Service,

[Sharpshooter]

We're a production sheath making business, cranking out 350 to 500 sheaths a week, every week.

A good sewing machine is vital because if we're not sewing, we're not working. When I started out doing research on machines I went with the Toro 3000 because it seemed to be the right machine to start with. Keep in mind that we're using this machine 8 hours a day, 5 days a week on sheaths that range from 3/8” to darn near 7/8” thick.

I need another machine to take the business to the next level, with increased production from another big client.

I'm NOT going to be shopping for the next machine, no internet time searching for reviews, no looking for the best deal or for free shipping. To make a purchase decision without research is not good business sense and any Business School Graduate will tell you 300 different reasons to not do that.

That may be the current conventional thinking, but it's not the thinking my grandfather would would follow. He would agree with me 100%.

See, the reason I'm NOT going to shop for my next machine is because I have found someone who does business the way my grandfather did, the way I learned to do things.

The workout we give “Oliver” (the name my Team of Girls has bestowed upon the Toro 3000) does cause him to show occasional signs of fatigue. It's a great machine that performs far beyond what anyone could expect of it but we still run into problems once in a while. In the course of a month we probably put better than a year's worth of mileage on Oliver so it stands to reason that things are just going to happen.

But every time something goes wrong that I can't figure out from past experience, I just ring up Steve at Artisan and he walks me right through.

Steve seems to have figured me out well enough to just let me grumble a bit when Oliver is giving me a bad time before getting into fixing the machine.

Wisdom is Knowledge Shared, and Steve personifies that. He has walked me through timing the machine and finding the mysterious knock that turned out to be a wad of thread in the bobbin case. It's always with a smile in his voice and just enough confidence to let me know that we will figure it out and get Oliver back on the job.

Steve does a fantastic job of getting my machine back on line and I appreciate it more than he can imagine but he does something else, that I don't know he's even aware of....

It's not reasonable to expect that nothing will go wrong when we buy something; the more complicated something is, the more likely a problem is. I don't buy things expecting that it's going to be perfect and I don't measure quality by that standard.

The Standard my grandfather taught we was simply to measure quality by how the problem is handled when it comes up. Steve handles problems the way it should be, not a 30 minute hold time while they research sales records to verify that you are entitled to ask questions. Steve just handles the issue and makes sure you know that YOU are important to Artisan when you hang up the phone.

Like I said, I'm NOT shopping when it's time to add the next machine.... I'm calling Steve and telling him to pick out the next machine I need and send it. I think I'll let him name it as well, Oliver sounds like a name a bunch of women would give a machine.... we need something more masculine for the next one.

[Johanna]

I have heard quite a few members sing the praises of Artisan's extra special customer service. I wish Artisan made lawn mowers, too. I think it is smart to ask people you trust for recommendations, so I agree with Grandpa. They will steer you to the machine that fits your needs and your budget.

You could call the next machine "The Steve"- that sounds pretty masculine!

Let us know what machine you decide to go with. I'm sure others will want to know the reasons Steve selects the machine for you.

Best of luck!

Johanna

[Bree]

How do you decide between three different distributors of essentially the same machine all claiming good after the sale service including technical service and user reports confirming the claims. That is the quandry that I have.

Price is important but it isn't everything. I know that Artisan has a strong machine and great service. Users report that the Cowboy and Neel's Saddlery machines are good and that Neel never let's them down when they need help. Users rate Raphael Sewing's machines very highly and praise Raphael's service. Artisan's are the most expensive followed by Neel's and Raphael. At least on paper it looks that way.

They have all been in business for some time. They are all professional and knowledgeable. How does one decide? By the time it's all over, we are talking in excess of $3,000 which is a good sized piece of change for a sewing machine especially for a little business like mine.

I end up getting down to very fine points of difference to make a decision.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Bree

[Art]

Hi Bree,

Most of the Chinese manufacturers make a decent machine. Problem is, we aren't in China. We are dependent on the distributors and dealers for selection and service. I can speak to Artisan, Ferdco, Pfaff, Juki, and Adler (German not Chinese) and they are all very good machines, with the Germans and the Japanese producing the best products manufacturing wise. Nonetheless, I have run the dog snot out of a Chinese big stitcher (900 rpm for hours on end stitching Kevlar thread on fire blankets and elevator padding doing quilting which is long runs at high speed over and over) without a whimper. This is a Highlead machine, the same base machine as an Artisan.

If you go to any of the big shows (usually out West), you will see 3 or more sewing machine dealers/distributors. But let's talk about the East coast or mid shows like the IFoLG show that will be in Columbus OH this fall and in Indiana next year. Sometimes you see a whopping 10 vendors or so at these shows and attendance is not really that high. You only see ONE sewing machine company at these, and it is always Artisan. They sell maybe 2 or 3 machines there which would never cover the cost of hauling that trailer all across the country and room and board from LA and back. I'm sure they HOPE they make costs. I asked Jerry why they do it and he said because we see our friends and visit with them and that's enough. Kind of like when you buy an Artisan, you buy a relationship.

Artisan gets so much ink here because the machines are good and the company and people are SO DAMNED GOOD. The little extra you may pay now won't seem like much a year down the road.

And what dealer do you know that will help you fix someone else's machine? A machine they didn't sell you, that one of their competitors sold you; over the phone and on their dime.

Art

How do you decide between three different distributors of essentially the same machine all claiming good after the sale service including technical service and user reports confirming the claims. That is the quandry that I have.

Price is important but it isn't everything. I know that Artisan has a strong machine and great service. Users report that the Cowboy and Neel's Saddlery machines are good and that Neel never let's them down when they need help. Users rate Raphael Sewing's machines very highly and praise Raphael's service. Artisan's are the most expensive followed by Neel's and Raphael. At least on paper it looks that way.

They have all been in business for some time. They are all professional and knowledgeable. How does one decide? By the time it's all over, we are talking in excess of $3,000 which is a good sized piece of change for a sewing machine especially for a little business like mine.

I end up getting down to very fine points of difference to make a decision.

[BillB]

Bree,

What helped me decide was looking at the complete package which included the stand/table. Since I do both flat work so I needed a flat bed. I also do bags, and that requires a cylinder. I also needed in a setup that I could use with a comfortable chair due to an problem with my legs. It also had to be on a rolling carriage since the room I use is shared with my wife's weaving looms. It also had to be a stable platform that would not shake, rattle or roll either itself or the house. Since I live in Virginia and my survey showed that all the dealers and importers were out west, I figured on paying shipping and having to do maintenance my self with aid over the phone. So, although the Sewing Head and its design and performance were primary concern there were lots of other decision point on my decision tree as well.

I have not told you what machine I bought and I won't. I think it is much more important that you understand my logic tree so you understand how I arrived at my decision. This will allow you to build your own logic tree and come to your own decision.

Am I happy with my decision. Yes. The day it arrived, I had it assembled and up and running. Did I have some issues, only with some of the supplies that were shipped, but that was quickly resolved over the phone. As Sharpshooter has mentioned, Dealer Support and their attitude is important and should be in your decision tree.

I wish you luck in finding the machine that fits your requirements.

BillB

[Bree]

Artisan has the strongest support. That seems pretty clear. They also have another advantage for me and that is the T-4000 LA-25 machine. For my patch business the longer arm makes my work much easier on certain kinds of jobs where I have to scrunch vests and large patches under the arm which greatly increases the chances of my ruffling some lining and sewing it improperly or of my patch moving out of line as I sew.

The long arm is also of great value for odd things that come along like awnings, tents, and large tarps that I am sometimes called upon to repair. The 16" arm is great and I have one now in the form of my 29K60. However that machine can't sew really thick leather hence it is unsuitable for the kind of work I plan to do in the future.

If I choose to get the longer 25" arm, Artisan is really the only reasonable game in town. At the 16" length there are several good competitors. Those are my thoughts right now.

I appreciate the comments that you all have made. They are very helpful. We'll see. It is still a hard choice for me and it strains my budget... but ya do what ya have to do!

[Art]

Hi Bree,

Artisan has hands down the best price on the 25". I have always asked myself why I would buy a 16 instead of a 25 based on the price. The answer is it is a monster. If you have the room, it is kind of good that the price is what it is on the 25. For most companies, they KNOW you have a special need when you want a 25 and they really zap you on price, the 16 and 25 are really not that much different and I think the Artisan price is really fair. Now if you want a 36 inch machine, the price goes through the roof and I can see the reasonability in that, the things weigh twice as much and the stand is the Godzilla of stands.

Art

Artisan has the strongest support. That seems pretty clear. They also have another advantage for me and that is the T-4000 LA-25 machine. For my patch business the longer arm makes my work much easier on certain kinds of jobs where I have to scrunch vests and large patches under the arm which greatly increases the chances of my ruffling some lining and sewing it improperly or of my patch moving out of line as I sew.

The long arm is also of great value for odd things that come along like awnings, tents, and large tarps that I am sometimes called upon to repair. The 16" arm is great and I have one now in the form of my 29K60. However that machine can't sew really thick leather hence it is unsuitable for the kind of work I plan to do in the future.

If I choose to get the longer 25" arm, Artisan is really the only reasonable game in town. At the 16" length there are several good competitors. Those are my thoughts right now.

I appreciate the comments that you all have made. They are very helpful. We'll see. It is still a hard choice for me and it strains my budget... but ya do what ya have to do!

[Ian]

Once again, Leatherworker.net has read my mind and given the answers before I asked them. I'm looking to get another heavy stitcher and was wondering about the Toro. I think all my questions have been answered today, except, one small one:

How much of an imprint does the foot leave on the leather top and bottom? I'm speaking mostly harness and bridle.

[Bree]

Hi Bree,

Artisan has hands down the best price on the 25". I have always asked myself why I would buy a 16 instead of a 25 based on the price. The answer is it is a monster. If you have the room, it is kind of good that the price is what it is on the 25. For most companies, they KNOW you have a special need when you want a 25 and they really zap you on price, the 16 and 25 are really not that much different and I think the Artisan price is really fair. Now if you want a 36 inch machine, the price goes through the roof and I can see the reasonability in that, the things weigh twice as much and the stand is the Godzilla of stands.

Art

Great minds think alike. Exactly my thoughts. Artisan Dave gave me some additional info which I will share.

1) The Head Weights are as follows: TORO 4000R is 135 pounds, The 4000R LA-25 is 220 pounds.

2) Shipping weights are approximately 350 lbs and 675. Weight varies depending on the actual weight of the shipping pallet used.

Also they can set the R Series T-4000's to sew 415 thread.

The cast iron stand used with the LA-25 is the monster here. The machine head is manageably larger but the stand is HUGE! I would be afraid to put it into my sewing room because it is not on concrete. I would hate to have a 700 pound sewing machine and accoutrement come crashing through the floor joists!!

I would LOVE to have that 25" arm though. There is no doubt about it and the few hundred extra is well worth the money. The problem is the sheer mass of the total unit. Even getting it from the truck inside is a challenge. It really wants a forklift to move it around.

[Art]

Hi Ian,

For harness or bridle, I doubt you would need the drop feed so you would get it setup with a needle feed plate on the bottom. You can use the left foot that comes with it that seldom marks or something special from Steve. If you turn corners (of course you do) you can grind or file the nib off the center foot and buff it smooth or they probably make one without it. This and the pressure foot pressure adjustment seems to cure most marking. Of course, don't sew wet leather. However, I have seen a couple of 3000s that don't mark out of the box, dogs and all.

Art

Once again, Leatherworker.net has read my mind and given the answers before I asked them. I'm looking to get another heavy stitcher and was wondering about the Toro. I think all my questions have been answered today, except, one small one:

How much of an imprint does the foot leave on the leather top and bottom? I'm speaking mostly harness and bridle.

[rdb]

My 3000 doesn't leave a mark.

From my understanding, they've modified the standard mfg. parts to do what we want. and need. Depending on the leather, the bottom stitch looks as good as the top. The servo motor is a gawdsend, it'll go as slow as a turtle through molasses if you want it too, and zip through a length of strap faster than you can cut it off the hide.

Artisan set it up beautiful before shipping. I'm convinced it'll sew plywood if I wanted it to. In the beginning I had some troubles (user ones), Steve answered the phone each time , no lovely on-hold music. He was in no hurry, he talked me through it, and offered 16 other suggestions to boot. Sounds like a great guy.

Between the service, the price and the product, there's only one company I'll deal with.

[Art]

Hi Bree,

On Jackets, I did a bunch of these in the 80's, M/C, School, Team, you name it. I still have partnerships in a few team shops. For patches on sleeves or shoulders, there is nothing like a 29 or 30, I guess that's why they call it a patcher. For sewing jacket backs (or fronts) I recommend removing the lining, sewing on the patch, and reinstalling the lining. It looks better and there is less chance of stitching the lining in the wrong place, it also hides a multitude of things. Also designing a flat bed table that wheels into place makes it easier to do heavier jackets. Artisan makes something like that which attaches to the 3000, but I don't know if they have something for the bigger machines. It would have to be custom for the 25s and 36s.

Also, weight is not as big a factor as you might think when you distribute it over a large area. If a 200-250 lb person can stand with their feet together in a spot, there is not much likelihood that even a big stitcher will go crashing through the floor. Have the whole family stand where you are going to have the machine and if you survive, the machine will probably be OK too.

Art

Great minds think alike. Exactly my thoughts. Artisan Dave gave me some additional info which I will share.

1) The Head Weights are as follows: TORO 4000R is 135 pounds, The 4000R LA-25 is 220 pounds.

2) Shipping weights are approximately 350 lbs and 675. Weight varies depending on the actual weight of the shipping pallet used.

Also they can set the R Series T-4000's to sew 415 thread.

The cast iron stand used with the LA-25 is the monster here. The machine head is manageably larger but the stand is HUGE! I would be afraid to put it into my sewing room because it is not on concrete. I would hate to have a 700 pound sewing machine and accoutrement come crashing through the floor joists!!

I would LOVE to have that 25" arm though. There is no doubt about it and the few hundred extra is well worth the money. The problem is the sheer mass of the total unit. Even getting it from the truck inside is a challenge. It really wants a forklift to move it around.

[Ian]

Hi Ian,

For harness or bridle, I doubt you would need the drop feed so you would get it setup with a needle feed plate on the bottom. You can use the left foot that comes with it that seldom marks or something special from Steve. If you turn corners (of course you do) you can grind or file the nib off the center foot and buff it smooth or they probably make one without it. This and the pressure foot pressure adjustment seems to cure most marking. Of course, don't sew wet leather. However, I have seen a couple of 3000s that don't mark out of the box, dogs and all.

Art

Thanks Art, that has been the biggest issue with my machine. I use a center foot that I've ground down pretty good, but still occionally have a marking problem - not, of course with veg tan, but the stuffed leathers, it drives me nuts. I'm getting a new business set up right now, so Artisan will definitely be an addition.

[Bree]

Hi Bree,

On Jackets, I did a bunch of these in the 80's, M/C, School, Team, you name it. I still have partnerships in a few team shops. For patches on sleeves or shoulders, there is nothing like a 29 or 30, I guess that's why they call it a patcher. For sewing jacket backs (or fronts) I recommend removing the lining, sewing on the patch, and reinstalling the lining. It looks better and there is less chance of stitching the lining in the wrong place, it also hides a multitude of things. Also designing a flat bed table that wheels into place makes it easier to do heavier jackets. Artisan makes something like that which attaches to the 3000, but I don't know if they have something for the bigger machines. It would have to be custom for the 25s and 36s.

Also, weight is not as big a factor as you might think when you distribute it over a large area. If a 200-250 lb person can stand with their feet together in a spot, there is not much likelihood that even a big stitcher will go crashing through the floor. Have the whole family stand where you are going to have the machine and if you survive, the machine will probably be OK too.

Art

Yep... I fully expect to have to make a custom wheel-in flatbed table for the device. I have a complete woodworking shop in the basement with several hundred BF of White Oak and Hard Maple so that shouldn't be too difficult other than making the time for it.

I wonder if it is possible to use one of their other lighter stands with the LA-25?

[Art]

Hi Bree,

Jerry has been in the sewing machine business since the camel wore sandals and I don't think he would put it on the big stand if it wasn't necessary. I would give him a call 1-888-838-1408 and see what he says. Those guys know what they are doing and I don't think they will sell you something that won't work. The newer motors are a bit lighter and offer less of a counterpoise to the head weight outboard of the column, so you might really need the additional support of the big column on the Heavy stand.

Make sure to get lift gate delivery; the driver will have a pallet jack with him and will put it wherever you want it and he can get to. I usually tip them $20. Then get the spot ready and clear a path to it and call over three heavy duty dudes, anyone who can stand up a Harley will do really well. The head and stand are usually apart so that's half the battle. If the stand has casters, then that is a big plus, otherwise put a couple of furniture pads on the floor so you can slide without scratching (the floor not the stand). If you have steps, prepare for a little cussing and screaming (a case of bud doesn't hurt here either). After you get the stand where you want it, it is just a matter of bolting the head on, no mean feat, but three guys and a little teamwork will get it on the stand and the bolts in, everything will fit. A couple of Crescent wrenches will help. At this point you might want to call Steve and let him walk you through everything, he's a great guy and has the patience of Job.

To save a little money (but it will require a little effort) Jerry and Steve will be at the IFoLG show in Columbus, Ohio September 26, 27, and 28 and might be able to deliver a machine to you there, it would save the shipping, of course you would need a pickup or a trailer (or both). You would have to work that out with them.

Art

Yep... I fully expect to have to make a custom wheel-in flatbed table for the device. I have a complete woodworking shop in the basement with several hundred BF of White Oak and Hard Maple so that shouldn't be too difficult other than making the time for it.

I wonder if it is possible to use one of their other lighter stands with the LA-25?

[Bree]

Hi Bree,

Jerry has been in the sewing machine business since the camel wore sandals and I don't think he would put it on the big stand if it wasn't necessary. I would give him a call 1-888-838-1408 and see what he says. Those guys know what they are doing and I don't think they will sell you something that won't work. The newer motors are a bit lighter and offer less of a counterpoise to the head weight outboard of the column, so you might really need the additional support of the big column on the Heavy stand.

Make sure to get lift gate delivery; the driver will have a pallet jack with him and will put it wherever you want it and he can get to. I usually tip them $20. Then get the spot ready and clear a path to it and call over three heavy duty dudes, anyone who can stand up a Harley will do really well. The head and stand are usually apart so that's half the battle. If the stand has casters, then that is a big plus, otherwise put a couple of furniture pads on the floor so you can slide without scratching (the floor not the stand). If you have steps, prepare for a little cussing and screaming (a case of bud doesn't hurt here either). After you get the stand where you want it, it is just a matter of bolting the head on, no mean feat, but three guys and a little teamwork will get it on the stand and the bolts in, everything will fit. A couple of Crescent wrenches will help. At this point you might want to call Steve and let him walk you through everything, he's a great guy and has the patience of Job.

To save a little money (but it will require a little effort) Jerry and Steve will be at the IFoLG show in Columbus, Ohio September 26, 27, and 28 and might be able to deliver a machine to you there, it would save the shipping, of course you would need a pickup or a trailer (or both). You would have to work that out with them.

Art

Not a bad idea to take the Dodge RAM over to the Columbus Show. I have never been to one and I would probably enjoy it very much plus I might well come home with a nice machine!

I know what you mean about the stairs. My table saw weighed almost 500 pounds and it had to go down the stairs. That was a trial to be sure. It took 3 guys to get that thing off the truck, get it off the pallet and down the stairs. Pain in the butt. I have a bunch of other equipment where the weight was 300-400 pounds. Each piece has its own challenge.

Getting the head and the stand separated is a huge part of the battle. And if the top of the stand is separable from the bottom that nibbles the weight down as well. I think the HD stand will break down into at least three parts... the table, the pedestal, and the base. That would knock the problem down considerably cuz you can open the boxes on the truck and take out each discreet part and cart each one in.

UR right about the motors. The new servos weigh less than the old clutch motors. But I think the pedestal is carrying the full weight of the machine head. It is a monster pedestal.

If it comes in two crates, I would pick it up at the terminal in my Dodge RAM and have helpers unload it from the pickup. That how I did all the equipment I bought at Grizzly. Forklift just parked the pallets on the Dodge RAM and off I went. Had to leave it all on the truck overnight due to a rainstorm. Next day it all came off easy as pie.