Help Me To Choose A Sewing Machine

[Schpacko]

Hi guys

After a few years of hand stitching, i feel like the time is right to buy a sewing machine.

I have read several threads here, trying to figure out a few models i can "hunt" for on ebay, but thats almost impossible for a beginner like me. So i need your help.

I have only few requirements:

- What i want to sew: Usually two layers of 4-7oz veg tan. If it can handle more, that's great, of course.

- When i stitch by hand, i usually use 3 ply or 4 ply linen thread. Ideally, the machine can handle something similar.

- Spare parts should be available. Since i am in switzerland, i guess it makes sense to choose a european brand (Adler and Pfaff come to my mind).

Here is some of my latest work, maybe that helps:

http://i.imgur.com/eTCocL8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FSB94of.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IQc0daT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7bY0AQ4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/H8vBS7p.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oiIjzlC.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wX7frxZ.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/9FbesVb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/NQ2VoFy.jpg

That is all i can say so far. I would be very glad if you could name some models i can keep an eye on and maybe some i should stay away from.

If you need more info, just ask.

Thanks a lot, cheers

Schpacko

[Red Cent]

They are so neat and precise. Beautiful contrasts and the stitching is great. I wish I had enough knowledge to suggest a machine. I use a Cobra 4 for heavy stuff so my knowledge/experience is very limited. You may incur a learning curve for a while. It would be difficult to match your hand sewing with a machine.

Might want to put a price range on this post.

The members are kinda bashful and they don't post a whole lot like some other forums.

[Wizcrafts]

Your hand sewing thread is about the equivalent of #207 (3 cord) or #277 (4 cord) bonded (nylon or polyester) machine thread. Bonded Polyester is a tad softer than the same size of nylon, forming knots more easily, and is UV resistant.

The vast majority of industrial sewing machines cannot handle #277 thread at all. You need to look into an Adler 205-374, or clone, or a (Juki) 441 clone. An actual Juki 441 is not shipped equipped to sew leather; it needs a lot of modifications. The 441 clones, like Cowboy, Cobra and Techsew, as sold by our dealers, have been modified for leather work. All of our advertising dealers can ship a machine to you by ocean freighter.

As for machine sewing with linen thread, it is a crap shoot. Pre-waxed thread gums up the guides and tension disks and clogs the needle. Post-waxed (with liquid wax) 3 or 4 cord linen thread tends to break after so many stitches. Mind you, I have not tried using 5 or 6 cord Irish linen in my Cowboy CB4500, as I have none at this time. But, the 3 and 4 cord threads have problems after running through the liquid in the wax pot.

The machine you choose must have large needle capacity. You will be using needles ranging in size from metric 180 and up. I usually sew with #277 thread and it requires a #25 (200) needle. This is the standard factory needle on an Adler 205. It would be the minimum size needed to sew with 4 cord (pre or post waxed) linen.

However, thick bonded threads need a certain amount of thickness of leather to form a properly positioned lockstitch. Anything thinner than about 9-10 ounces will give the machine trouble placing the knots inside the leather. We usually use thinner thread, like #138 or #207, on thin leather, like 6 to 8 ounces.

The difference between hand sewing with two needles and machine sewing is that the hand thread forms daisy loops - over and under the leather. There are no knots between the layers. Most sewing machines form a lockstitch, with a knot formed inside the material. The top thread gets pulled around a bobbin, capturing the bobbin thread and pulling it up, forming a wrap around knot. The thickness and toughness/softness of the thread affects these knots. Black bonded thread tends to be stiffer from multiple doses of black dye, so it needs more tension and more thickness to hide the lockstitch knots.

Bottom line is, you'll always be able to use thicker linen thread when you hand sew with two needles (daisy loops), than the bonded threads required by industrial sewing machines (lock stitches). Linen (glazed or waxed) bends much easier than bonded nylon, which bends a little harder than bonded polyester. Most sewing machines don't like waxed thread, unless you are very careful and clean the guides, disks and needle after each use.

Note, there are some machines that were made to use waxed linen thread. They are horribly expensive, very heavy and usually ancient (but rebuilt). Brands that I have used are Union Lockstitch and Campbell-Randall. Also, some shoe sole stitchers can sew around the perimeter of leather goods, using waxed linen thread.

Prices

A new Adler 205 might cost you several years income. You can buy a 441 clone from the USA and have it shipped to you for half the cost, landed.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Wizcrafts

[PappyUSA]

Schpacko:

After looking at your “Beautiful” hand stitching I think it would be a sin for you to buy a machine.

Wiz:

I love reading your posts, I always learn something.

[Red Cent]

Me too, Wiz. Thank you.

[Undeadzombiehunter]

Schpacko, your stitching is beautifully done. You should be very proud.

I have learned so much from this site and find myself in the same situation. Tossing up between over-priced vintage machines, many of which can likely give many years service, particularly if liek me, you are not running the machine all day every day the way they were designed.

Then there are the mid-priced clones of questionable suitability and quality, followed by the fairly priced value added cloned specially tuned and setup, many of which are actively supporting us all on this site, followed by the holly grails, to me such as the union lockstitchers.

I am currently looking at a Singer 132k6 $1900, a 45k $1200, an Adler 105-25 $1200, aTypical 441 clone $3600, a 97-10 $4500 or a seiko clone for $3000.

So I feel your pain.

I do have a question for the experts though. It is inevitable that some projects, well some of mine, will require some hand stitching and any tips on matching the machine stitch to ones hand stitch will be helpful.

Good luck with your hunt, let us know what you end up with.

Tony

[steveh]

^{Hi, You mentioned pfaff machines in your post , the Pfaff 145 smaller bobbin, and the 545 and 1245 larger bobbins would be good choices.}

[Wizcrafts]

Tony;

You can run a stitch marking wheel over the last machine stitches, up to where the hand sewing ends. This should keep the spacing constant, depending on your stitch length used on the machine. Most overstitch wheels don't exceed 5 to the inch, but our machines can easily pass that length.

If an overstitch wheel doesn't work for you, use sharp point dividers set the your stitch spacing.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Wizcrafts

[Undeadzombiehunter]

Tony;

You can run a stitch marking wheel over the last machine stitches, up to where the hand sewing ends. This should keep the spacing constant, depending on your stitch length used on the machine. Most overstitch wheels don't exceed 5 to the inch, but our machines can easily pass that length.

If an overstitch wheel doesn't work for you, use sharp point dividers set the your stitch spacing.

Thanks Wiz, I understand and agree. As I do use my ne and only stitch marking wheel, I plan to calabrate my machine to match and document it for various material types and thicknesses, testing of course. Fortunately my projects are not commercial, so I can be unproductive.

As far as machines go, I have bid on. 45k25, if that falls through, exceeds my budget, I have an option on an Adler 105-25. So by next week I will be tryingto set one,or the other up. Fingers crossed.

You are very generous with your time and knowledge, I want you to know how much it is valued, even from peopl you might ot hear from.

Tony

[Singermania]

HI Tony, congrats on the 45K25, if you need the manual let me know I'll email it to you. I took on board your point about overpriced vintage machines, the market and import costs dictate the price, here in Oz everything is considerabley dearer than overseas. In the years I've been collecting and selling-on some machines I've never made the kind of money that attracts the taxman, the cut in point for income tax is on a far horizon somewhere in the distance. As i say its the market that dictates, a lot of people buy the old black Singers (99k sort of machine) for a couple hundred dollars and then find they don't do what they want, they are this price because of market forces, to get a 132K, 45K, 97, Pearson etc the price jumps dramatically. The big Adler up the arm 43-4 I have on Oz ebay cost 350 euros to get to my depot in England from Germany and then another $1000 Australian to get here, clear customs, pick up from wharf etc, so thats already about $1500, then you have to add the purchase price of the machine and do repairs when it arrives as usually someone along the way breaks a part of it, or spares get lost or stolen, or it turns up without the shuttle, bobbins or manual.....after that if you put it on ebay you lose another $250 and even more on Paypal. Even if it turns up in perfect order, you still have to adjust the price for those that don't.

What I find is that a vintage machine in good condition will sell for less than the new Chinese copy, I don't care what fancy he-man label it sports, I don't listen to dealer claims that theirs are high quality, its still just a Chinese copy. I' ve had a lot of them in my little museum and they are all of a similar quality. The Chinese produce roughly 3 grades of machines, first grade (poorest) is for the local and Asian market, after that we have the machines you will know under a couple dozen names, then the third is the OEM stuff... actually made to the purchasing manufacturers specs.. this is the quality gear.

If the dealers selling the clones really had the top quality item then they couldn't be sold for $2600-$3000, they'd be the same price as a new Seiko CH-8B.

Things seek out their own level, the modern Chinese machines are great in that they have copied top designs, the metal.... well thats so so, don't push your screwdriver too hard or you'll take the head right off the screws. BUT, you still get a good machine for the price, maybe even two for the price of one Seiko.

What would I like? that's easy, our own manufacturers.

[Undeadzombiehunter]

Aser my other post , I did not intend to offend, it is what it is.

I see a 10 hour colt 4500 locally for $3500. These are very good, based on owners feed back clones, 441 or 205, can never leep them straight. So I could buy that, or a new one for $4000, or a 45k98 for $3000 delivered, or a 45k25 for $1100 picked up.

I love old iron and the beauty of the engineering, but a contempory compound feed machine with digital stitch by stitch motor just walks all over the vitange stuff, generally.

I would love you big singer but at $4500 i get a new arguably better machine new with warranty and support. It might not last 100 years, but neither will I.

And I missed out on a junker hand stitcher, went for $450 ish, bugger.

Cheers All.

[wes21]

^{I have a Singer 211G I am selling for $900. Completely refurbished by Bogle Greenwell in Dallas.}