Singer 111W155 Timing/thread Issues

[gottaknow]

Tom, check your threading with my attached pic from my manual and also on the corrections I made on your picture, if you can understand it. Oh, when you go under your take up spring, pull up on the thread. If it's correct, you'll see the spring go up and down like a shock absorber. Looks to me like the way you've threaded it, you're pulling too much thread into the stitch. From there, go straight up to the upper wide guide, then the take up lever, then back down through the upper wide guide. Then down through the smaller guide. Skip that lower smaller guide on your way up to the take up lever. I know, a bit confsuing.

Regards, Eric

Edited November 9, 2012 by gottaknow

[TSquared]

Eric,

I will change the way the thread goes past the first three holes. the rest is the same except where you have an X. I assume that you don't want me to put the thread thru that opening?

Tom

[gottaknow]

Eric,

I will change the way the thread goes past the first three holes. the rest is the same except where you have an X. I assume that you don't want me to put the thread thru that opening?

Tom

Yeah, I edited my post above to make it clearer, I hope...heh

[TSquared]

Eric,

I haven't been able to get back to my machine this week. Been busy at work and getting a lot of "honey doos" done around the house. One thing I did get accomplished is changing out the motor. I removed the tacsew motor and replaced it with a DC drive unit that has a 25 to 1 gear reduction on it. I coupled that with a Dake DC controller and a larger pulley. I now have variable speed from zero to 250rpm. With the larger pulley, I calculate max stitch per minute to be just over 300spm. Even at the lowest setting of 5spm you can't stall this motor. I can post some photos if anyone is interested. I will get back on the machine adjustments tonight. Hopefully with your continued assistance I will be up and running by the weekend.

Tom

[dmar836]

Don't stop now, guys. I'm working on my 111W155 along with you!

Mine would stitch fine, then 4 - 10 stitches later would break the top thread while going around the hook. I sync'd the two shafts - my mark was off by about 1/8". Going to adjust the hook tomorrow.

Not trying to derail the thread - just don't want it to die.

Good stuff!

Dave

[TSquared]

Dave,

What mark was off by .125? Too much honey do this and that this weekend. I love all the food on thanksgiving but just abhor the prep needed to get there. lol.

The last two issues I have is with the walking foot hitting the needle bar and the thread being loose around the take up lever. I think that once solved, I will be able to use the Tenara thread. I still need to post some photos. Never enough time in the day....

[dmar836]

Tom,

Eric mentioned the mark on the casting related to the mark on the bottom pulley. In his pics you see the metal tab(like a tongue) from the casting that hangs down just over the shaft. There is a fine arrow on that "tongue" which will make it apparent where the matching arrow should be on the inner segment of the pulley. My pulley arrow was counterclockwise about .125 from the arrow on the "tongue" with the take-up bar at it's highest point. My pulley has 4 set screws(2 inside and 2 outside the mounting boss) so I played with that to get it aligned.

Mine was sewing but was inconsistent so once I started breaking top threads I knew I needed to start over. I timed it before but not after syncing the top and bottom shafts. Eric's answers to your questions are actually clearer than the manual I have.

Dave

[TSquared]

after looking at Erics sketch labled as 211 upper threading, I got to thinking that I might be doing the threading wrong. I have the thread going in the same path, but does the thread actually go between the two round plates or over the top of them (like a pulley)? It seems that it would make some sence for the thread to go between the plates so if the knurled nut is turned clockwise it would increase tension on the thread. I don't know the correct way of threading. when I got the machine, the thread was over the top of the round plates and the nut was as tight as it could be. Any thoughts?

[dirtclod]

Yes i'm pretty sure it does. I had a problem sorta like yours and like to of never figured out how to thread it and i have several machines and have been using them for 30 years. When i threaded it like in the picture it worked fine. Bob stated on another thread that if the slot was all the way over to one side or the other it needed to be moved to the center. Mine was / is all the way over to the left and it was bear to get the thread through there. Here's that thread post number 6. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=43802&hl=

[TSquared]

Dirtclod,

thanks for the quick reply. I will change my threading tonight accordingly and let you know what happens. I have to say, it sure is nice having a great forum (and great members) to help us rookies out.

Tom

[dmar836]

Ditto. I'm about to finish timing the hook now. Tension mounting....... pun intended.

Dave

[dmar836]

So got the top and bottom shafts sync'd and the hook timed. My issue is that there was now a noticeable catch after the hook makes the loop with the top thread. Right as the loop is drawn up to create the "knot" nearest the needle, the loop is not rolling off the hook smoothly - it would make almost a light snapping sound and a jerking movement up at the controller spring forcing the spring to act twice. Weird. The ultimate result is that it isn't breaking threads any more but now the symptom is that no amount of top thread tension will create a balanced stitch - the bottom thread is straight under the fabric and every top thread loop is visible - no matter the tension settings. I did have the hook out and had to adjust the end play at the gear as it was setting too deep and was dragging underneath.

Any ideas if this is an obvious sign of something?

Sorry, Tom, I hope I am augmenting your adjustment questions rather than hijacking.

Dave

[gottaknow]

Here's a short video of the up close threading of the 211/111's and most of the clones. Don't be confused between the terms "check spring" or "take up spring". I use both terms, though the correct name is "check spring". The take up lever comes after the check spring. I'm old.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

So got the top and bottom shafts sync'd and the hook timed. My issue is that there was now a noticeable catch after the hook makes the loop with the top thread. Right as the loop is drawn up to create the "knot" nearest the needle, the loop is not rolling off the hook smoothly - it would make almost a light snapping sound and a jerking movement up at the controller spring forcing the spring to act twice. Weird. The ultimate result is that it isn't breaking threads any more but now the symptom is that no amount of top thread tension will create a balanced stitch - the bottom thread is straight under the fabric and every top thread loop is visible - no matter the tension settings. I did have the hook out and had to adjust the end play at the gear as it was setting too deep and was dragging underneath.

Any ideas if this is an obvious sign of something?

Sorry, Tom, I hope I am augmenting your adjustment questions rather than hijacking.

Dave

See my post in this thread #21. There's a pic there as well. It sounds like your latch opener is not pulling the basket far enough for your take up lever to cleanly pull up the thread between the tab on the basket and the throat plate. Post #21 describes how to do it. Put some material in, open the slide and check the functioning of the opener.

Regards, Eric

Edited November 20, 2012 by gottaknow

[dmar836]

I'll take a look. Thanks!

Dave

[dmar836]

So got it going fairly good. Did adjust the latch opener. Every once ina while it will still break a thread or develop a birdsnest but I was using kid skin and was just practicing small runs back and forth. Perhaps needle dullness etc. could contribute. Upper thread tension is much lower now as well.

As an aside, is there ever a reason to adjust the pinion gear on the hook? I switched the rounded set screw with the other so I could rotate the groove on the hook shaft(under the pinion gear) and open up a new range of adjustment. Timing might still be a tad off. Could you have the set screws NOT in the hook shaft groove at all? It is so close now the set screw pulls itself into the groove and rotates the pinion as it drops in place. Only turning it 180 would allow free adjustment. I know that would make preload adjustments of the hook difficult without upsetting timing. I have the actual adjustment gear (on the lower shaft) all the way to the left and the hook is still maybe 1/32 to 1/16" ahead.

Dave

[gottaknow]

So got it going fairly good. Did adjust the latch opener. Every once ina while it will still break a thread or develop a birdsnest but I was using kid skin and was just practicing small runs back and forth. Perhaps needle dullness etc. could contribute. Upper thread tension is much lower now as well.

As an aside, is there ever a reason to adjust the pinion gear on the hook? I switched the rounded set screw with the other so I could rotate the groove on the hook shaft(under the pinion gear) and open up a new range of adjustment. Timing might still be a tad off. Could you have the set screws NOT in the hook shaft groove at all? It is so close now the set screw pulls itself into the groove and rotates the pinion as it drops in place. Only turning it 180 would allow free adjustment. I know that would make preload adjustments of the hook difficult without upsetting timing. I have the actual adjustment gear (on the lower shaft) all the way to the left and the hook is still maybe 1/32 to 1/16" ahead.

Dave

If your hook is advanced that little, it shouldn't make much difference. I usually retard the timing on vertical hook machines as a general rule to avoid the random knots from tightly twisted thread. (we use a lot of poly core cotton wrap thread). If your timing is that close, it should sew decent. You're correct in that if you remove your set screws from the grooves, you'll lose the convienence of removing a hook quickly, and it could slip out of time easier. If your bottom timing belt gear has the quick release, that will help. If you want to keep your screw in the groove, you can remove your hook and slide the drive gear out and move it one tooth, re-engage it and replace the hook like you did. That will give you a different range of adjustment. There are plenty of machines that don't have grooves at all on the hook shaft. Brother, Consew, Mitsubishi all have vertical hook machines with no grooves. The Brother does have 3 set screws, and even at that I've had them come loose. Some aftermarket hooks for the 111's and 211's don't bother. There are some obscure and often overlooked things that will break needle thread. 1) Your hook needs to be sharp. I use a very small Arkansas stone running it down the top edge and bottom edge only towards the point of the hook. A dull hook will not enter the loop cleanly and will fray the thread. 2) Remove your throat plate and inspect the grooves where the tab of the basket sits. If the machine has been run with the latch opener not adjusted right, it will cut groove in that notch in the plate. I use 400 and 600 grit paper to keep them smooth. 3) Check your feed dogs for any sharp edges UNDERNEATH. I capped that because you never want to sand down the teeth of your feed dogs. Run a thread down through the needle hole and give it a good "floss" test in line where the thread travels from the hook. 4) Vertical hook machines don't like to chain off the thread out the back of the foot without fabric. If you need to sew off the edge a bit, make sure you keep a little pressure on your material, but best to avoid it. 5) Use a length of thread to "floss" test all your thread guides. It's amazing how sharp they can get. Nylon thread is especially bad. I've seen it over time cut right through those case hardened guides. Best of luck!

Regards, Eric

[dmar836]

Awesome stuff. Thanks for taking the time to list all of that.

I hope Tom's is coming along as we'll.

Dave

[gottaknow]

Sounds like Tom's working on Thanksgiving.

[TSquared]

All I can say is WOW!!!!! Eric, that was a first class explanation. Thanks for taking the extra time to educate some of us.

Tom

[gottaknow]

No problem guys. I've always enjoyed helping others with their machine issues. I can't imagine having a machine that I couldn't use the way I wanted to. I also have issues with those that charge to repair industrial machines that aren't qualified. I've helped a lot of upholstery shops, drape shops, tailors, etc with their machines. A lot has simply been educating them and giving them confidence to handle their problems. A lot of these folks depend on their machines to try and forge a living. I was fortunate to apprentice in a factory with almost 400 operators and was trained by two masters of their craft. One of them is still alive at near 80 and will still come by the factory to bs with me. I still learn from him and I'm in my 50's. I've always told folks the only silly question is the one you don't ask.

Regards, Eric

[dmar836]

Well, know it is appreciated and this info lives on and will undoubtedly help others in the future as these machines resurface.

For me I prefer to see these tools utilized rather than running out to buy the latest plastic covered beast made in China. Good as they may be for a modern factory, there is something about these vintage machines that, who knows, may have been used to assemble flight jackets, military clothing, sails, etc.

the mechanical workings - often visible - are ingenious and like art to me. The parts appear to wear so well that there is no reason not to keep them running.

You mentioned in that video making another with adjustment info. That would sure be a boon to know there is info out there that reinforces the sequence of adjustments as I have seen the order is as important as the adjustment.

Dave

[gottaknow]

Thanks Dave. I'm still using a lot of older machines. A few 50's, a lot of Singers from the 60's, and on up to a new Chinese Juki 2 needle that I estimate will last 5 years instead of being ageless. Factories will continue to use the old machines because they are near bullet proof and completely rebuildable.

Edited November 20, 2012 by gottaknow

[dmar836]

Eric, What are your thoughts on replacement parts for these older machines? My feed dog and throat plate are certainly worn and the underside of the plate is smooth but kinda chewed looking(as you suggested might be the case). It all works but I want to tighten it all up a bit. I fear the plentiful inexpensive parts out there are junk that either have poor tolerances and don't fit well or will wear out quickly. Are the Simanco parts unobtanium or are the cheap replacement parts okay?

Dave

[gottaknow]

You're usually ok with plates and dogs, but things like hooks I get original. Seiko hooks are good, but nothing from China. With things like plates and dogs, I inspect each part and usually do some hand polishing. The thread path has to be smooth.

Regards, Eric