211G155 Do I Have The Wrong Machine

[gottaknow]

Its not a easy job to adjust a machine if it is your first time, thats why there are sewing machine mechanics. However, you are lucky its a Singer machine who is well covered with service manuals. On older German machines its often hard to find such manuals. Its important that you do all the adjustments, and in the right order to get it right. Make sure you use a new right size needle (as listed in the manual), and fresh left twisted thread. Make sure you thread your machine right, use all holes in the top thread guide (s) to get twink out of the thread.

Good luck

You are correct my friend. I have spent 33 years working on industrial machines and some days I feel like I just started. There are so many variables.

The Singer 211's are really decent machines. The verticle hooks will handle a lot of wear and tear in the bobbin races. The sealed bearing that the hook shaft rotates in rarely fails. Since the latch opener is driven off an eccentric cam, it too is pretty consistant. Where novice mechanics run into problems is really understanding that simply setting the hook point to the needle isn't enough if there's an underlying adjustment. The order of adjustments I posted earlier is a guidline I've used for years. If your belt timing is off one tooth, the machine will not run smooth. I've seen a lot of machines set wrong because folks simply look at the hook timing. There are many times the hook timing has to be advanced (higher into the scarf) or retarded (lower into the scarf). The verticle hook arrangement makes this adjustment easier to see.

As for the manual, they don't mention when sewing heavier goods that the needle normaly deflects away from the hook. This changes with speed also. I set all 211's to have the hook point actually touch the needle. Then I adjust the needle guard to push the needle away from the hook point to protect it. What you end up with is since the needle is going to deflect anyway I adjust the hook saddle and hook farther left towards the deflecting needle. When sewing heavier materials, this places the hook point tight into the scarf of the needle in the deflected position and thread breakage and skipping are eliminated. The hook point is always protected and good stitches are formed under all conditions. If you don't do this, the needle deflects and the hook point hits the thread, eventually breaking it. That's the only way these machines will work 8 hours a day with very little machine down time. This is just one example of seemingly endless issues that have to be worked through.

The photo attached describes the relationship between the needle, hook, and guard. The guard is made of spring steel and can be bent many times with a flat screwdriver being careful not to nick it. In the video I'm making, I'll take a lot of time on this setting. I've already taken some video, I hope to work on the editing in the coming week.

Regards, Eric

[Trox]

Yes Erik, what you are describes so well is very important factors to problem-free operation of the machine. Users should remember this when they expect these machine to work perfect with all thread and needle sizes. These machines should be adjusted with the needle size u use the most, the possibility of stitch errors increases for every needle size bigger or smaller than the adjusted needle size. I guess the machines in your factory only use one thread size all the time and you readjust hook needle distance if you change the thread size.

Hi Mia, lets stop there for a moment before you starts to adjust your machine. Am I missing something here, or is this a second thread you posted about your stitching errors?

I went back to your first post and you wrote this:

"Now what I really want to sew is Navajo blanket and soft garment leather... 4 layers thick, two layers of each... It barely fits under the raised walking foot. NO DICE, the thread either breaks at the needle or it skips stitches badly... So, do I have the wrong machine for the job? or am I still doing something wrong?"

You also wrote

"Take a old pair of denim jeans, double them, and the machine walks thru 4 layers of denim like butter... as long as you can keep the upper thread between the disks, it does seem to want to "jump" out."

Your machine sewed fine on the thinner stuff.

Then I see you have changed the needle system, is the machine adjusted to this needle?

What size was is adjusted to? and was the needle hook distance set to this needle?

When you read what Erik says about the hook needle distance, make sure you have not adjusted your machine to a size 120 needle and using a 180 (or equivalent in Singer sizes witch I am not familiar with).

This is important factors, you might have the machine to do what you ask of it. However, make sure its set up to properly for the job first.

Good luck

Tor

[miaoreo]

Again thank you everyone... and although I am female, I am pretty mechanically inclined. Everything everyone is saying makes sense it is just hard to take the words and visualize what you are telling me to do.

I did have a tension issue. Let me start over by saying I bought the machine used, very used. SOMEONE had worked on it previously as some parts, were missing and some parts had been replaced, It is obvious where an improper screwdriver was used and the slot in the screw head is abraded. The machine was already set up with the longer (190) needle system.

Tor, I fixed the issue of the thread jumping out of the tension disks. Yes it was a separate post.

I believe I resolved the tension issue but in my tinkering and jamming up the machine with loops of thread in the process somehow it has developed this issue of abrading and breaking the thread.

It WOULD sew denim and thinner leather, now it wont sew anything at all without breaking the thread. So somehow I have made the issue worse.

Eric, If I am reading your post correctly, you adjust the hook TOWARD the needle and bend the guard OUT also toward the needle?

[gottaknow]

Yes, I set the hook so it hits the needle, then push it clear of the hook with the guard. This accounts for the deflection of the needle. I do suspect your needle bar height is wrong as well as the hook timing. Video will be available soon!

Regards, Eric

[Trox]

Hi Mia, here is how I do it. You need three parameters:

1,

The needle height: How high the needle bar should be over the needle plate when it is in its highest position or vice versa as in this manual.

2,

Then the needle rise: when the needle bar has past its lowest position (bottom dead center) and raised with X mm (X= 2,4 mm or 3/32 " on this machine, I peeped in the manual)

3,

Then the hook timing position: the tip of the shuttle hook should be 1,6 mm (1/16 ") over the needle eye in the center of the needle.

Before you start with the timing adjustments make sure the feed dog is in the middle of the needle plate (side-wise; equal space on both sides of it), if not make the necessary adjustments.

Insert a new needle (right size needle, the one you use the most), I see the maximum needle size is Singer 22 (Nm 140), I use this for thread size TKT 20 (TEX 135)

Make sure the needle hits in the center of the feed dogs needle hole, if not make your adjustments according to the manual.

Check the feed timing; the needle and the feeding foot should hit the feed dog at the simultaneously. And in the same moment as the feed-dog is coming up from the needle plate. If not make your adjustments.

Then back to point 1:

Remove the needle plate and insert a new needle (right size as you have already done), set the stitch length to zero.

Then you must do some calculating because two things are not as they appear in the manual.

First; the different needle system, who maybe is longer than the original?

The second problem is invisible timing marks on the needle bar.

You must measure the length of the needle-bar with a caliper, wipe the needle bar dry and make some ink marks if it helps you.

If the timing needs to be adjusted:

You know where the timing marks on the needle bar should be; 50,8 mm from the lowest point of the needle-bar (that is the same as the right needle height).

Then measure the difference between the original and the new needle systems length. The new system is a bit longer, draw this difference (X mm) from 50,8 mm. and you have the right needle-bar upper mark.

(X= the length difference between the new and the original needle in mm).

50,8 minus X = is the length of the needle bar when it is in b.d.c (in its lowest position).

(Normally this should be 50,8 mm, but with a longer needle, it has to be less.

You can always put the original system back in and use 50,8 mm, however just compensate for the longer needle and push the needle bar up X mm).

Then rotate the hand-wheel until it raises 2,4 mm up from b.d.c, loosen the screws in the hook gear hub (as in the manual) and turn the hook until it is in the correct position. (Middle of the needle, 1,6 mm over the eye) Then tighten the screws.

Then you can proceed to the Hook needle distance ;

move the hook as close as possible to the needle without hitting it when it is in the above position (as described in the manual). (The hook tip is now in the needle charf)

　

Why go to all this trouble and not only adjust it by the needle bar. Two things may have happened to your machine that knocked it out of timing. Either the needle-bar has moved or the hook gear on the hook shaft has, you do not know yet. If hook gear has moved and you adjust it with the needle bar, the feed timing will be wrong. And the other way around, if the needle bar has moved and you adjust it with the hook gear you will have the same result, wrong feed timing. Wrong timing of bobbin case opener and so on. Thread and needles may brake or other kinds of errors happen.

http://parts.singerco.com/IPsvcManuals/211G155_G156.pdf

I hope this made some sence.

Good luck

Tor

Edited May 13, 2013 by Trox

[gottaknow]

Well I am just ready to throw this thing out the window.. If I could lift it.... Nothing works. Obviously someone changed the needle bar to use these longer needles. There are no scribe marks on it that I can see. The Thread still frays and breaks. The thread "Frays' in such a way that in one or two stitches it breaks. I took a couple of photos, with two different threads same results. This is just turning the flywheel by hand and this happens.

I gave Mia the option of shipping her machine head to me rather than throwing it out the window. As this thread progressed, I could tell her machine had been "tinkered" with beyond reason. I've spent about 3 hours with it in my shop at the factory and the history unfolded itself. She has given me permission to share the results here in the machine forum in hopes that we can encourage and educate. I'll be starting a new thread with numerous photos to try and explain the process. To end this thread on a positive note for Mia, I'm posting a couple results pics for her. Everyones input has been great and many things mentioned were right on the money. It's just really hard sometimes with complex issues to fix a machine.

I seem to recall a post by Wiz earlier about it's often best to leave a machine alone to do what it was designed to do. That's why many folks here have more than one machine. That was definately the case with Mia's machine. Keep in mind she got the machine in the condition it was in. Hopefully this can also help those out shopping for used machines.

Regards, Eric

[miaoreo]

And this is Mia doing a Happy Dance! I cannot thank you enough Eric!

[Wizcrafts]

Nice repair Eric!

[gottaknow]

Nice repair Eric!

I'm thinking she was serious about throwing her machine out the window!