pineapple question

[crow]

Hi braiders,

have a question, probably easy for you but hard enough for me.

Learned a new trick (finally)how to increase bights, not much to show off but so far i`ve just used 6 bight knot everywhere.

I`m trying to cover my awl with pineapple. It is about 3" long. But i`ve no idea how to increase lenght of knot. It increased a bit adding bights but how many bights you add anyway, it is going to bundle in the ends.

Do you guys make the basic turks head right on the item you want to cover, tighten and then just see how many bights and interwaves need to be added or is there another way?

Just took a look on Rawhides 12 plait reins (fantastic job by the way), and i don`t understand how these long nots are narrowed on one end and wider on the other.

Maybe i`ll find answer in GH books i ordered, but it takes 2 weeks to receive, can`t wait that long

any help appriciated

crow

[rawhide1]

crow

I'll try my best here! When I build a knot I build it right on whatever I'm covering. And as far as bights go I just keep adding them until it looks right or gets to tight to add another one. When doing a tapered knot you will have to add interweaves on the bigger part. Like on the reins (thanks for the complement) I used a two turn six bight knot for my foundation and then done my first interweave, and since that didn't cover I went with a second interweave and a third interweave. So here is another tricky part which I'm trying to figure out. Which is depending on your #of bights is how your interweaves will work out. I was told that a eight bight foundation would have more allowance for interweaves. I'm not to sure as how to explain the directions for doing a two or three turn or greater knot. If no one else chimes in maybe I can try to explain it. I do know that it is shown in Mrs Houghts book on rommel reins. I probably made this as clear as mud for ya. But I hope it helps a little bit.Good luck and keep after it.

Mike

[KAW]

I like to make the gaps in my foundations(turksheads) about how many passes I want to go through it with and then stop making bights and interweave it till it is tight and always do it right on the project, hope this makes sense to you. increasig the length is hard to explain without showing you so if you have books coming with pics look at them when you get them and it should be easy.

[TwoCrow]

In the post "Lacing on Tools" by Duke I put a short tutorial on how to cover tools handles. You might take a look and see if it helps. It shows pictures of the interweaves going into a long-pineapple.

Edited September 6, 2008 by TwoCrow

[Alan Bell]

Crow, the simple answer to your question is that to make a knot longer (not more bights or interweaves) you will take more wraps around the core. For instance you are use to going around the core and coming back and crossing over your standing end. Well the next level would have you go around your core twice cross over in the back and then up and cross over your standing end. What ever you do on the front you do on the back and now you have two halves to the front and two halves to the back so you cross over on the back-you cross over on the front. You go o1 (bottom half) and o1 (top half actually the previous pass) on the front and repeat this on the back, then you go u1, o1 on the bottom and you go u1,o1 on the top of the front and repeat the sequence on the back. Each pass you will increase by 1 top and bottom. By the third pass you will be making a pair of parallel passes that the fourth pass will split and this repeats for every 2 passes thereafter so you can finish with either a 4 bight, six bight, eight bight etc.. The closer your foundation gets to completely covering your core without interweaves the closer each set of parallel passes get to each other. You are covering from lets say left to right bottom to top on the front and from right to left top to bottom on the back and obviously this front will eventually meet the back in this fashion. This is the easiest way I can explain it in words with out using pictures. Hope this helps. If you can visualize what I have written it will help you not get lost no matter what you are building. Try it with the six bight knot you are use to and look at it in this way as building up in overs and unders with each pass and building from the top to bottom and left to right and front to back. If you can see all this as you progress then all the knots become easier to learn. Hope this helps some. For a longer knot you could take one more wrap and build things up from there or any number of wraps for any length of knot but it will take a longer and longer string so for a nose band of 7+" we will use the multiple string method.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Edited September 6, 2008 by Alan Bell

[entiendo]

Oh geez, I didn't get that at all Alan. I'm trying to do the same thing so I put them on hair pieces. Maybe if I read it a few times it will come to me.

[crow]

thanks Alan and the others.

Can´t say i figured it out. Atleast i got that lenght depends on number of turns.

If there was somebody who have time to take pics of making 2 turn 4 bights (adding bights later, shouldnt be difficult).

I`ve used to make knots on mandrel, but i was thinking of it earlier that i may use mandrel only for foundation and add bights on an item, so thanks for confirming my idea.

best regards

Crow

[Opagon]

In Gail's Book - The basics Revised Edition - she covers how to make the knots longer (Long pineapple). It has clear instructions and photos for visual learners along with helpful hints to keep beginners on track. It also shows how to add an interweave of contrasting color.

(Maybe I should try to get on her Sales team...lol)

Keep Braiding-

Heather

[crow]

yep , i know that there are instruction, just can`t wait until they are here and thought maybe and just maybe somebody is so kind to tie an little knot and take some pics.

No use of useing your selling skills on me :-)), already fell in that net and ordered the books. Have been peeking them in internet since last autumn and hesitated because of the price but finally ordered last week. Cant wait them to be here. And have to say, living in europe is kind of expencive, paied 40$ just for shipping, ouch. For my sake, hope that it does not turn out that there was a possibility to order them in europe for much less cost If somebody does know such a place in europe, please, dont tell me!!Dont ruin my day

crow

[entiendo]

I have that book, but I didn't see it, I better look again...

[KnotHead]

You could try out Ron Edwards book, Round Knots Advanced Leather Work volume 2. Kind of expensive book but worth it. They operate out of Australia. Google for Ram Skull Press.

[crow]

Alan,

Ive been trying this all night now but no sucess.

Did i get it right: i start as short PA but make 2 turns around mandrel instead of 1. Then i go around the top and come down making 2 turns again without going under.There will form 2crosses in the front and 1 in the back, is it correct? then going up again with 2 turns but cant figure out what is the o/u sequence there. Should i just go all the way to the top no passing under?

Ive tried different set ups but i end up with parallels which i cant get out.

thanks

crow

[rawhide1]

crow

Here are some pictures of a two turn four bight knot. I'm not very good with the camera or directions but here goes. I've used a different colored marker for each pass. And I showed a picture of the front and back for each pass.The first pass is out of natural go around twice forming to x's on the front and one on the back.

2nd pass going up. purple string wrap around again when you get to the top go o1,down turn and go u1o1u1o1u1(standing end)o1 turn up red string u1o1u1o1u1turn going over two down u1o2u1o2u1 turn o2 green string going up u1o2u1o2u1o1 turn down u1o1u1o1u1o1u1o1u1o1u1o1 turn u1 next to standing end.

[rawhide1]

last two pics. I know this isn't the best instructions but maybe their good enough to get ya by this knot. If ya need me to clear something up just holler.

Mike

[crow]

Thanks Mike for finding time to take these pics.

I almost got it but still have some confuson in some places

"2nd pass going up. purple string wrap around again when you get to the top go o1,down turn and go u1o1u1o1u1(standing end)o1" - I`m going over every lace anyway why this o1 before turn then?

I also found this thread in knot heads forum http://www.khww.net/readarticle.php?article_id=53 Isn`t it the same with 3 bights?

Then is the sequence of adding bights to 2 turn PA different then on 1 turn?

crow

[rawhide1]

crow

I confuse myself most times. I mean when you get to the top you go over the bight and then turn and go under the next bight. On the second pass when ya get to the top and make your turn and start going down this will be the first time you start going under another string. The under standing end is just a reference point and over one to finish off that pass. I'm not sure this clears it up. If ya still have trouble just holler again and we'll get it worked out. And if anybody out there can explain it better jump on in ya wont hurt my feeling any. I haven't had time to look at that knot as were off to the state fair.

Good Luck

Mike

[crow]

Mike`,

Thank you so far helping me out, i think im almost done, some last questions.

turn up red string u1o1u1o1u1turn going over two down u1o2u1o2u1 turn o2 green string going up u1o2u1o2u1o1 turn down u1o1u1o1u1o1u1o1u1o1u1o1 turn u1 n

As you see on the pic i`m on the o1 (the bold letters) with working end. Now i cant find where to go u1.

crow

[rawhide1]

crow

It looks like your on the right path. In looking at the knot I can see where you have three strings going over one towards the bottom of the knot. You should only have two strings going over one. So back your string out till you get back to the bottom. When you make your turn you want to go over two (the x) to form a nother bight. It looks like your string is on the right path but when you get to the top you should be coming under the next string up. It's just like increasing the bights in a regular pinapple. The only differnce is you have the o2,u1,o2 sequnce to make up for the extra turn.Here are a few more pic. I backed the string(green) out to start the last pass. If these dont work holler and we'll keep trying. I'm on duty tommrrow(Tue.) and wont be able to post any more pics until I get home Wed. Going over two(x) going under one and continue up o2,u1,o2,u1 wich is the next picture and then o1,u1 which is the next pic. and continue down o1,u1ect... until you reach the end.

Mike

Edited September 9, 2008 by rawhide1

[rawhide1]

crow

somehow my pictures moved around on me. The last picture should be under the first picture as it is the third step. I'm not sure which one didn't show up. The next picture just shows coming under one and the last picture shows the end of the knot. Anywhy see if these are of any help.

Mike

[crow]

Mike ,

i did it. thanks man.

Hopefully lots of other people get some help from this thread too.

crow

[rcsaddles]

Not sure if this will help but if you look at instructions on a pineapple knot of two or three passes, it may help. I think the question was how to make the pineapple cover an awl handle. I was just lookin gat the Ron Edwards book Round Knots and Braids Advanced Leatherwork Volume 2 and that may help.

I ordered Ron's book almost two years ago and I love it. Yes on the two books I got I spend about $130 but with the information I have gotten out of them and the ease of understanding the instructions it was money well spent.

I hope this helps out a little.

God Bless

Joe Boyles

Rugged Cross Saddlery

Lewistown,MT

[crow]

...i just can`t end this thread...

I increase it to 6 bight but now i`m strugling with o2 interwave.

As i understand basicly going up follow the string left, down follow the string right, am i right? Fisrt 2 turns up and down under the cross. then i just follow the left and right string. If it is going under 2 to i just follow under 2 right? top and bottom will be u3 from this point.

Now if take a look at Grants book the instructions of small PA, somehwere it starts like o2 u1 o1 u1 o1 u3 , then if my knot is longer should i go like o2 u2 o1 u1 etc. What i mean is that should i increase this formula someway for long pineapple.

For more explanation:

Grants book:

o1, u1 etc

o2 u1 o1 etc

o2 u2 o1 etc

o2 u2 o2 u2 o1 etc

and last is all the way o2 u2 etc

How should i change this formula for my purpose?

hopfully this question wasn`t more difficult to understand than answer itself

thanks in advance

[rawhide1]

crow

I'm not to sure of the ?. Going up follow the string to the left going down follow the one to the right. But if it is your first interweave just follow the standing part up with a o1,u1 sequence and when ya get to the top to make your turn go under two(x) go back down with a o1,u1 sequence but when ya come to parallel strings split them( so you will be going over two when ya split a pair of strings) It is the same way you would do your interweaves on a regular pineapple knot (1x knot). But since you went around the core more times (longer knot) you will have to split pairs sooner. So whether it is your first interweave or more you have to build parallel strings first and then split them when you come to them.

Hope this helps and makes sense

Mike

[crow]

Thanks once again Mike,

i got it this time. "split where you can" was all i needed to know.

all the best

crow

[rawhide1]

crow

your welcome I hope ya show the finished product!

Mike