2 saddles from Riders Choice and considering another (as soon as I recover from my new car transmission), I want to say a couple of things...

1. I love the quality of saddle I got from them, but it was the combination of quality and excellent price that results in my kudos to them and will most likely make me a return customer.

2. Please don't recommend he raise the prices until I can see my way clear to get the lightweight wade I'm dreaming of! LOL

While I can certainly appreciate the time that goes into the exquisite detailed carving, there is most definitely a market for someone looking for a well made saddle at a price the average person can afford. Keep up the good work, Jerry.

Chris