phil54601 Report post Posted March 6, 2012 Hello All. I have been reading this forum for almost a year now, and have learned a great deal. I was able to find answers to most of my questions by searching. I'm finally getting close to buying a stitcher. I'm retired and leather work is a hobby so a new Juki441 clone is way too expensive for me. I started looking for a machine about 6 mo. ago. I finally realized about one month ago, that I will have to settle for a needle & awl machine and hope for the best. I hope to not to have to fabricate parts. I have not been trained as a machinist, but I do have a 6"x19" metal lathe, and mig welder that I'm able to use. I have found a few stitchers on the Internet, but don't know which one would be best for me. I plan to sew holsters with 207/277 or 277 top & bottom. I read the excellent pdf file on the Campbell-Bosworth site: (http://www.campbell-...Point-Part2.pdf). That file helped me to narrow my inquiry to a Champion wide(deep) throat or a Landis #3, with the Landis #3 being my 1st choice. I read some where that the Champion wide throat stitchers have a heater for warming up the internal steel parts. I've also heard that the heater is just for the wax pot. SO, which is correct, or is it both? Does that also apply to a Landis #3? The wax pot heater would be optional, but to heat metal it would be a necessity. I haven't been able to find out the difference between a Champion wide throat & a Champion 52". They look the same in pictures, to me, but they have different manuals available on the Internet. I also read somewhere that awl-feed machines are better than needle-feed, briefly why? Is any one of these machines easier to work on, easier to get parts for, or less expensive to rebuild? What are a few tell-tale signs that a machine has been abused, is worn out or in need of rebuilding? Everyone should be able to see from all my questions that I'm an information-junkie and I just don't want to buy a boat anchor, that I'll never get working! Thank You in advance for any and all help phil54601 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Report post Posted March 7, 2012 I can't answer all your questions, but I'll take a stab at a couple. Back when wax was solid, it had to be heated to melt and flow. The machine had to be heated to keep the wax from solidifying while you were sewing. Now there are liquid waxes, so there is no need for heat at all. As for the choice between a Champion and a Landis 3, I would get the Landis because there are parts out there or they can be made. Campbell- Bosworth has some or will make what they don't have. Hope that helps a little, Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) I have a Union Lockstitch needle and awl machine and it happens to be for sale. Needs no further modification to sew over 3/4 inch, with a throat depth of 12 inches. Handles most bonded thread sizes 138 through 554, or 3 to 10 cord linen (run through Lax Wax). Parts are readily available for it, as are needles, awls and bobbins. I used it to sew double leather belts, weight belts, holsters, cases, tool pouches, etc. Edited March 7, 2012 by Wizcrafts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phil54601 Report post Posted March 7, 2012 Thank You Kevin & Wiz for your comments. I have a local auction coming up that has both machines available. That is why I'm researching now. I hope to get the Landis 3. Like I mentioned in my original post, the Landis 3 is my 1st choice. Thanks! phil54601 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phil54601 Report post Posted March 15, 2012 Hello everyone; The auction in Greenwood, WI was Tuesday. Generally machines went fairly cheap. A Singer 29-4 for $100.00, and a 45K69 for $225.00, both working on stands. I don't remember what the Champion went for, but it didn't look as good as the Landis 3. I don't think that Champion was assembled correctly either, and there was no presser foot tension. The Landis 3 included: complete original manual 3 packs(10packs about 1/2 full) of needles: 1 for 138, 2 for 207/277 thread (size180, 210 & ? 1 not marked--about 200) 2 packs awls (size 200 & 210) hand marked "for 277/207 thread" one spare bobbin hand bobbin winder (Pearson) 1 wrench, too small for the needle collet 2 screw drivers for the awl set screw the threading wire has the tip broke off, I think. home-made edge guide on the left end 3 metal pads for under the base of the machine, so it doesn't mar a wood table top I got the Landis 3 for $400.00. There are a couple things wrong with it. The thread hook has been brazed and, the needle plate is beat-up a little. The thread tube is a bit cruddy inside. I don't know what old wax looks like. If it looks like black paint then it probably has some on top. I posted 5 photos in my 'Landis 3' gallery. The one photo #20 shows it threaded wrong. I need to build a table for it, and I'm thinking of putting my old singer clutch motor on it, possibly through a home made pulley speed reducer. I'm figuring that 4 legs from 2"x3/16" wall thickness angle iron should be heavy duty enough. Then put a solid laminated Oak table top about 1-1/2" thick on top. Thank You to all who replied with helpful info. phil54601 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DavidMillsSaddlery Report post Posted April 19, 2019 On 3/15/2012 at 8:18 AM, phil54601 said: Hello everyone; The auction in Greenwood, WI was Tuesday. Generally machines went fairly cheap. A Singer 29-4 for $100.00, and a 45K69 for $225.00, both working on stands. I don't remember what the Champion went for, but it didn't look as good as the Landis 3. I don't think that Champion was assembled correctly either, and there was no presser foot tension. The Landis 3 included: complete original manual 3 packs(10packs about 1/2 full) of needles: 1 for 138, 2 for 207/277 thread (size180, 210 & ? 1 not marked--about 200) 2 packs awls (size 200 & 210) hand marked "for 277/207 thread" one spare bobbin hand bobbin winder (Pearson) 1 wrench, too small for the needle collet 2 screw drivers for the awl set screw the threading wire has the tip broke off, I think. home-made edge guide on the left end 3 metal pads for under the base of the machine, so it doesn't mar a wood table top I got the Landis 3 for $400.00. There are a couple things wrong with it. The thread hook has been brazed and, the needle plate is beat-up a little. The thread tube is a bit cruddy inside. I don't know what old wax looks like. If it looks like black paint then it probably has some on top. I posted 5 photos in my 'Landis 3' gallery. The one photo #20 shows it threaded wrong. I need to build a table for it, and I'm thinking of putting my old singer clutch motor on it, possibly through a home made pulley speed reducer. I'm figuring that 4 legs from 2"x3/16" wall thickness angle iron should be heavy duty enough. Then put a solid laminated Oak table top about 1-1/2" thick on top. Thank You to all who replied with helpful info. phil54601 How’s that singer clutch motor work? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
