Barrel Saddle Structure

[Aurelie]

Hello guys!

Yup, i know.....i have too many questions and i am too curious for my own good.....but i can't help it

Maybe someone can give me some explanations about the structure of a Barrel saddle versus a ranch one (for example)

Specifically about the skirts , mounting the skirts and the fact there is no back Jockeys (i guess it's all about gainning weight for the speed)

but i was wondering :

how can you mount the skirts on a barrel saddle tree and NOT HAVE a bulk on the bars at the back?

and last question :

where can i find pointers about "how to build a barrel saddle" and find all the technical differences?

Any book existing?

thanks a lot

[Aurelie]

Any ideas? any suggestions?

no??

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

OK Auriele, I can only tell you what I do, and that may not be the same as you were taught, but; then there is always more than one way to skin a cat. When I fit the skirts to the tree, I really "block" the skirt leather deep around the edges of the tree, and then plug the underside to bring the bottom flush with the rest of the skirt. That way, there is a deep pocket for the tree to set in and the top leather or Jockey is flush at the top and there is not a big "lump" where the tree is. Here is a pic of a saddle that is not a barrel racing saddle, however: at the owner's request it was made similar to one and shows how it looks when completed. Hope that helps.

Bob

Edited November 22, 2011 by BondoBobCustomSaddles

[Aurelie]

Thx Bob for the reply

so if i get it "straight", the fact that there is no bump on the top skirt (where the bars sit) is all about the way you "mold" the skirt to the tree

good to know!

i thought there were a "special " way to make thoses skirts looking flat where the bars sit

i think i get it!

here is a new scientific test for me!

geez......got a loong list of scientific tests up my sleeve it seems!

Edited November 22, 2011 by Aurelie

[BOB BRENNER]

Aurelie,

Have build a few barrel saddles, so here is a very short course.

Currently the most popular style of a barrel saddle is one with round Mother Hubbard style skirts with in-skirt rigging. Typically, the horn will be thin and around 3" to 3 ½ " high with a cap less than 1 ½". The swell will have little froward tilt, about 3" thick and 12 to13 inches wide. The cantle will be 4 plus inches high. To reduce bulk the fenders will be down sized and 2 ½" half stirrup leathers are used. Weight is a consideration so lighter weight skirting leather is used. The treeless saddle has become popular of late along with smaller skirts on regular saddles.

You had a question as to fitting the Mother Hubbard style skirts. Mother Hubbard skirts have a bottom skirt and a top skirt. See the example of the skirt pattern I have used for several years.

　

All skirts need to be blocked no matter what type of saddle being built. One can get a bump or ridge plus some other problems when a rear jockey is used and the skirts are not blocked properly. A tree with thick or beefy bars will make the blocking process harder. A saddle with a rear jockey is a little forgiving because the flow line is broken up by the edge of the rear jockey.

　

The bottom skirt must be blocked or molded to the point where the skirt is on the same plain as the top of the bar. Any unevenness will be transmitted to the top skirt as a bump or ridge. Once the bottom skirts are blocked or molded to the point where the bottom skirt is on the same plane as the top of the bar, the top skirt will flow onto the bottom skirt with not bump or ridge other than the curve of the bar.

　

As far as I know there are no books or videos on barrel saddles. The construction techniques for a barrel saddle are the same as any other saddle just a different style as stated before. Study the internet for examples.

Hope this helps you,

Bob

Edited November 28, 2011 by BOB BRENNER

[Aurelie]

Aurelie,

Have build a few barrel saddles, so here is a very short course.

Terrific Bob

exactly what i needed!

1 more question (so that i am sure that i put the same meaning as you behind the word "to block" the leather

> for me it's to rub hard the leather (where the bars are going to sit) so that when you mold the leather to the bar it goes right?

is it the right meaning?

Again thx a lot!

i can work with that!

good point i guess => i build my skirts that way but had the "problem" you mention about the bulk + i did not know it was called that way (i love that forum! ...learning a ton of things!)

NOW, you lead me to ANOTHER QUESTION

You say : we do not want the bulk on the top skirt (not much a trouble with back jockeys since they "hide" it)

but if i look at your pictures ( + that 's what i had in mind from the start) => you will have a lump underside the skirt (instead of on top) SO how do you make it "flat" for the linning with sheep skin???

I thought that in a western saddle you wanted the underside of the skirts "flat" with no "lump" of the bars as on english saddles (not sure that you see what i mean..)

or do the thickness of the sheepskin is enough to "get rid" of that aspect? (or maybe the fact that the bars of a barrel saddle tree are smaller and flatter than regular saddle tree - but in that case => i will still have the problem with a NON Barrel saddle tree)

:D ...and here, i guess , you will regret to have answered my question in the 1 st place.....because it leads to another ones!

Anyway, i really appreciate the tips and explanations!

SHORT AND EFFICIENT, the way i like it!

Edited November 28, 2011 by Aurelie

[Mike Craw]

Hey Aurelie!

Since someone else posted a different topic and your topic went away, I thought you might not get an answer to one of your questions. It took a while to find the attached photo of the bottom of a pair of skirts on a saddle I made for a lady that shows the blocking and filling to deal with the "bump" on the bottom of blocked skirts.

The skirt at the top of the photo shows the bottom of the skirt with two pieces of leather that have been cut to the shape of the pocket formed by the bars. The edges of the cut-outs have been skived to flow smoothly onto the raise portion of the bar pocket to minimize the bump as it sits on the horse's back.

I hope this helps explain smoothing out the bottom of blocked skirts by filling with other leather.

Mike

[Aurelie]

Hey Aurelie!

Since someone else posted a different topic and your topic went away, I thought you might not get an answer to one of your questions. It took a while to find the attached photo of the bottom of a pair of skirts on a saddle I made for a lady that shows the blocking and filling to deal with the "bump" on the bottom of blocked skirts.

The skirt at the top of the photo shows the bottom of the skirt with two pieces of leather that have been cut to the shape of the pocket formed by the bars. The edges of the cut-outs have been skived to flow smoothly onto the raise portion of the bar pocket to minimize the bump as it sits on the horse's back.

I hope this helps explain smoothing out the bottom of blocked skirts by filling with other leather.

Mike

Thanks a lot Mike!

Ok that's was something like that i had in mind to "fix" the bump trouble.

I just was not sure if it was a "clean" and acceptable job to do

reminds me of 1 solution to fix a poor saddle tree fit (some leather plugs glued and skived to the bottom bars => so i guess it's a common solution

Anyway guys, i really appreciate all your help and tips

It helps me to see if i choose the right options and from what i see, i am not totally dumb

[Denise]

I thought that in a western saddle you wanted the underside of the skirts "flat" with no "lump" of the bars as on english saddles

If the skirts are flat on the bottom, then the shaping the tree maker does to fit the shape of the horse is negated until the leather softens up enough from use to "block" itself, at least partially. From the tree maker's side of things, we put a lot of effort into rounding the edges of the bars and putting relief on the bar tips so that the pressure from the saddle to the horse is relieved gradually from full contact to no pressure. (Sharp edges are a bad thing!) Properly blocked skirts will make that transition of pressure even more gradual, which is a good thing. But a totally flat surface will mean the skirts will put pressure past where the tree was meant to and lift the tree off the horse in places, decreasing surface area on the horse. There are other ways that can cause problems. Especially at the front bar tip, you want your skirts to follow the curve of the bars so there are no "walls" of leather for the shoulder blade to run into. Instead you have a rounded surface for the shoulder blade to slip under. You will see some good makers even rounding the sheepskin enough that it faces forward and tacking it on to the front of the gullet to keep that round shape. And by blocking at the back of the bars, the skirts will come off the horse rather than possibly rubbing the loin area. The padded English panel system works very differently than a Western saddle with a tree that distributes the weight and not enough people recognize the functional difference between how the two styles of saddles work on a horse. At least, these are my thoughts... worth what you paid for them.

[Aurelie]

If the skirts are flat on the bottom, then the shaping the tree maker does to fit the shape of the horse is negated until the leather softens up enough from use to "block" itself, at least partially. From the tree maker's side of things, we put a lot of effort into rounding the edges of the bars and putting relief on the bar tips so that the pressure from the saddle to the horse is relieved gradually from full contact to no pressure. (Sharp edges are a bad thing!) Properly blocked skirts will make that transition of pressure even more gradual, which is a good thing. But a totally flat surface will mean the skirts will put pressure past where the tree was meant to and lift the tree off the horse in places, decreasing surface area on the horse. There are other ways that can cause problems. Especially at the front bar tip, you want your skirts to follow the curve of the bars so there are no "walls" of leather for the shoulder blade to run into. Instead you have a rounded surface for the shoulder blade to slip under. You will see some good makers even rounding the sheepskin enough that it faces forward and tacking it on to the front of the gullet to keep that round shape. And by blocking at the back of the bars, the skirts will come off the horse rather than possibly rubbing the loin area. The padded English panel system works very differently than a Western saddle with a tree that distributes the weight and not enough people recognize the functional difference between how the two styles of saddles work on a horse. At least, these are my thoughts... worth what you paid for them.

thanks a lot for this additionnal information Denise!

i will take eveything everybody throw at me regarding saddle structures

always a lot of tibits that help drawing the whole picture