Singer 111W155 Timing/thread Issues

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Love the number of people here who give free advice. Every sewing machine owner needs to be able to make their machine work from base principles as no new mechanics are being trained and all of us need to be able to pass on the simple things that make machines work.

Eric, Bob, Ronnie, Steve, Wiz and others have freely given the sort of advice that many others would charge hundreds of dollars for! For any potential purchaser of a leather sewing machine it is well worth looking at how your preferred dealer interacts with customers. On this site we consistently see dealers offering free advice even when people have bought from other dealers. What does that tell you about the actual cost of buying a machine?

[gottaknow]

I think the dealers here are very generous with their information. I don't have a "dog in the fight" so to speak since I'm not a dealer. I think their willingness to help is a great asset to this site. In return of course, there can be financial gain for them. That's the great thing about a free site that is supported by sponsors. As consumers, we're free to choose who to do business with based on good information that's presented. I have bought some products from a sponsor here and been very satisfied.

I've seen some sites where the sponsors openly argue in the forums. Not cool. I've only seen a few subtle hints here and reminders to give all the sponsors a look see. If I were in the market for a machine, there's easily enough information here to make a good choice. Since most people don't have ready access to a journeyman mechanic, you can't beat a dealer with good support. I simply love helping people with their machines and despise so called industrial mechanics who charge money and don't solve problems.

I have during my career apprenticed several mechanics. It takes five years in a factory setting. As Darren pointed out, there's not many of us factory guys around anymore. My long term goal is to consolidate my teaching experience and provide it to people in a manner they can apply to their machines. When I retire from the factory setting, I'd like to tour this great country with my wife in a motorhome. It's very likely I'll supplement my income with machine repair.

Regards, Eric

[dmar836]

Mine is now sewing and I have run it a decent bit BUT I notice that it is starting to break top threads again as the thread slips out of the slot in base of the bobbin to form the knot. It appears to hang in the slot and just keeps traveling back into the groove in the hook about parallel to the needle. It is supposed to end up down in the small slot in the bottom of the bobbin isn't it? It appears that the hook takes the thread at the needle and passes it into that small bobbin slot and that it comes out of that slot about the time the slot is back around at the needle. No amount of opener adjustment seams to change it. I do admit need a new plate with a better defined notch on the bottom.

Interesting thing is this happens only when I hand turn the machine as in around a curve or when restarting by hand. If I just take off with the motor it won't do it. I sanded on the bobbin "slots" last week when I discovered that is where it was breaking theads andit began behaving. It is doing it again now and I wonder if the slot(which acts somewhat like a hook) is grooved at the base and holding the top thread too long. It this a common sign of a worn out bobbin or am I confused about where the top thread is supposed to track?

Dave

Wow, I can't type!

[gottaknow]

Have you oiled the bobbin basket since you began sewing? If not, I'd start with that. The bobbin basket needs lubed on the side where the hook rotates around it. If not, it will drag and make your latch opener adjustment ineffective. It needs just one drop each day you sew. Set the tip of your oil can anywhere along the flat curved piece with the 3 tiny screws in it that retains the basket. That way you can't miss. I'd start with that.

Regards, Eric

[dmar836]

Yeah I tried that. There is no "felt strip" anywhere on my bobbin as shown in the various manuals. I'll look at the timing again as we'll but that's where the breakage is occurring just as the take up arm is rising and the top thread is hanging up somehow when that slot is exposed by the groove in the hook. It all gets very tight just before the break.

[dmar836]

So oiled everything and retarded the timing a tad. This time it took off with the motor just fine as usual. When I restarted by hand I felt it get bound so I flipped it up and the top thread was getting UNDER the hook and broke as the hook tries to take it around the second time. Hmmmm

So I'm wondering, can the timing be 180 out? Since the hook spins twice for each needle bar cycle, could there be any advantage to retiming everything to have the hook meet the needle on the currently "wasted" rotation?

Just spit balling,

Dave

[dmar836]

Just did it again using a larger needle I have determined that when this happens it is always after I have moved the material( in this case leather) a bit between stitches. So with the needle in the material I lift the foot a bit and turn the material maybe 90 degrees, maybe 180, maybe just a few degrees. It is when I then restart(usually manually) that I feel the hangup and the break occurs about the 2nd or 3rd stitch. I guess what I need to find is why is the slight twisting of thread around the needle is causing such a change with the hook action? Hmmmm

Dave

[gottaknow]

You need to back up some Dave and set your hook timing back to what I call neutral. When the needle bar has risen 3/32", the point of the hook should be centered on the needle. I usually set the hook centered into the "scarf" of the needle, the very center of the dreppression. If your machine was 180 degrees out it wouldn't sew. Once you get your timing back to neutral, double check your latch opener. Remember, you want it to pull the basket just far enough open to allow the thread to pass the little tab without pinching. The felt for the bobbin runs up the center of the hook shaft. Don't worry too much about because you still have to oil the basket each time you use the machine of if it's been sitting for a while. Oh, and if your throat plate is worn out, the tab of the basket will jump out.

Also, turn your material with your needle all the way down. Remember way back in this thread when I said to always keep in mind what your loop is doing. When your needle is all the way down, there is no loop. You turn your fabric, the needle bar starts to rise, forming the loop for the hook. If your needle bar has already began to rise, you can move your loop sideways, twist it around the needle, have the needle descend through the loop, breaking your thread and so on.

Regards, Eric

Edited December 3, 2012 by gottaknow

[dmar836]

Awesome. I'll take another look at it ASAP. It also occurred to me that the thread could be less than ideal. I have been using 16/4 "button thread" which I have used with success on other machines. Perhaps that is another issue.

Thanks a bunch!

Dave

[dmar836]

Retimed and played a bit after work this am. I can not, for the life of me, tell what would make the top thread drop down around the outside of the hook. The pointed tip clearly guides the thread into the recess of the hook but then somehow the thread occasionally, after manipulation from turning the material (even with the needle all the way down), ends up falling down to the base of the hook and around the hard cut edges on the bottom of the hook body. Of course it can't form a knot as it can not slip out of there. By the time the point of the hook is back around to the needle, the thread is stretched around that much longer path and snaps as the take-up lever ascends.

I sure bet you are all tired of my posts and apparent takover of the is thread. I would seek local help but I'm beginning to think I'm about the best bet this day and age!

Still suspecting the thread too so I'll need to experiment.

Dave

[gottaknow]

Color me crazy, but in my experience, when your needle thread is slack or tight at the wrong time, your top and bottom shaft timing could be off 1 tooth. Even different thread shouldn't produce what I understand you're saying is happening. If I get time at work tommorow, I'll take a video of the relationship between the take up lever, the path of the thread, the latch opener etc.

Having apprenticed several mechanics over the years, they all hit a wall (or several) on a machine. I would always tell them that "The machine you're looking at has the ability to sew correctly. It's like a puzzle. If you have a piece in the wrong place, even though it seems to fit at the time, when you get to the end of putting the puzzle together, it won't fit."

You can have certain things off a bit, and the machine will sew somewhat. It won't be consistent however and will be "touchy". On an industrial machine in a factory, a machine like I've described gets taken out of service and replaced with a back-up until the correct adjustments are made. You've made a tremendous amount of progress in your knowledge of the machine. If you were my apprentice, I'd sit you in the shop with the machine and have you start from the beginning, Everytime you take a machine apart, you learn something. I still do.

The bottom line is this Dave. If you can't get your machine working to your satisfaction, you can ship it to me, paying the freight both ways. I'll take it to my shop, put it in a table and set the entire machine. I will take pictures and videos as I go and make them available to this forum. I won't charge anything for my time as it will help kick off my project of providing training material. The freight both ways will likely be less than if you take it to be repaired somewhere. Just throwing the offer out there.

As for hijacking this thread, I think there are so many 111 and 211 clones out there that your trials are well worth the bandwidth and may help others.

Regards, Eric

[dmar836]

I had thought as I laid down to bed that I was likely barking up the wrong tree with all the adjusting, testing, and readjusting the same parts. I did retime the shafts back earlier in this thread - moved it a tooth or two. Prior to that I don't remember anything more adverse than what's happening now.

I need to spend the time to watch each area and understand exactly what is happening in relation to other areas. I also need to start at the beginning.

I'm about to take my private pilot check ride and have been not only distracted but unwilling to dedicate unbroken time to the machine and related projects.

Your offer is quite generous and I truly appreciate it but as with my cars, bikes, motorcycles, etc. I am all but unwilling to give up and let others do it. It's a hard head and pride thing. I'll get this figures out yet!

Dave

[TSquared]

Eric, I couldn't agree more with your assessment of Dave's situation. I have the same philosophy as you, it is a machine and as such it has the ability of performing the job it was designed for. The only thing missing in Dave and my case is experience. I also agree with Dave about the pride thing. We both have the mechanical ability but lack the experience that you have. Your knowledge and patience has been so helpful over the past few weeks that I couldn't begin to thank you enough. The old phrase of "teach a man to fish..." is certainly appropriate. I have learned a lot from the help you have given to Dave, I just haven't commented because I am sneaking my Internet time at work.

I have made a couple of small items this past week with some success. The cover for my Kawasaki zn1300 came out nice but the stitch lenght varies depending on the speed of the machine. It seems the faster speed produces a longer stitch. I am sewing two layers of Sunbrella and it seems like I don't have enough presser foot pressure to move the material. I would have thought the needle would advance the material in a uniform manner. The knob for spring pressure is turned all the way down so I am assuming I missed an adjustment somewhere.

The video you mentioned would be extremely helpful to me. Since I have no experience with this machine, I don't know the relationship between the different parts.

As to Dave's issue with broken thread, could this be caused by using the wrong size needle? While I did not break any thread, I could not get consistent sewing without getting thread wrapped around the bobben until I changed the needle size. I was using a needle about two sizes too small (I went from a 20 to a 23). The tip in this forum on how to test needle size to thread size put me on track.

Gotta go, thanks again for your help.

Tom

[dmar836]

Tom, glad to hear you are sewing! I added some shims to the pressor spring on my Juki DDL - 552 and that helped but a "relaxed" spring may not be the issue with these. Interested to hear Erics ideas on that.

Well, I feel I have the problem figured out. Did a cursory recheck of the shaft timing and all seamed okay. Did some fabric manipulation around the descended needle and could do nothing to replicate the problem or get the loop creation to fail. BUT I finally figured out why the issue occurs only when hand turning the wheel. BACKLASH. By hand turning the machine I am also unconsciously "throwing" the wheel a bit with the momentum. The hook stops first, then the balance wheel which unloads the whole thing. The play between the hook drive gears allow about 1/16" backlash which, in the middle of a stitch, allows the top thread to somehow drop further down the hook body and onto the seedy underbelly notchy parts of the hook body. I watched it happen and was able to replicate it.

I am now convinced that whether the top thread is falling too far down the hook or getting hung up while trying to pull free of the bobbin itself, it is because of a moment of backlash. It is no less detrimental than a small snag somewhere. This makes sense considering how well it sews under constant motor power. The incident has been sporatic as only constant forward pressure on the wheel will ensure things don't temporarily slacken. Even sudden stops of the motor can allow the backlash to occur so restarting causes a snag.

So, what to do? The gears themselves do not appear to have been abused and I can't see a way to adjust them to have a tighter mesh. Is there a washer, felt or otherwise, that fits on the casting just above the hook shaft bushing to somewhat dampen the hook movement? If so, mine is gone. I have to think that besides new gears, some form of felt friction washer under the hook will hinder it's easy backward motion without stressing its normal rotation. Then again, perhaps these gears are known to fail frequently and need to be replaced.

I am now fairly sure this is what has been happening so that alone is getting me closer to the answer!

Dave

[gottaknow]

A worn timing belt will create play in the hook.

Regards, Eric

[dmar836]

Took a look and I can see and feel no play at all in the belt which is quite tight - not that under load it couldn't drift if the teeth were worn. Where I can definately see and feel play is a slight amount at the clutch mechanism but most easily at the hook drive gear interface.

Looks like maybe I should drop some cash on gears and belt. Not sure if that will completely eliminate the gear play but I see no other way to adjust the lash.

Is there a way to address the clutch play? All I remember reading is "don't mess with it as it is set at the factory."

Dave

[gottaknow]

First, a word about the gears on the hook and lower shaft. Even with brand new gears on both, you'll get a little play. The gear obviously on the lower shaft is a bigger challenge to change, the one on the hook shaft is easy. However. If you have moved the gear on the lower shaft left and right to change the timing slightly, the gear would much rather be centered in relation to the hook gear. Too much either way, and you get a bind or excess slop. I very much doubt those gears are causing an issue. When I set hook timing, I push the hook counter-clockwise. That's the position where your hook timing will actually be while sewing. It doesn't matter if the hook moves 1/8" clockwise, set your timing with the play taken out in the counter-clockwise position.

As for your safety clutch. Those can be adjusted. I'll bring one home tommorow and go over the adjustment with you here. A word about the aftermarket timing belts. For the most part, they suck. I purchased 6 belts for my Singer 300W's. (a beastly chainstich machine) They were sloppier than the belts I was replacing. To determine where the most play is, clamp a pair of vise grips on the lower shaft anywhere it's clear, with the needle bar up. I use a shop towell to pad the shaft. With the machine tipped back, hold the vise grips against the bottom edge of the casting. By rocking the handwheel back and forth, this will tell you how much of your play is in the belt and the safety clutch/lower timing belt gear. With the vise grips in place, grab your hook and rotate it back and forth. This will isolate the play so you can make a wise choice if either one's excessive.

The more you become familiar with the various components, the easier it is to trouble shoot. As a note, your safety clutch shouldn't have much play if any. Pay close attention to that while holding the vise grips and rocking the handwheel.

Regards, Eric

[dmar836]

Well, cramming for my checkride has begun. I won't be available to play with it until Friday eve.

Dave

[gottaknow]

Well, cramming for my checkride has begun. I won't be available to play with it until Friday eve.

Dave

Good luck with that Dave. I'll have the video waiting for you.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

Ok, here's the video to show the adjusment of the safety clutch. It could remove a bit of play for you Dave.

Regards, Eric

[TSquared]

Eric,

Great video, well explained. Can you offer any insight to the issues in my last post regarding foot pressure and stitch lenght?

Tom

[dmar836]

Wow! Awesome video. It's exactly what I needed. This will isolate the play to the hook gears so I can really assess hook timing and that backlash. Maybe that alone will keep the top thread from slipping up or down.

I watched a 70 or so part series about rebuilding a Maytag washing machine engine and wonders how cool it would be to have an ongoing series like this about working on these machines. Tall order for sure but you are very informed with a dying skill.

Gotta love vintage engineering!

Thanks,

Dave

[gottaknow]

Thanks Dave. A project like this is forth coming. I'm working on a written synopsis.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

Eric,

Great video, well explained. Can you offer any insight to the issues in my last post regarding foot pressure and stitch lenght?

Tom

There is a relationship between stitch length, foot pressure, feed dog height. The first thing I'd check would be the height of your feed dogs. Normally, when the dogs are all the way up, the bottom of the "valleys" between the teeth should be level with the throat plate. Too low and you'll slip and mark up your material. Too high and you will create a condition called "back-feeding" Back-feeding occurs when the feed dogs rise above the throat plate while still traveling backwards. It's fairly easy to see, just by watching the motion with your needle unthreaded and no material. If this is happening, lower the feed dogs.

Very seldom do you need to run your foot pressure all the way down. If you do, you may need to adjust the presser bar clamp to provide adequate pressure with less adjustment. The easiest way to check is with a piece of paper under the foot. Loosen your pressure up all the way. If there's still a slight tension against the paper, the adjustment is good. If the foot isn't touching the paper at all, you'll need to drop the presser bar down, hold a little pressure on it and tighten it back up. Be sure to keep the alignment as the bar will rotate when the clamp's loose.

It is possible that the feed eccentric on the lower shaft is worn. At slow speed, the play doesn't allow the stitch length you have set. At higher speed, the cam will "throw" the feed mechanism farther, making a longer stitch. This is one of those things that's hard to determine without me sewing on it. Best way to proceed is to check the things above, and play with your pressure. The more you adjust things and see the results, the easier it will be to judge where your problem may be.

Regards, Eric

[dmar836]

Great stuff. Weather kept me from the check ride but got the oral exam out of the way. Tonight I'll adjust the clutch and see what paly is left in the hook.

Dave