Leather Lifts Up With Needle - Need Help - At Wits End!

[RawhideLeather]

Howdy all, this post relates to the other post I just made to this forum concerning timing my machine. I have been doing things pretty much the same way for years but now I'm having constant trouble with the leather I'm sewing rising up with the needle and causing skipped stitches and other problems. The fact that the needles have been getting dried glue on them would indicate that the glue hasn't completely dried yet so I'm guessing that maybe my shop is too cold and that I need to give the glue longer drying time (I have been waiting a couple of days before stitching after gluing which would seem long enough to me even in cold weather). I didn't have that problem last winter and it was colder if anything. I have increased the foot pressure to the maximum to no avail. Tried new needles. I also tried lubing the thread which is getting kind of old now with liquid glycerine leather soap but it didn't help much. Tried resetting the timing even but I'm not certain that it is correct because the instructions in the manual they sent with the machine doesn't make any sense to me.

Here is some more info:

Machine - Artisan Toro 3000

Leather being stitched - 3 glued layers of W&C 12 oz. skirting that has been holstered (factory compressed) and is about 9/16" thickness

Thread - Linhanyll nylon 346/277

Glue - Duall #88 all purpose cement

Needle system - Schmetz 794D NM:200 Size: 25

I have been using all of the above successfully for some time except for the holstered leather part which is more recent. I tried stitching with no thread and it does the same thing. I tried stitching on a piece of same leather and thickness with no glue and it did the same thing! Just not as often which makes me wonder about the problem being the glue. Thinner 3/8" unglued pieces stitch with no problems except the stitching gets slightly smaller the longer the stitch line is. Not much of this makes any logical sense to me. Any ideas anyone?

Edited December 7, 2011 by RawhideLeather

[dirtclod]

When i get a piece of sticky leather like your talking about. I sew with no thread and go back and sew with thread. It's not something i like to do but it's better than having to pick stitches out or messing something up. When i glue in the winter espically i use a hair dryer to dry the glue. Because sometimes when the glue hasn't dried all the way it will mess things up as far as sewing. If you get a wax pot and put your lube in it that will help to.

[RawhideLeather]

Thanks for the reply dirtclod. Workable idea but the leather sticks to the needle even without thread. I use the hair dryer trick myself to speed up drying before assembly. I need to figure this out because this is my living and the only type of stitching that I do so I can't be stitching first without thread all the time. It used to work for me, it should now if I can figure out the problem. I do use thread lube but haven't tried the silicone yet. Any other ideas?

When i get a piece of sticky leather like your talking about. I sew with no thread and go back and sew with thread. It's not something i like to do but it's better than having to pick stitches out or messing something up. When i glue in the winter espically i use a hair dryer to dry the glue. Because sometimes when the glue hasn't dried all the way it will mess things up as far as sewing. If you get a wax pot and put your lube in it that will help to.

[Wizcrafts]

Try using a #26 leather point needle. #25 is minimal for 346 thread and this leather requires a bigger hole.

Crank the top pressure spring all the way down.

If you have a wide presser foot set, change to it. The wider the feet, the more pressure they exert per square inch.

Until you get a lube pot and liquid silicon, buy a can of silicon spray and spray it on the needle as you sew.

Some leather is so dry and dense that you have to sew it while it is wet. Try moistening the flesh sides and bottom before gluing them together.

Stainless steel feet and throat plates are made for wet sewing. Call Bob Kovar (866-362-7397) about getting a set of his stainless feet and a throat plate.

[RawhideLeather]

Hi Wizcrafts,

Like I mentioned, the leather goes up without any thread in the needle so needle size shouldn't be the main issue I wouldn't think but I will give that a try if I still have problems later on.

Pressure is cranked down to the limit and I even added a thick washer under the spring to gain more pressure.

I'm using a wide foot.

Good idea about using the spray temporarily.

Don't think I want to try and sew damp leather as it would leave to many unwanted marks that I couldn't get rid of.

I was thinking that maybe the thread is old enough to have lost some of it's bonding and maybe that could also be one of the problems. The spool is probably several years old by now even though I tried to keep it sprayed down with liquid glycerin leather soap. Think I'll buy some new thread which leads me to another question. Where can I find Schmetz needles and nylon thread from the same place (besides Artisan - they don't seem to have my size)?

Thanks for your help. If anyone has any other insights please let me know.

Try using a #26 leather point needle. #25 is minimal for 346 thread and this leather requires a bigger hole.

Crank the top pressure spring all the way down.

If you have a wide presser foot set, change to it. The wider the feet, the more pressure they exert per square inch.

Until you get a lube pot and liquid silicon, buy a can of silicon spray and spray it on the needle as you sew.

Some leather is so dry and dense that you have to sew it while it is wet. Try moistening the flesh sides and bottom before gluing them together.

Stainless steel feet and throat plates are made for wet sewing. Call Bob Kovar (866-362-7397) about getting a set of his stainless feet and a throat plate.

[Wizcrafts]

Hi Wizcrafts,

Like I mentioned, the leather goes up without any thread in the needle so needle size shouldn't be the main issue I wouldn't think but I will give that a try if I still have problems later on.

Pressure is cranked down to the limit and I even added a thick washer under the spring to gain more pressure.

I'm using a wide foot.

Good idea about using the spray temporarily.

Don't think I want to try and sew damp leather as it would leave to many unwanted marks that I couldn't get rid of.

I was thinking that maybe the thread is old enough to have lost some of it's bonding and maybe that could also be one of the problems. The spool is probably several years old by now even though I tried to keep it sprayed down with liquid glycerin leather soap. Think I'll buy some new thread which leads me to another question. Where can I find Schmetz needles and nylon thread from the same place (besides Artisan - they don't seem to have my size)?

Thanks for your help. If anyone has any other insights please let me know.

Here's a thought about the old thread. Get a large enough container to hold the spool of thread. Get some clear sewing machine oil, or a couple quarts of liquid silicon and immerse the thread in the lubricant until it has thoroughly absorbed it into the windings. Remove the lube from the container and let the spool drip dry. When the dripping stops, wipe it down with a few paper towels, thread it into the machine, and see if this helps alleviate the sticking needle problem. The thread will carry the oil or silicon to the needle, which delivers it to the dry leather.

Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines has Schmetz needles and nylon thread. They now carry their own brand of pre-lubricated Cowboy thread.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Wizcrafts

[Kevin]

If there is glue on your needle, I don't think your glue is dry and the leather is comeing apart just enough to grab the needle. I have this problem when I have three layers of leather that I've dampened and tacked together (no glue). I think the layers kind of go their separate ways and the dampness for some reason makes the leather grippy and it will pull the needle right out of the needle bar.

If I don't get to sew 'til the next day, no problem, well, that's one of my experiences.

Good luck,

Kevin

[defenestrator]

Here's my two cents. I was having the same problem sewing saddle skirts. I went down to Ralph's industrial sewing machines and talked to a service tech and to Jack a salesman. They told me to increase foot pressure, let glue dry all the way, lubricate the needle with liquid silicon, which they sell there and to sew slowly. There thinking was that when the needle heats up it grabs more at the glue. I have also noticed that I had more trouble with Barge. After trying all these I quit having problems. Hope that helps.

[RawhideLeather]

Thanks Wiz, I would have never thought to do that with the thread, just might work till I can get some more in. I also appreciate the link for the thread and needles. I hate having to order one thing here and another there if I can avoid it. I hope their thread is good quality, I do like the straw color. Will order some tomorrow along with the larger needles, this leather is fairly dense. Thanks again.

Kevin, I agree, when working with leather this thick and dense things can happen that don't normally happen. I appreciate your input.

Defenestrator, thanks for the suggestions. All sound advice. Heat isn't a factor in my case though as it even happens with a cold needle ran through slowly by the handwheel on the first or second stitch. Question, how do you manage to lube the needle? Do you just spray some on by hand as it is stitching?

I also think I will fabricate a box with a small light bulb to put my work in after gluing so that the glue will dry faster in my cold shop. Should help some I would think.

Richard

Edited December 8, 2011 by RawhideLeather

[dirtclod]

I never have tried this but it might work. Fix a piece of sponge next to the needle or fix it where the thread will run through the sponge ( cut a slit in the sponge ) and put the lube on the sponge and see what happens. I sew 4 pieces of 12/14 oz regular. Like the other person said it's no problem to get smoke coming off of a needle and that may very well melt the glue.

Edited December 8, 2011 by dirtclod