Narrowing It Down... Thoughts? :)

[tostrap]

Hi again! Thanks to the fine folks here at leatherworker.net I've actually been able to amass a selection of 'workable' machines! Again the main purpose is for the machine to be able to sew veg tan leather (2-3 layer 5-7oz) (and softer leather) with a fairly 'heavy' top stitch (138, 207, 277 (would be nice, but probably not with the list I've compiled...?). The choices, from most $$$ to least $, are: Pfaff 335 (most expensive, but comes with a bunch of attachments (that I may or may not use) $1500), Pfaff 1245, Pfaff 545, Adler 767 (though 220 will be an issue, so probably not), and Adler 167 (most affordable ~$750). I could see the cylinder being the most versatile in the long run, but its kind of out of my budget right now (I'm also not sure of the value of that machine on the used market). Which would be the 'best' pick? Thanks much for the wisdom and insight!!

[Trox]

Hi, you must look at the machines subclass number. H4 is the heaviest Pfaff subclass (LN stands for leather,) original parts are very expensive, some are available aftermarket (I am talking 500 $ for a needle plate or more).

The 335 is a small bobbin machine, except for the latest 335 who also comes with a xlarge bobbin. Then you have the flatbeds machines; they should be less expensive than the cylinder arm is.

The 1245 is a very good machine, the 545 is a older Pfaff similar to the 167. Again the H4 is the Pfaff subclass you need you need, H3 can be used too.

The Adler 767 is the most expensive machine here, again you must look at what subclass it is. The right subclass of the 767 will take Tex 270 thread, it is the same rating as the others. However, it can do what the others do at much higher speed, normally it has all automatic/air pneumatic. The old ones (Adler, not Dürkopp Adler) came with Rotan or Efka needle position motors. They still sells for top dollar, a very fine machine.

In Europe the 767 will be at least twice the price as the others, three times the 545 and 167. Nevertheless, I have seen it to affordable prices in the USA.

You need a cylinder bed, however the the Pfaff 335 cannot take heavy threads (except the latest).

The 767 will be my choice before the 1245, then the 167 and the 545. If they all was in the same condition, had the right subclass number and right choice of motor/reducer (plus 100 to 200 $ for a low price servo). If you post pictures of them here we can help you find the best machine. Generally look for wear in hook, needle bar and hook clutch assembly.

Good luck.

Tor

[tostrap]

Hi Tor, Thanks again for your expertise! Given the cost of the other machines I am leaning more towards the 167 because of price. I'd go for the 767 the cost to swap for a 110 motor would be another additional cost. The other machines are about double this one. I also have to get more info on the subclass (but I don't know if the seller actually knows). I just had a chance to look at and try the 167 in person. It does havethe -373 designation!! It is has had a new/different front plate and a number of parts replaced/maintained recently, including a new needle bar. Clutch motor. $750... What do you think? Thanks again!!

[Trox]

Hi Tor, Thanks again for your expertise! Given the cost of the other machines I am leaning more towards the 167 because of price. I'd go for the 767 the cost to swap for a 110 motor would be another additional cost. The other machines are about double this one. I also have to get more info on the subclass (but I don't know if the seller actually knows). I just had a chance to look at and try the 167 in person. It does havethe -373 designation!! It is has had a new/different front plate and a number of parts replaced/maintained recently, including a new needle bar. Clutch motor. $750... What do you think? Thanks again!!

Hi, looking good this one and it is the heaviest subclass too. I think this one has a higher lift, 25 mm on knee (or foot pedal lift) and 12 mm on hand. This one also uses the 134-35 needle, a bit longer than the 134 system. Looking clean, you just have to try sewing on it. You will need to change that motor for a servo, then you will have a nice machine. I would think it should be worth the 750$ if it sews good in forward and reverse, forward and reverse in full speed without jamming.

Tor

[tostrap]

Hi Tor, Thanks for the feedback on the pics/machine! I brought some veg tan to test and tried three layers of 6-7 oz for kicks today and there was no problem. From what I can tell it seemed very smooth! It seems in reverse the back stitch is a fraction/portion of what it is going forward (e.g. going forward at 6mm, when I went to back stitch the stitch was shorter). Is this normal? Also, I tested the machine with a size #20 needle and #69 thread. This is the setup the shop uses for bags. I asked if she used a thicker thread (#207) before and she said no. I couldn't test the machine with #207 thread... is this something one should consider doing before buying a machine? it wasn't a practical/feasible request today so I could not. She had not used a thicker thread on that machine and so could not confirm.... Am I being paranoid? Or, should it be ok? She seemed quite meticulous with her equipment and was very specific with the details about the maintenance.... (I am leaning towards pulling the trigger on this one!!!) Thanks again!

[Trox]

Hi Tor, Thanks for the feedback on the pics/machine! I brought some veg tan to test and tried three layers of 6-7 oz for kicks today and there was no problem. From what I can tell it seemed very smooth! It seems in reverse the back stitch is a fraction/portion of what it is going forward (e.g. going forward at 6mm, when I went to back stitch the stitch was shorter). Is this normal? Also, I tested the machine with a size #20 needle and #69 thread. This is the setup the shop uses for bags. I asked if she used a thicker thread (#207) before and she said no. I couldn't test the machine with #207 thread... is this something one should consider doing before buying a machine? it wasn't a practical/feasible request today so I could not. She had not used a thicker thread on that machine and so could not confirm.... Am I being paranoid? Or, should it be ok? She seemed quite meticulous with her equipment and was very specific with the details about the maintenance.... (I am leaning towards pulling the trigger on this one!!!) Thanks again!

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Hi, as I said before Tex 207 is maximum thread size on these. You should not buy a machine and use it on its max all the time, this is made for Tex 69 to 138 thread. Before you use a big needle check if the distance needle to the hook tip, it can touch each other but not hit each other. If you are going to use 207 all day you should buy a heavier rating machine than this. Then you should go for a 441 clone or a Ga 5-1 type bottom feed cylinder bed. The Ga 5-1 or Ferdco mini bull type of machine cost about 1000 $ new and many is available used to the same price as the 167. It takes Tex 400 thread and sew up to 1/2 inch all day.

[tostrap]

Hi Tor, Thanks for your clarification again! I will keep looking! Much appreciated!

[Wizcrafts]

Tostrap;

You may want to look at the Cowboy CB2500 machine. It is probably within your budget and can sew with heavy thread into about 7/16 inch of veg-tan leather. Techsew also sells a similar machine. They are based on the design of the ancient Singer 45k cylinder arm machines, being bottom feeders. There is a roller foot available for the CB2500, which allows it to feed multiple layers better. You need a lot of top spring pressure to hold down 7/16 inch of hard leather. This makes it more like the Singer 45k25, which had a roller foot (I had one for a while).

[Trox]

Hi Tor, Thanks for your clarification again! I will keep looking! Much appreciated!

Contact our dealers Steve at Cobra, Bob at Cowboy, many swap in their old machines when they buy new 441 clones. They may have a used bottom feed heavy stitcher for sale or something better. Tell them about you needs and budget.

good luck

[Trox]

Thats just what I wanted to say, I used a bottom feed jump foot Adler class 5 for years before I upgraded to a 441. I hammered the seam just after sewing to take away the markings underneath the leather. And used as less foot pressure as possible, I did not have much problem with markings. Thats a similar machine to the Singer 45K and the Cowboy 2500, a better choice if you are going to sew with thick threads.