211G155 Do I Have The Wrong Machine

[gottaknow]

Eric... I can hear the "snap" now when the thread break. So does this mean the tension is too tight or too loose? and top or bottom tension? Thanks again for your time.

Mia

Normaly, if your top tension is too loose or your bottom tension too tight, you'll get loops on the bottom. However, if your latch opener isn't set to open far enough, a loop will form and not get pulled up. The hook comes around and catches the newly formed loop as well as the previous one. The snap is the previous loop being broken. On occasion, you'll see a broken stitch yet the machine continues to sew. This happens on vertical hook machines when the needle bar is too low (timing issue), the hook timing is advanced (timing issue) or the latch opener isn't set correctly. It can also happen on thicker material even though it sews fine on thinner. You can also move up a needle size after adjusting your tension. A larger needle will allow a portion of the loop to slip back up the groove in the needle. This is especially true of bonded nylon where excessively large loops are an issue. Skipped stitches can also result as a loop that's too big tends to collapse sideways and get missed by the hook. If that happens, you'll get a skipped stitch and sometimes a broken one right after it.

The one nice thing about verticle hooks is that you can put some scrap under the foot and open the cover and actually see what may be happening without standing on your head. I decribe the latch opener adjustment in that really long and often boring thread that is still fairly close at hand. Perhaps I'll give it a bump.

Regards, Eric

[miaoreo]

Normaly, if your top tension is too loose or your bottom tension too tight, you'll get loops on the bottom. However, if your latch opener isn't set to open far enough, a loop will form and not get pulled up. The hook comes around and catches the newly formed loop as well as the previous one. The snap is the previous loop being broken. On occasion, you'll see a broken stitch yet the machine continues to sew. This happens on vertical hook machines when the needle bar is too low (timing issue), the hook timing is advanced (timing issue) or the latch opener isn't set correctly. It can also happen on thicker material even though it sews fine on thinner. You can also move up a needle size after adjusting your tension. A larger needle will allow a portion of the loop to slip back up the groove in the needle. This is especially true of bonded nylon where excessively large loops are an issue. Skipped stitches can also result as a loop that's too big tends to collapse sideways and get missed by the hook. If that happens, you'll get a skipped stitch and sometimes a broken one right after it.

The one nice thing about verticle hooks is that you can put some scrap under the foot and open the cover and actually see what may be happening without standing on your head. I decribe the latch opener adjustment in that really long and often boring thread that is still fairly close at hand. Perhaps I'll give it a bump.

Regards, Eric

Ok I think what you are describing is exactly what is going on now. By sewing verrrrrryyyyyy slowly, like one stitch at a time. Basically slipping the clutch and turning the flywheel by hand. I can get it to sew the thicker material. The tiny tiny tiny screw for adjusting the bobbin thread tension I cannot turn. I took my screwdriver for my eyeglasses and tried. The slot in that screw is so shallow I can get no grip on it. The needle I am using is a Groz-Beckert 190 something, picture attached. What would be the next size... Needle sizing charts baffle me. And Yes, I know that is not the specified needle system for a 211G155 but those were too short.

[miaoreo]

Oh and in case anyone is interested. Here is what I am sewing...

Mia

[Wizcrafts]

The GB needle in the photo is a metric 120, which translates into a Singer size 19, which is about right for B92 bonded thread, or size 80 jeans thread. "System 190" is a Pfaff needle system, which I happen to use on my two walking foot machines. These needles are about 3/16 inches longer than the usual system 135x16 and 17 used in walking foot machines. Using System 190 needles allows you to raise the needle bar by 3/16" above its normal timed position. This gives the presser feet that much more room to alternate when sewing thick material. This high lift system comes in handy when you sew piping with a 1/2 inch piping foot set.

[miaoreo]

Thank you Wiz, for the explanation.

Mia.

[miaoreo]

I think I have narrowed down my thread breaking issue.. by sewing slowly with the bobbin cover off I can see the hook grab the thread, It is DRAGGING the thread across the top of the bobbin! 4 or 5 stitches of this abuse and the thread frays and breaks... not right at all... What Have I DONE?

I read a previous long post on 211G155, dont know if it is the one you were referring too Eric. But in it Wiz posted this information about timing...

"You've probably knocked the shuttle out of time.Does your machine have a push button on the bed, near the inside bobbin cover? If so, unthread the needle, then press and hold down on the button and turn the handwheel toward you until you hear and feel a distinct click. That would be the shuttle returning to the timed position, or close to it."

There is a Button on the bed, but my manual says it is to change the stich length........ Help!

[J Hayes]

The thread should go around. Watch the piont of the hook as it catches the loop, make sure its not splitting the thread, mine was out of time a bit and the hook to far away from the scarf causes the point of the hook to split the top thread. Also with yhe machine off, run your finger over the hook and thread path to make sure there are no burs abraiding the thread

Edited May 5, 2013 by J Hayes

[miaoreo]

The thread should go around. Watch the piont of the hook as it catches the loop, make sure its not splitting the thread, mine was out of time a bit and the hook to far away from the scarf causes the point of the hook to split the top thread. Also with yhe machine off, run your finger over the hook and thread path to make sure there are no burs abraiding the thread

Go around yes, but it is literally 'dragging' across the top and catching on the Latch opener contact point. I will check for burrs tho, thanks.

[J Hayes]

If that link works its a video of my 153W101. The thread is tight across the top of the bobbin. If yours is hanging up that's probably the culprit.

[miaoreo]

Perfect video! Yes.. but on mine the thread is tight, very tight and rubs hard on the latch opener.

[J Hayes]

Yeah its tight on mine too for the half then it relaxes once it gets halfway. Is your opener rough ? Maybe that's nicking the thread.

Maybe Eric will chime in again, he's a professional.

[miaoreo]

Yeah its tight on mine too for the half then it relaxes once it gets halfway. Is your opener rough ? Maybe that's nicking the thread.

Maybe Eric will chime in again, he's a professional.

Mine doesn't seem to "relax"... I am not where I can examine the machine right now. But will do so later this evening... thanks!

[gottaknow]

The latch opener adjustment is critical, as is the smoothness of the thread path. That adjustment is the last that I make after making sure the rest of the machine is timed correctly, including the setting of the hook. Here's an outline of the order I set one of these machines and checks I go through. It's also the outline in a series of videos I'm working on.

1) Time top and bottom shafts.

2) Set needle bar height.

3) Set hook timing (rotational)

4) Set hook distance to needle (left-right adjustment)

5) Adjust needle guard on hook (using mid-range needle) If I plan to use needles ranging from 110/18 thru 140/22, I use a size 125/20

6) Set feed dawg height

7) Set latch opener

8) Set stitch length

9) Adjust tension

10) Adjust feed pressure

In the process of making these adjustments, I verify the thread path integrity. There are chronic areas that develope issues. I'll be covering all of these. If it's a machine I haven't worked on before, I'll remove the hook before I set it, and inspect it, not for the novice. You can check a good portion of it while still in the machine.

You can see that adjusting the latch opener is down on the list a ways. You can set it first, but if you can't verify everything before it, your machine won't settle down. Here's a paragraph on the latch opener adjust along with picture. They are from the other thread I spoke of. Keep in mind, you may still have other issues:

After you get the hook and needle timed, you need to check your latch opener adjustment. It's the flat curve piece in the picture that contacts the bobbin basket. As your hook carries the needle thread around the hook, this latch opener pulls the little tab that fits into the throat plate open to allow the thread to slip through. You want it just enough to allow the thread to pass. If you open the gap too far, you'll bring the tab over and contact the opposite side or your throat plate. I check this setting with fabric as the machine is forming stitches.

Regards, Eric

[g3engr]

Here is a link to the service manual for your machine. I have a 211U566 which in similar to yours. http://parts.singerco.com/IPsvcManuals/221G155_211G156.pdf. Look this over carefully. I see no reason your machine won't sew the material in your picture. I sew 3/8 " hard leather from time to time with this machine using standard 135-16 needles.

Your machine came set to have 1/2" presser lift with the knee lifter. If not adjust it to spec. Ensure your needle is not bent. You should have little to no play when you wiggle the bobbin case in the hook assemble. Check by putting your finger on the bobbin latch and wiggle. If there is a lot of play it can cause some of the problems, but becomes more pronounced when shifting to reverse which your machine does not have. You should also pull on the thread with the presser feet down, but not threaded through the needle. Using low thread tension you should be able to pull the thread by hand. If the thread acts like it wants to break using say 92 thread. Stop you have a tension problem and you may need to replace your tension assembly. They are less than $30.00. Remove your bobbin case (remove three tiny screws) and inspect where the thread exits the bobbin case and ensure no burrs and that no thread is wrapped around the hook shaft, Also inspect the bobbin tension spring these seldom need adjusting unless you are running very large thread. You mention you are using a needle 3/16" longer than standard. Your machine has two engraved lines on the needle bar. When your machine has the needle in the lowest position you should see these two scribed line. They are used to set the needle bar height when using the standard 135x16,17 needle system. They will not work for the needle you are using and you will need to scribe new ones should you choose to continue to use your current needle which I see no need for in the projects in you photos. The rise from lowest position to where the timing is set is 3/32" for the 135X16 needle system. About 1/16" for the 134X35 system and I'm not sure what it is for the system you are using. One other thing to check which also can cause thread damage as you show, is the hook height. This determines the clearance between the bobbin case stop and the throat plate. The spec is .032" (0.8mm), if it is too much less the thread will bind when trying to pass between the bobbin case stop and throat plate and shread thread. You will also have your situation if the hook guard is not set to keep the needle from bending and the hook point from catching the thread. One other thing to watch out for. Your machine can handle a 135x17 needle up to number 26. Very few presser feet ,however, will allow a needle that size to pass through some won't even allow a number 23 needle to pass through let alone the thread and needle. Make certain the hole in you presser foot is large enough for the needle and thread you are using. But before doing anything change or needle.

Regards, Grant

[miaoreo]

Wow Grant... thank you... a lot to digest... I will work on your suggestions and let you know what happens..

thanks again

Mia

[g3engr]

You will be able able to get your machine running I'm sure. Probably with little cost. I am headed to Ralph's Industrial Sewing in Denver today to try and talk Joe into sponsoring a test I'm doing, which consist of modifying the bobbin case for the 211 and its clones. This has allowed me to run 346 top and 207 thead on the bottom on a 211U566. I'm told you can't do it but you can. And guess what? You can sew it without turning the hand wheel with low tension on top thread using as Quiet Sew servo set on a low 200RPM (this is the lowest torque range for a servo). All with a 135x16 needle size 24. I need to get a 25 needle so as not to frey the thread. I've seen them on Ebay but not in stores. By the way that's penetrating a piece of hard leather 1/8" thick. Think belt.

Regards again Grant

[Trox]

Big but no leather stitcher.

Some years ago I bought a triple feed Singer 144W-305 with a 30 inch arm. It was a gray color machine in good condition and I got it very cheap, I thought it may be useful on heavy leather. It is a bigger version of a 111W and the 112W. It has a one inch foot lift, XXL hook and can sew with very thick thread. I used tex 400 top and bottom on it, but it could handle more than that. This machine was made for sewing car door panels, it could easily sew upholstery leather on to wooden fiber plates.

Nevertheless, it was not very useful as a leather stitcher. For sewing heavy leather you need a machine horizontal shuttle hook and preferable triple feed. This type of shuttle can handle much more thread tension before skipping stitches or braking needles. I traded it in a Adler 105 top and bottom feed cylinder-bed. It only have a foot lift of 3/8 inch but can sew more than twice as thick leather with the same heavy thread. That`s because the Adler has a horizontal shuttle hook that can handle the extra thread tension needed to sew heavy leather with thick thread. Today I use a 441 clone to sew my heavy leather.

Tor

[miaoreo]

HELP PLEASE

1. Grant wrote... and others suggested.. to " Remove your bobbin case (remove three tiny screws) and inspect where the thread exits the bobbin case and ensure no burrs and that no thread is wrapped around the hook shaft"

These are the tiniest screw heads imaginable... My jewelers screwdrivers are too long to fit under the machine and be straight up and down to remove the screws. What kind of screwdrivers do you have/where to get them to take the bobbin case out????

2. See attached picture. This is underside of 2 layers of garment leather. Uninterrupted line of stitching except to lift and turn at the point of the diamond. Still getting LOOPS on the bottom. But intermittently, sews fine, then loops.

Oh and I changed the needle... still breaks the thread.

Edited May 10, 2013 by miaoreo

[g3engr]

That is too funny, you think that's a small screw wait till I have you tighten the bobbin case screw. I removed two last night and changed bobbin case springs even put on a head mounted magnifier. Get ready.(smile) not that bad but you do need a few tools, but very few at that. Go to ACE hardware, or a sewing machine store. Make sure you magnetize your screw driver tip also or you'll spend all you time picking up screw that can generally make their way into the oil pan. I also believe a must have tool are the small tweezers with the curved ends like doctors use when handling thread when doing internal surgery. Handy for me as I have hugh hands to match size 14 shoes. They use to have a set of screw drivers that fit inside a screw driver and on and on till the smallest required a magnifier to see and too small to handle. I'm still looking for my set but someone glum onto them. Also a very long narrow blade 12 " or longer is very helpful as it lets you get the handle out of the way for a more perpendicular angle for foot plate, throat place etc. Next buy a ream of 24 LB. printer paper for sewing and using as a feeler gage in case you don't have a set. Each sheet is .004" thick 100 sheets .400 or just under 7/16" etc.

Eric gave a very good order of operations formate that should help you as you adjust your machine,however, the first thing I would like you to do is 1) turn off machine insert on sheet of paper under pressers 2) with needle out of the machine and no thread turn flywheel while slightly tugging on the paper. It should be pull through the machine and if you tug too hard on paper to resist feed, the machine should tear it. If you are using smooth bottom presser feet you should see no teeth indentations on needle side of paper or very faint ones from feed dogs. If the paper does not feed or you can pull back on the paper your presser bar height need to be set following the manual. The timing also requires that you set the stitch length to zero. I time with the largest needle to be used which is a number 26. I seldom use a needle smaller than 21 anyway or 69 thread. Also when feeding the paper make mental note as to how high above the paper the presser and alternating presser rise. this Roze is also adjustable. 3) Put number 92 thread in your machine and set stitch length to 5spi or 6spi. Turn screw on bobbin case nearest the thread outlet all the way in, set top tension nearly all way out maybe a few turns in and with top tension knob only. Start sewing the sheet of paper. The thread is thicker than one sheet of paper but you should get good stitches. Do you?

[miaoreo]

" the first thing I would like you to do is 1) turn off machine insert on sheet of paper under pressers 2) with needle out of the machine and no thread turn flywheel while slightly tugging on the paper. It should be pull through the machine and if you tug too hard on paper to resist feed, the machine should tear it. If you are using smooth bottom presser feet you should see no teeth indentations on needle side of paper or very faint ones from feed dogs. If the paper does not feed or you can pull back on the paper your presser bar height need to be set following the manual."

Did this.... feed dogs pull paper thru, and if I tug on paper too hard it will tear. Feet and dogs have teeth. there is impression from dogs on bottom of paper. Best I can tell Rise of 'pressor feet' is about 4 or 5 mm.

Looking for a magnet right now, not messing with those tiny screws until I find one! LOL

[miaoreo]

Well I am just ready to throw this thing out the window.. If I could lift it.... Nothing works. Obviously someone changed the needle bar to use these longer needles. There are no scribe marks on it that I can see. The Thread still frays and breaks. The thread "Frays' in such a way that in one or two stitches it breaks. I took a couple of photos, with two different threads same results. This is just turning the flywheel by hand and this happens.

[J Hayes]

Have you checked the hook timing and distance the tip of the hook is from the scarf? My Singer acted in much the same way and it was the timing and clearance that were just a bit off causing the piont of the hook to pierce the top thread and it looked just like your pictures. Just a thought, I am no expert though. Parts.singerco.com hasfree manuals for your machine if you don't already have one. It goes over timing the hook.

Edited May 11, 2013 by J Hayes

[g3engr]

Here is a link to a better manual of the same machine except it is white in color.http://parts.singerco.com/IPsvcManuals/211W155.pdf The needle bar on some machines have no scribe lines but this is not a major problem.Page 8 of the above manual tells how to set the needle bar height without the marks being preseent. What I do is put the needle in the lowest position. Scribe a line with a carbide scribe (as the needle bar is hardened) right at the maciine frame. You can paint nail polish or something that will let you see the line. Without moving the needle bar mark another line 3/32" (2.4mm) below lhis line. I stack a bunch of feeler gages set to that thickness and scribe another line. Somthimes you can't see the lines on machines that have them engraved on the shaft, but you can feel them by running a finger nail up and down the shaft near the top. From looking at your pictures you don't have a tension problem because your stiches look fine except for the bird nesting which occurs randomly. Since most stitches are fine and only a few mess up, your machine is setting on the edge of an out of spec adjustment. Most likely the distance setting from hook point and needle. This is verified by the fact that the hook appears to catch your thread not in the loop but in the thread strand itself thus shredding it. I mentioned the the hook and bobin case for play. There should be very little if any. What is it on our machine? I stiil want you to remove the bobbin case before timing to check it for any defects that could cause binding of the case to hook and look for thread wrapped around the shaft which there should be for all the crashes your machine has made. You will remove the three little screws and throat plate and feet. You can rotate forward and backward of the flywheel to get the screws in a suitable position. Don't be intimidated by this process as you have the book. Print it out and when we get your machiine running we will test your machine by sewing a binding on your manual so it does not fall apart. Book binding is something that can be very handly for keeping three ring punched hole paper bound together so the sheet don't pull apart. Also you could sew a leather cover on your manual. Remember this. Fixing the machine should be easy. It's learning to use it that the journey and that's the journey I'm on.

[miaoreo]

First let me say THANK You to everyone here... I am not an idiot, this machine is just frustrating me.

Grant I did remove the bobbin case, all looks good there. No thread or rough sports and it is good and tight. (thank you for giving me the courage to attack those tiny screws)

I did find a rough spot actually above the needle on the lower edge of the thread lubricator, where the thread had cut a groove in the metal, amazing. I polished that down smooth.

I will look again, and feel, for any lines on the the needle bar, and if none go hunt up a carbide scribe.

And yes, it is a journey, Consider it a day wasted you don't learn something.

I agree the tension problem is mostly resolved and this has to be a timing/hook thing...

[Trox]

Its not a easy job to adjust a machine if it is your first time, thats why there are sewing machine mechanics. However, you are lucky its a Singer machine who is well covered with service manuals. On older German machines its often hard to find such manuals. Its important that you do all the adjustments, and in the right order to get it right. Make sure you use a new right size needle (as listed in the manual), and fresh left twisted thread. Make sure you thread your machine right, use all holes in the top thread guide (s) to get twink out of the thread.

Good luck