Finishing Problems

[ShawnM76]

Hey there folks, I'm having some finishing problems with my leather and could use some tips/advice.

I've attached some photos to go along with the descriptions of some of the issues I am having. Hopefully it helps.

The first three photos are in regards to my first question. It's actually more of an issue, and that is after using the tandy antique gel I let my project dry for 24 hours, and then I apply super sheen to the project. Once I start applying the super sheen the antique starts to lift and the two mix together resulting in a lot of streaking and a milky color, and then it proceeds to dry milky and streaky. Can you please tell me why this is doing this and what I might be doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time these last few weeks destroying projects I have spent countless hours on. As well, is there any way to fix this after it has happened?

My next question is regarding the following two pictures of a belt that I had made a few weeks ago, and that I have been wearing ever since. It's only been a few weeks and the belt is already showing signs of wear. I have store bought leather belts that I have worn for a year straight and not had this kind of wear. Why would it be wearing so prematurely? Does it have something to do with the finishing? Is there anything I can do to ensure this doesn't happen again with future projects? I have friends that want leather belts who specifically said they wanted a quality leather belt that would not do this. I want to ensure I can provide them with that.

My next question is in regards to the following picture (the one with all the milky colored markings on it) again, this just happened suddenly, and I don't know why? Is there a reason these milky markings would have developed?

And lastly, the last photo of the strap with a crack in it. How can I prevent this from happening in the future when a project has to be bent? This is actually a rifle sling and in order to adjust it, it is going to have to be bent anytime there are adjustments to be made. Again, I would definitely like for this not to be happening with future projects.

Just so you have an idea, this is how I've been finishing my leather;

- allow leather to dry completely

- stain leather and allow to dry 24 hours then buff

- apply gum trag on flesh side using finger to rub into leather

- apply a coat of super sheen twice, then buff again

- burnish edges

- apply edge coat

Not sure if this is fully the appropriate way or not. I have found that even with the use of the internet and books that I have I cant seem to find the exact right information that I need. A lot of reference I have found shows you quickly what to do, but I think there are a lot of steps being left out.

Thanks for hearing me out, I hope you have time to answer these questions for me.

[Dwight]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark on the belt fraying and please don't take this personally, . . . but that just looks like cheap leather to me, . . . and possibly some ragged edges on the inside of the buckle you are using.

I use Tandy leather "most" of the time, . . . double shoulders mostly, . . . and I just do not have that problem. Fact is, . . . my belt I've had for 5 or 6 years doesn't show that much fraying.

The cracking problem I found was by using too thick a final coat of the finish. I use Resolene almost exclusively, . . . and have ony ran across that same problem a couple of times. I also do all the necessary bends in the leather while the Resolene is wet (buckle end of the belt blank for instance) and just as soon as it is dry to the touch, . . . I start breaking it in by doing some short bending. After you bend it wet, . . . you have to touch up the finish with your gun or brush, as it will leave fingerprints in the finish if you don't.

For a rifle sling, . . . I would never put any thing but resolene on it, . . . 24 hours or so after a very, very light coat of neatsfoot oil on the hair side only. And I would never put gum trag on the flesh side of anything that comes in contact with the human flesh. It is abrasive and nasty on the skin.

Others may advise differently.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Cyberthrasher]

1.) Tandy finish products are junk in my opinion. Basically your supersheen is reactivating the antique and dragging it around. Everyone I talk to who uses the gel has that problem. I'd switch to Fiebing's paste. It's what I use exclusively with Resolene and I don't have those problems at all. Now, anytime you apply anything over the top of color with a sponge or rag, it's going to lift some. But, not that bad, especially after buffing. Now, since you're applying the antique to color the leather and not hilight tooling, it's going to move around regardless. But, the paste will probably work out better. I've also seen people get the results you're going for by using dye. Also, if your finish is applied correctly (SuperSheen in this case), buffing is pointless because it's already sealed everything in, right? If it's not sealing it and you're able to buff things off, then that means either you need another thin coat or two, or the product is inferior.

2.) for your belt, Dwight said what I'm thinking - cheap leather. Either it was an inferior leather all around, or it was a bad cut. I have a quick collar I made for my dog out of some really fleshy stuff that I had sitting around. The edges started fraying like that within the first week or two. I would NEVER send a product to a customer with that leather. Hell, I shouldn't have even used it for my dog, but it's all I had the right weight and he needed it NOW.

3.) The milky look - no idea. Is it possible you got something on it that reacted with the finish? A good finish should stop anything like that from happening, but your guess is as good as mine.

4.) That cracking actually looks more like a cut. I've NEVER seen the grain side of leather crack like that. It's more like it's been split open. When I think of the grain cracking under force, it's more of a wrinkle and separation from the fibers underneath. Again, I would guess that that was a cheap piece of leather (if it actually is real leather) that should have never been used for custom work.

[ShawnM76]

Thanks Dwight and Cyberthrasher, those are some great tips. I'm definitely not offended by the comments of cheap leather. I'm buying what I think is good leather, but since I'm new to this I don't always seem to know what to look for. The leather I get at Tandy's always seems to be very dry, no matter what grade of leather I get. I'll definitely give the Fiebings products a try for sure. I definitely think the super sheen is reactivating the gel, and I don't know why. I'm definitely not going to be using it for any future products.

In regards to all the leather, all of it was cut by myself from veg tan hides I got at Tandy's, with the exception of maybe the belt, which I can't remember if it was one I cut myself or one of the pre-cut ones I got from Tandy's.

As far as the cracking goes, I always wet and shape the leather a bit first where I know it will bend. In this case because it was a sling, it's to be made adjustable with a bend going in it wherever the user wants to adjust it. I think maybe you are right in saying that I put too much finish (supersheen) on it. I do remember putting a fair amount on as I thought that was a good idea to give it more protection, but I guess I was wrong. oops.

Thanks again fellas for your tips and comments. Much appreciated.

[cjdevito]

1.) Tandy finish products are junk in my opinion.

I mostly agree with you, the exceptions being their two pro line finishes. The conditioning creme pulls up a ton of color, more than anything else I've tried, but it does give a nice finish.

Basically your supersheen is reactivating the antique and dragging it around. Everyone I talk to who uses the gel has that problem. I'd switch to Fiebing's paste. It's what I use exclusively with Resolene and I don't have those problems at all.

I usually use the gel and I don't have that problem, but I'm either using tandy's pro gloss finish or RTC over it most of the time (the fish in my avatar was done with RTC as a resist, tandy gel antique, and RTC as a top coat). I did just give Fiebing's paste a try for the first time this past weekend and liked the stuff; it's definitely more predictable in it's application than the gel is. Still, I used RTC as the top coat over the piece I antiqued with the paste and did get about the same amount of lift off that I would have expected if I were using it over the gel. Which is to say not much, but some.

Edited May 14, 2013 by cjdevito

[Cyberthrasher]

Yeah, I don't know of any product that doesn't lift some. But, this is obviously lifting a LOT of color and just smearing it around. One reason for it happening so bad in this case is that both products are water based.

[cjdevito]

Yeah, I'm sitting here trying to figure out why the original poster's experience happened and I only have one idea. OP, how heavy was the coat of supershene you applied? I've actually done what you have, used the tandy gel as an all-over color with no resist and when I've done it, it came out very even. I'm wondering if you really used a lot of the supershene in one coat, that might explain what happened on your project, both the streaking and the milky bits. I'm just guessing though. You might try using a very light initial coat of finish, let it dry, then come back with a second coat.

[ShawnM76]

Yeah, I'm sitting here trying to figure out why the original poster's experience happened and I only have one idea. OP, how heavy was the coat of supershene you applied? I've actually done what you have, used the tandy gel as an all-over color with no resist and when I've done it, it came out very even. I'm wondering if you really used a lot of the supershene in one coat, that might explain what happened on your project, both the streaking and the milky bits. I'm just guessing though. You might try using a very light initial coat of finish, let it dry, then come back with a second coat.

Ya, the super sheen was definitely lifting a ton of colour and smearing it around like crazy. I probably am using too much of it. I've never been shown how to use it, and I thought more super sheen = better results. I've been using a sponge that had been soaked with it. I didn't realize that you had to use so little. I did try using a smaller amount with the sponge last night and found I was getting the same results. I'm definitely going to order some RTC and some Feibings products. Also going to make a trip to the Tandy's class this Saturday to have someone properly show me what to do.

[ShawnM76]

Also, do you guys know if it's possible to use something to remove the finish (supersheen) off the project and do it again? I've spent 12 hours on this project and would really like to repair it if possible.

[prc77ro]

you could try some saddle soap. And just my 2cents worth, i use the Angelus dyes, Angelus Acrylic clear, and the Angelus Antique. I'm still new to the finishing part so I am waiting on feed back from the performance of some of my items, but I can say that I am pleased with my results so far. I did find out that with the acrylic clear it works better 50/50 with water and brushed on smaller projects and airbrushed on with an auto detail sprayer for larger projects. I'm still playing around with the antique, the last holster I did with it i got a similar effect as your first two photos, but as the dye is alcochol based i just used the dye thinner and it took everything of all the raised areas and the holster turned out awsome. One last thing i do before applying the clear acrylic is I apply a good layer of Lexol and really rub it in good and allow it to dry thorughly.

[ShawnM76]

Thanks prc77ro, I think I might try the saddle soap, but I'm gonna keep my ears open for a bit and see if anyone else has any suggestions. I also found this stuff from Fiebings called deglazer https://www.tandyleatherfactory.ca/en-cad/home/department/liquids-n/2105-349.aspx

I wonder if it would work?

[Northmount]

Acetone (fingernail polish remover) will dissolve many finishes. Fiebing's dye thinner removes some. Deglazer also. Toluene (contact cement thinner) is another. Look at what is recommended for thinners and try that one first. They may remove some of the dye as well. They will dry out the leather so it needs to be conditioned again.

Most water-based dyes are very sensitive to being dissolved by the stronger chemical thinners used in non-water based finishes. Even alcohol dyes can be lifted too, but not quite as easily. Hence the instructions to always buff the dye off the surface before putting anything on top of it.

Your dye started out in a dissolved form when you used it. Any solvent stronger than water is likely to lift it. Of course water can lift water based dyes too.

Tom

[ShawnM76]

Acetone (fingernail polish remover) will dissolve many finishes. Fiebing's dye thinner removes some. Deglazer also. Toluene (contact cement thinner) is another. Look at what is recommended for thinners and try that one first. They may remove some of the dye as well. They will dry out the leather so it needs to be conditioned again.

Most water-based dyes are very sensitive to being dissolved by the stronger chemical thinners used in non-water based finishes. Even alcohol dyes can be lifted too, but not quite as easily. Hence the instructions to always buff the dye off the surface before putting anything on top of it.

Your dye started out in a dissolved form when you used it. Any solvent stronger than water is likely to lift it. Of course water can lift water based dyes too.

Tom

Wow Tom, this definitely gives me some hope. Thank you so much for posting this for me. I'm going to give some of these a try for sure. I don't mind if it takes off some off the dye, and that I have to recondition the leather and restain it. I'd much rather do that then to have to do the whole project all over again.

[Half Goat]

i had the same problem with supersheen lifting my ecoflo antique gel so switched to resolene watered down 50/50 and getting the same problem, which i found out whilst using it on a project infront of the customer unfortunatly

[Cyberthrasher]

i had the same problem with supersheen lifting my ecoflo antique gel so switched to resolene watered down 50/50 and getting the same problem, which i found out whilst using it on a project infront of the customer unfortunatly

I haven't worked with the antique gel at all. I use Fiebing's paste. How long are you letting the gel sit before applying that first coat? Pretty much anything you rub over the top will lift at least some, but the longer you let it dry first the less it will pull out. I prefer to use my airbrush for that first coat after antiquing, if not for all the coats. Sometimes if I'm feeling lazy and don't want to pull out the airbrush, or can't run it because the kids are in bed, I'll just use the lightly moistened sponge and use virtually NO pressure to apply it. That really helps to keep my sponge out of the tooling while still depositing some Resolene in there to cover the antique a little bit.

[jessebeckham]

this is all good info... i too ran into these problems when i started out not too long ago... I have been trying to get away from Tandy super sheen experimenting with some other finished, but dont really have enough experience in any yet to make a big suggestion.

I can't contribute too much, but just for your sake, I would defiantly recommend taking a piece of scrap ( if you have any left from the same piece you cut from) and use the same steps to try the different methods suggested above. That way if for any reason something goes terribly wrong, it wont be on the item you have already invested so much time in... carpenters always say measure twice, cut once..... I always tell my self, practice on scrap before the main project. just my 2 cents.

Edited May 31, 2013 by jessebeckham

[LeatherHead99]

I just started out in leather craft and made a pair of suspenders for work. I thought veg tanned leather was all the same, so. I actually bought one of those belt kits they sell in a bag. I cut the belt and used it as one of my suspender straps. I used Tandy Eco-flo Professional black and the Pro clear gloss on both the straps. The other strap was bought from the Tandy store. I use the suspenders for work only, and the cheap leather strap looks like $h!t with wrinkles on the surface and cracks . The other strap still looks great. Both straps were treated with the same products and technique, just one was cheap leather.... Lesson learned... No more cheap leather sold in a bag.

[lightingale]

I have experienced the cracking at the buckle, and that's from bending dry (and cheap) leather. I fold the buckle end over when the leather is still cased. If it's dry, I spritz it with water to make the leather pliable enough to bend without cracking.

If you're going to get Tandy leather, get the European Single Bends. They're a much better quality than Tandy's standard stuff. They've even on sale right now (in Canada, at least)