Sold This On Etsy

[Bob Blea]

So I have been watching this discussion for the past few days with a lot on interest. I've been looking at Etsy and pricing of my own work, and been thinking about pricing and marketing. There have been some similar discussions on other forums. I certainly see the logic for pricing $20 per hour (or more) for your shop rate, or maybe charging so much an inch for a tooled belt. However, as much as we feel we should charge a certain rate for out skills we still are constrained by the market we sell into. From what I have seen on Etsy, it just isn't the kind of marketplace that will have customers willing to pay $200 or more for a Bible cover. My most common product are fairly small notebooks that hold 5x8 notepads. I'm certainly no master, but I think my carving is pretty good and I believe I make a good quality product, but if I was to use the $20 labor rate the cost, just in labor, would be over $200.00. That doesn't include overhead or a 2x markup for retail that really should be in the price. From the research I have done, Etsy is NOT the marketplace that would support a hand carved leather item at these sorts of prices regardless of the quality. Now, I am not good at sales or marketing, so if I was maybe I could write an item description that would get a buyer to purchase a $200 notebook on Etsy, but from what I can tell, Etsy just doesn't attract many of that sort of customer.

I think it is certainly possible to get those sort of prices for a well made item, and it's clear that very talented and experienced artists like Bob Park do just that. The difference here is that they have developed a different market, one that appreciates fine handcrafted (and usually customer made) leather items. Also, I think at that level, there is a certain name recognition or word of mouth that exists in their market that allows them to charge what they do. They have marketed themselves to a completely different market segment than the folks on Etsy, and they have sold themselves in that market successfully. That is what allows them to sell at the prices they do. And I think Biggundoctor has a valid point that what happens in the Etsy market doesn't have much effect of the market for a Bob Park or a Jim Jackson. And I really believe that what those masters do in their market segment doesn't effect Etsy one bit. What really ends up determining what we can charge for our work is how we sell ourselves into our particular market. To move our prices up, we usually have to move up to a better market.

Just my two cents worth.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

No offense taken Mike, it's all friendly here. You mentioned that you agreed with JAllen's thoughts. Ok so how about coffe mugs, hand thrown vs Wal-Mart China import. I have seen the Wal-Mart affect at craft fairs. People comparing $20 handmade to $3 Chinse imports. Those people you will probably never reach, becasue their PERCEIVED value of a coffe mug is $3. Doesn't matter that there are other potters at the same show selling mugs for more, or less. That person's perception is $3. The people who do want a custom mug will pay the price, as long as your product suits their need. That is the point I was trying to make. A guy who can afford a Lamborghini (pretty much a handmade car) more than likely would never buy a Kia because his perceived value of the cars is very different. For him, big bucks = status, and quality you won't get with the Kia. I saw a new Rolls at a casino recently, and the leather interior was absoutely beautiful, not a stitch out of place. It reeked of quality. Holland and Holland shotguns last I read started at $77,000, and are custom fit to you, you can't buy one off a rack since each one is custom made. There are people out there who will, and do pay for what they perceive is the best. You need to market yourself as the maker of the best leather bookmarks anywhere. The people who buy the less expensive ones probably wouldn't pay more for yours in the first place.

Before I came on this site I never would have guessed that custom pool cue cases could sell for thousands of dollars, but they do. Does every custom case sell that high? No. Do the ones that are priced far lower drag their values down? Not likely, because the top makers have a quality reputation, and the players that buy their cases have the perception that they are worth the price.

DoubleC, you mentioned people don't know Jack about leather (many don't know Jack about cars either). Sounds like you may have a marketing problem. If they don't know Jack , you need to introduce them to Jack so they know everything about him. That is the whole premiss of marketing, informing your customer base about your product, and why they should buy it. Don't expect your guitar straps to sell themselves, you need to sell the customer on them. In all actuallity you need to sell DoubleC more than the product, you need to build your brand so that when someone at the local music store inquires about custom straps your name comes up first. Your brand will be based on quality, performance, customer service, price, and most importantly what the customer perceives your value to be. There are also sites like Kickstarter out there that can help you get your business off the ground. I have friends who have gone that route.

I have a friend who makes jewelery, and she is killing it in sales. She has cultivated a following, works the internet, hits craft fairs, and now her customers are waiting for her newest pieces to come out. Have you seen how many people make jewelery nowadays? She has tons of competition,but she kills them in sales at every show. How? She knows her market very well. This community is not that closeknit, there are tons of leatherworkers out ther that are not on this site. I know a woman in Las Vegas who has built up a product line called Leather Couture by Jessica Galindo. By most accounts her items would be considered lower quality, or amaturish by many on this site, but she is doing quite well with sales, and she was interviewed recently about her brand, as well as being picked up by Zappos.com. Again, she works her butt off promoting her brand.

An intersting video relating to art sales is Con Artist, it is the story of Mark Kostabi. It may open your eyes to how a brand can be made , good or bad.

When someone is doing better than you in sales you need to look at what they are doing right compared to you. Price may not even be a factor. Is their quality better, do they ship faster, do they have better customer service, are they reaching a bigger audience, are they getting the same materials at a much lower cost, what is it that they are doing that you are not? Chief may want to try selling one at what it "should" cost, he may be surprised at how fast one may move at that price. Or, he will confirm his previous thoughts. All handmade leather products are not the same,even if one copies someone else. There are still differences in quality, customer service, etc..I am sure that the well informed can tell the difference between a Gucci, and a Chinese knockoff. I would prefer an original Winchester 97 at a higher price than the less expensive Chinese copy. They look the same, but the quality is vastly different. A pig is still a pig no matter how much lipstick you put on it.

Well , one thing we agree on is that Chief does nice work.

[bluesman1951]

As always beautiful work Ken. Cheryl

I have a small journey for you to take . In goggle type :Joe and LeJune Chaves art work images . They are from Santo Domingo Pueblo I have know them for many years . Perhaps you will enjoy the work ,they are at the top of their game and very famous as well . Many times their work is in Cow Boys and Indians magazine . They are premier artists very well known in the south west . Hope you enjoy ! Bill

[Bob Blea]

Biggundoctor, I agree with you completely. I know I need to improve my salesmanship and learn how to market. I'm getting the leather skills down, now I need to learn these things to sell my works. Being able to tell people about the quality and why it's important is probably my biggest hurdle to overcome right now.

Bob

[Pound]

whatever it is , this is nice work. Pricing is always tricky as Etsy is now an international site and serves international customers.

[DoubleC]

DoubleC, you mentioned people don't know Jack about leather (many don't know Jack about cars either). Sounds like you may have a marketing problem. If they don't know Jack , you need to introduce them to Jack so they know everything about him. That is the whole premiss of marketing, informing your customer base about your product, and why they should buy it. Don't expect your guitar straps to sell themselves, you need to sell the customer on them. In all actuallity you need to sell DoubleC more than the product, you need to build your brand so that when someone at the local music store inquires about custom straps your name comes up first. Your brand will be based on quality, performance, customer service, price, and most importantly what the customer perceives your value to be. There are also sites like Kickstarter out there that can help you get your business off the ground. I have friends who have gone that route.

I am still laughing over this. I have introduced my customers to Jack and some like him, some don't and that's the way of sales. I am fairly new at this and I make a quality product that gets a little 'prettier' perhaps every time I make one. I'm not even 'officially' open for business and starting to sell in a small but seemingly steady stream which just tickles me no end, it's a high every-time I make a 25 buck sale where as most people would consider that small potatoes.

I am working my tail off (which is good because the tail looked a little funny on me) to get a grant from VOC Rehab and that will go through in October if there aren't any more holdups. so since January I've paid for and built up my product line with my own limited funds, and a LOT of help from people on here from sending me tools and books to just the vast amount of information available here. I actually don't expect etsy to be the market for my guitar straps, but more so for my jewelry. I fill in the shop with other stuff I make so I look like I know what I'm doing. I have two local musicians in this area wearing my straps and handing out business cards. Even the vet on etsy that just bought the jewelry wants some business cards for her clients, and she's in California and I'm in VT so now I'm a national seller :-)

A friend of mine from VT went to a conference in VA. and roomed with a man from OH. He came back with an epi-pen holder order for me since everything I do is custom made, he just assumed I could do it. And I did. A mistake here and there, restarting but nothing goes out my door until I'm happy with it even though the customer may never have noticed. This man wants business cards to hand out too in Ohio for when people see his shark inlaid epi-pen holder. I'm happy with my sales and I'm happy with how my marketing is finally kicking off to places I never imagined.

I think educating people about guitar straps is going to be more of an up close and personal thing for a while around here. Even the musicians don't seem to know what all goes into one of these. However, my jewelry is one of a kind so it speaks for itself and will do better on the net.

I'm just happy to belong to a place like this where discussions can take place and be friendly and enlightening. Cheryl

[DoubleC]

Biggundoctor, I agree with you completely. I know I need to improve my salesmanship and learn how to market. I'm getting the leather skills down, now I need to learn these things to sell my works. Being able to tell people about the quality and why it's important is probably my biggest hurdle to overcome right now.

Bob

Bob I think most of us starting out, or maybe always will have a hard time promoting ourselves. We're brought up not to brag, and no matter how you seem to phrase it, it seems like bragging. Yet my life has be physically threaten ed if I give ONE more product away before I sell at least 5 :-) Cheryl

[Mijo]

This is a very interesting thread, one that i've been following since it was originally posted. I'm in the same boat as Chief, in that I tend to under value the cost of labor / craftsmanship that goes into the products that I make, when calculating the price at retail. And just like chief, I'm fine with it as I know (and have already seen) that the more products I make the better I get at it (i.e. develope a better work flow, reduce the amount of time to make each item, etc.). I've already seen a significant reduction in the time it takes to make one of my newer products, dog bag holder / holster, just by changing the order in which I do things. I've calculated the cost of labor for each type of the product that I make and while it isn't consistent for the various products I make (i.e. dog collars, harnesses, leads, couplers, ID tags, etc.) it does range from $10 - $20 / hour. As I find more efficient ways to make the same products quicker (without sacrificing quality) more of the sales for that product will cover the cost of the labor, given that the cost of supplies remains the same. This gives me motivation / incentive to find more ways to streamline my processes and be able to make the same products at a faster rate.

I tend to price my products based not on what it actually costs (i.e. supplies, overhead, labor) but on what my competitors are charging for similar products, or what my immediate / local market will support. I love this forum and these types of threads, where members can discuss important issues in a civil manner and share thoughts and ideas.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

CHERYL,

sounds like you are making a good start with your items. Along with a busines card, a line card may also be in order. The line card can say more than a business card can. The line cards that the artists I know use usually have an artist bio/statement, as well as general information about the art that they are selling. They are the size of a standard postcard. In Las Vegas thay are not that expensive to get printed up, but your mileage may vary. Keep increasing your price till you see sales start to slow, then you know you are pretty much at the best price range for your products.

Dave Ramsey also has a whole program dedicated to small businesses that may be helpful too. Funny how the definition of a small business is up to 500 employees!

I have a good friend who has become a very accomplished artist over the past 4 years. One thing I noticed was that he didn't start out with low priced art, he priced it at what he felt it was worth. It has paid off for him, not because he was stubborn, but he is that good, and more people are discovering him.He has only been painting for 4 years,and encaustics for around 2 years now (he has done pen&ink for over 20). Many of us think that he made a pact with the Devil to be this good =). He is now selling paintings in the 5 figure range, and he just keeps getting better. He works in a medium that is not well known (encaustics -painting with wax), he also has a persona that plays to his brand. Having something unique can be a game changer in sales. You can see his art at 303 North Studio on Facebook. His name is James Henninger, and he is in Las Vegas.

A lot of things go into being successful in business,and sometimes it just takes being in the right place at the right time, or meeting the right person who makes it fly.

I am looking to start another business soon. I have 60 ideas for products, websites, and services that I want to explore. Been sitting on them far too long.

Edited July 17, 2012 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[DoubleC]

Hey Big. I have better than a line card, I actually have folders made up to give to people when I finally get around to some local cold sales. My VOW worker did them. has a bio of me, the business and an explanation of my major products although as you can see, if someone wants an epi-pen holder, I'll make an epi-pen holder and keep making it until I do it right.

I have three orgs. helping me right now, VOW who does everything kinda, and most importantly coordinates with all the other Agencies, BROC (don't ask me what the acronyms mean, after 7 months still don't know :-) who is helping me write my business plan so I can give that to VOC Rehab who is going to give me a grant to really kick things off, but in the meantime I've been making up products and if they sell now, that's great. That's when I'm happy, working on products. sometimes, as important as I know it is, the paperwork side of things make my eyes glaze over, LOL. But my VOW worker made me an excel sheet to keep track of things and I'm about 1/3 successful at doing that now, maybe more. Now that things are finally starting to sell, maybe I'll be more motivated to do it, but usually once a month I look at receipts and paypal to see what I spent, oh and my bank account if I don't have a receipt. I'm not sure I even know how to add the things I sell, LOL.

My VOW worker who is a musician actually talked me into pricing my guitar straps lower than I wanted here, and actually that was against the advice of BROC who pointed out you can come down easier than go up. But on Etsy I think I have them priced morel appropriately. I guess time will tell on that.

Anyway, it's been a long road starting up. Hopefully I'll have the grant by October which will be almost a year to the day that I decided to do this. And although I've spent a lot of money I shouldn't have and made a lot of mistakes, it's almost like I had to do that so I would be a smarter business person when I actually have all the pieces put together.

OH and I'm so excited AGAIN (doesn't take much, LOL) because I'm moving into the apartment across the hall from me that has an extra room that I can use just for the leather work instead of all over the house like here. I'm really tired of taking a running dive at my bed, LOL.

[J Allen]

Ok, some will never understand.

It is a Wal-Mart mentality that kills/killed the American Craftsman.

When folks sell themselves short such as a:

$20 hand tooled laced wallet

$35.00 hand tooled belt.

or whatever it is....

Those grossly under priced items are what the general public set as their value of the item. Same as crappy made items from China or so called "tooled" items from Mexico. Granted some of the people making stuff in these countries do fine work, that's not the point. The point is for those who value their time, skill and materials enough to get a reasonable price for their items are the ones who further the craft from a hokey cheese ball "i dunnit on my kitchen table" hobby mentality to what it should be is a craft that people recognize as one that deserves the prices.

now working on the kitchen table isn't the point either, I have seen phenomenal stuff made on a kitchen table. The point is it wasn't the kitchen table, it was the craftsman.

When I first started I made a few wallets an sold them cheap. Then I realized I loved this medium. Then I looked at what I was doing... and realized I was given a gift to make items that others would give money for. This gift needed cultivation and is still evolving but it is something that I believe demands I get paid for doing. My prices began to climb... so did the sales. I did finally reach a point that the price met a ceiling. Then I assessed the situation and yup I was happy at that price. I do not sell 50 pieces a month. I sell 10-12. I make the same money as if I was doing 50 though. (actually closer to 70). I do not ever think I want to get to the place where I have to sell 50 to make it work.

I do not have a website. I do not do craft shows. I do not wholesale and I do not undersell myself.Most items I do are "stock" items no customization or frills. I do the occasional custom piece and charge a premium for it. I am as busy as I want to be and make a decent living doing it.

If you want to compete with China or Walmart... you will lose, every time.

Just for clarification, I think that Chiefs stuff is very nice. It definitely warrants more more than he is asking... that's the whole reason I even said anything in the beginning.

Edited July 18, 2012 by J Allen

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

JAllen, where do you sell your items since you mentioned no wabsite, wholesaling, or shows.

[J Allen]

I dont do craftshows. I do occasional trunk shows and mainly it comes from relationships and word of mouth referals.referrals. i have a few pieces in boutiques but they pay full freight pricing and mark it up. I will discount if they buy 5 pieces or more. So i guess that is a bit like wholesaling but i do that for regular folks as well.

I do not do the web as it is just a way for others to copy. Too many times i have seen good folks stuff copied by overseas and unfortunately stateside makers who have not ever had an original thought... ever. Aounds a bit bitter but early on i had a very popular model stolen and mass produced by a maker in China. Copied it down to the arteork and number of stitches (i used a special stich length sequence for visual effect). Kind of soured the sales and my outlook on what i was doing. Si im nce then i changed designs and my approach to the web. I will not post ky stuff online... anywhere and i have only seen a few examples of my stuff posted in fashion blogs and forums. I like it better that way. I might not ever get "famous" with my stuff not on the web but im ok with that.

[DoubleC]

J. allen we had a guy come on here trying to sell us stuff he admitted to haven reproduced from work here. He couldn't see the irony in that or the fact it's a wonder people didn't track him down and hurt him a lot. He was from Asia, and I think he really didn't understand that was wrong. Don't know how they raise some of those kids there or what their value system is.

[Artimus]

http://www.etsy.com/shop/ChiefsLeatherWorks?ref=si_shop

Links to banjo strap youtube videos on your etsy page aren't working

[Chief31794]

I don't have any banjo strap videos on youtube, I have some guitar strap videos, the links to them aren't links they're URLs, you have to cut and past them into your browser. I posted the url's on several of the items like the banjo strap because the techniques are the same.

Chief