Prices On Original Work?

[lcmattson]

Hey folks, I'm fairly new to leatherworking (I know the basics of tooling, sewing, lacing and carving), but I've never sold anything, and I'm curious if there is a "system", so to speak, on how to price original pieces of work. I've been making quivers lately, but I was asked to design a pattern for a belt. The job is easy enough, but I'm not sure how much to sell the pattern for, and then I started wondering how you folks price things for sale; whether it be finished pieces, or patterns and design-work.

Thanks!

[Cyberthrasher]

There are SO MANY different methods. My best advice is to research online for comparable custom items in relation to the quality of your work. Don't look for matching content, but similar traits. One of the BIGGEST complaints I have about people selling their work is that too many of them sell really low in hopes of getting it sold, which does nothing but under value everyone else by teaching people that they can get leather for cheap.

For me, I found that a $20 p/h rate works well, but only because it always puts me right in line with the average rate for a similar product on the market. Others who work faster than I do actually do $40 - $80 p/hour - but they still come out at around the same total price.

Some people will tell you to add up your material and double that, but we're not a "manufactured" kind of crafter and that model really undermines us. This is where you find all the cheap crap on Etsy/Ebay. Remember, we put a lot of work into MODIFYING those materials, so that price model doesn't really mean anything to us. So, research, compare, and BE HONEST about the quality of your work as it stands right now in order to get a good price going. And, whatever you do, DO NOT price low just to make a sale. All that does is hurt the craft as a whole while barely paying for your supplies - Lose/Lose situation.

[lcmattson]

Excellent advice; thank you!

[JLSleather]

Keep in mind, people largely don't care HOW you got the item the way you did. You might find the occasional munkey (yeah, deliberate) wiling to pay $100 for a 'guitar strap', which is nothing more than a colored piece of leather stitched around the edges. MOST people are a little smarter than that, I think. Long speeches about how you "hand-sewed" it or "hand-painted" are meaningless if it looks and performs like a $39 off the shelfy.

So, how many hours it takes it irrelevant. Cyber doesn't like that some would "undervalue" other's work. Probably some truth to that. Sometimes I get people saying "I could do that myself", and I reply "Yes, yes you can" -- before leaving.

The reverse is also true, though. IF you already had the materials out on the bench, it would take like minutes to dye that strap, and then a few minutes to glue and line it, and then a few more minutes to stitch the edge. Not including dry time, there's a whoppin half hour to the mailbox. BUT, hand stitch it and you are no longer talking about a few minutes. BUT, the strap is not then WORTH MORE. It's still a solid color strap with stitched edges. If the leather is the same quality, and the stitching is well done, sems like these two should cost the same.

All of that to say this ... I think lots of people remember that old tv commercial ...'If you can't TELL the difference, then why PAY the difference". So perhaps the question is - what can you do that the next guy can't (or wont).

Where in MN? Just around the corner from me?

[lcmattson]

Cynical, but there are grains of truth there. I'll keep all that in mind! Thank you

Roseville, St. Paul area.

[lightningad]

for me, i try work out the material costs of the raw materials (including any taxes and delivery costs incurred) then add that to an hourly rate to make the item.

Then i compare it to whats already on the market and see how close i am (or not!) and adjust accordingly.

[Cyberthrasher]

And a Picasso is just some colored pigment spread around on a piece of canvas - nobody cares what went into making it, so there's no reason to charge such a high price for it.

[lcmattson]

for me, i try work out the material costs of the raw materials (including any taxes and delivery costs incurred) then add that to an hourly rate to make the item.

Then i compare it to whats already on the market and see how close i am (or not!) and adjust accordingly.

Also a good strategy.

And I do agree with Cyberthrasher and Lightningad on this one. When I look for leather items, I do care about how it was crafted, and I will pay more for something because you can tell when someone put thought into the item. And as an art and design student, there's more to design than just slapping 2 pieces of leather together. I don't want glue I know it could be done with stitching, and I don't want stitching that's there just for show, because, in my opinion, function takes precedence over looks. And when a craftsman can combine function and beauty flawlessly, that's when items become worthy of expense, and that's what I'll dish out the dollars for. Excellent craftsmanship takes time and skill. In the same way, excellent leather working takes time and skill. The more time you put into something, the better it will be. If it could be fabricated so easily, there wouldn't be a point to selling it for more.

[JLSleather]

Hmmm.. I'm not trying to talk anybody into anything here. Just one more cynical thought (or maybe just realistic).

I've heard people say they charge more becuase they dont have a machine and therefore "have to" hand sew. True, it WILL take longer.

But, say I'm applying for a job. It pays what it pays. The "boss' isn't going to hear how I should be paid more becuase I dont have a car, and thus have to walk to and from work, which will take me an hour a day (or 3 times that if you're in St. Paul).

Oh, yeah, and the Picasso -- no row of people lined up to make another one just like it. Thus, in demand.

[Macca]

If you make items similar to things that are readily available elsewhere then thats your price

find something to differentiate yourself & price accordingly

A race to the bottom is no fun, don't compete on price alone and don't be afraid to charge a high price for a good product.

Want to charge a premium ? You either need to offer something unique or be extremely good at social marketing (there are plenty of well known "marketing" makers out there, especially with small goods and accessories, extremely average products at premium prices)

[dkbutcher]

It looks to me like everyone in this discussion is arriving at the same place by different routes.

Dave

[keplerts]

Ok..... yesterday I made a hunting knife sheath for a customer. I had almost four hours of time in it. (yes I hand stitched it). Charged him $15 because I myself wouldn't want to spend much more on a sheath. To my suprise he gave me $25! Said it was way to nice to sell for $15 and wouldn't let me give him even $5 back. I guess I need to up my price.

Tom K.

[lightningad]

i suppose you gotta ask yourself if that was making your living...would you be happy with $30 a day? Even without seeing the sheath, i'd say four hours plus materials is worth way more than $15.

[keplerts]

I agree, the sheath was worth way more than $15. With time and materials I would think $50+. And, no, I would not be happy making $30 a day. I'm still learning the craft and find my self having to go slow and think about what I need to do next in the conctruction process. As I gain more experience I know I can cut my time down. Buying a sewing machine would help. How much should one charge for a knife sheath?? I really wish there was a definitive answer to these questions.

Tom

[Cyberthrasher]

How much should one charge for a knife sheath?? I really wish there was a definitive answer to these questions.

Tom

Depends on the sheath. A basic folded leather sheath could be between $30 and $60 depending on how it's constructed and what was done to it with tooling or coloring. I've seen others go for double or triple that because they're a lot fancier and the construction is more in depth. The other problem you run into with a sheath is that they're pretty specific to the knife going in them, so you have to think about the value of the knife as well. People aren't going to want to spend $100+ on a sheath that will only work to hold their $20 knife.

[Fullmetalsam]

I'm with Cybertrasher and Lightning Lad... hourly rate + material + fees incured (when selling online for example and taking payment through paypal and such) is my formula to price an item.

While I understand JLSleather point, I don't agree with it.

My time - regardless on what task it is spent, while working on an order - is worth something... so that's the reason why it's factored in my price. I don't see the point in working for nothing - if that's the case, then I should be doing something else. I think the point here is find something that won't take you too much time to do and you'll be able to sell at a price that works for you and the customer.

The example for the hand sewn item is a really good one actually... if it's hand sewn compared to machine sewn by people who know what they are doing... it will take less time on the machine for the same quality. I don't have a leather sewing machine - so I try to stay away from items that will require a lot of sewing (cause I know it's going to take more time, end up costing more and people just won't buy at the price I'm willing to sell at)... however, if a client is inquiring about such an item - I don't lower my price just because it could be done faster with tools I don't have.

That's how I do it, that's how long it takes me to do it, that's how much it cost.

You don't like it - go buy somewhere else... I'll spend my time working on items I know I "can make a profit on"

[Cyberthrasher]

That's how I do it, that's how long it takes me to do it, that's how much it cost.

You don't like it - go buy somewhere else... I'll spend my time working on items I know I "can make a profit on"

Yep, that's my thought. I have people lining up for my guitar straps at the price I charge for my work. The stitched strap in question was specifically ordered like that - hand sewn single color with lining. The price, well the customer was happy about the price because he KNOWS I provide quality straps and that I know what a good strap should be because I'm a lifelong player. It's not just someone slapping together two pieces of leather hoping to make a dime off of musicians. There's lots of that crap available on the rack. My prices are right in line with the going rate for quality CRAFTED products. I always tell my customers that they can go ahead and trust their $2000 + guitar to that cheap POS that's made in China for $40. When the strap fails them and the guitar breaks, they're more than welcome to get a hold of me and I'll fix the guitar, as well as get them the last strap they'll ever need.

[JLSleather]

Ohhhhh... well, that explains it. I didn't realize that there was a "ACTUAL guitar strap - I was just using a "what if" scenario. Yikes, that explains the claws out reaction.

[keableleather]

There is a lot to consider when pricing your items & unfortunately knowledge is not equal, we are different and all look on things differently! A happy medium would be nice and a set of guidelines, but I see it a lot in the younger generation, China is degrading peoples minds to the true value of the Handcrafter, especially the leather trade.

I definitely disagree with "if it looks the same, does the same thing then it should cost the same"....there are some amazing belts and bags coming out of China that sell for less than i can acquire just the material for......but i see a lot of these coming in my door because they are a persons FAVORITE & after only 6mths the stitching has gone, the leather coating is cracked, the strap broken etc etc. But they looked terrific at $30 at a market stall....I tell them I won't fix it and that to replace it with a quality hand made replica will cost them 10 times the amount they paid....now that usually ends the conversation pretty quick.....

As soon as a person looks at my work and mentions a Chinese import product comparison, my craft is closed to them, i don't want to sell to them & i won't, my time and skill is a craft and the result is something i am prepared to sell to an appreciative person, i don't try to justify my price against a cheaper option, I immediately know where their level of knowledge & appreciation "is and is not" and "what is important to them (price) and what is not (crafted quality & longevity)". The amount of leather products made from the scrapings of leather offcuts from tanneries and pulped & pressed together with adhesives and by regulation allowed to be marked "Genuine Leather" because it has a content exceeding 60% real leather is a disgrace and another reason why people's minds are being programmed to expect a leather product to be cheap.

Here is a link to Blog Post i created after a trip to a local mall where a guy was selling imported phone cases.

"Misinformed"

[JLSleather]

Yep, didn't think about that one. I suppose I assumed that we all knew the difference between full grain leather and bonded leather. Point taken.

When I said "looks the same" I perhaps should have said IS the same. All things equal, 2 pieces of leather cut from the SAME hide, tooled and / or colored the same (looks same), should cost the same - regardless of how it was sewn (IF it was done properly).

What I dont care for is all the 'hype-ing'. You know, my stuff sucks but I'm on 3 or 5 or 6 "social networking" sites going on and on about it, so you should buy it anyway. Or the one about "doing leather for 10 years" (or 20, or ...). Here's a tip.. if you've been 'doing leather' for 10 years and your stuff sucks, then you sucked for 10 years (duh). But, I'm grown. If you want to sell it, and you can, then do that.

We all know people have paid good money for crap, and it won't be the last time. The "pet rock" made MILLIONS. It ws a rock. In a box. With air holes.People bought them for YEARS. Did the fact that people spent their money make them "better"?

Personally, I don't honestly care what someone charges or why. That's what "mine" means - if you own it you can do whatever you want with it. Even if you suck. Or if you're Chinese. Or if you're not.

BUT, sometimes posts take a turn. The gal originally asked about pricing her own belt DESIGN.

Edited October 25, 2013 by JLSleather

[raysouth]

WOW !!!

This is a topic that could go on forever.

Try adding DEMOGRAPHICS, to the equation and it presents another situation.

Something that sells in a chic shop in New York for big bucks, would probably be overpriced here in Alabama.

There are many variables to take into consideration, ie; talent, market sought, location, method of making available to public, and the list goes on.

Everybody has valid points and many more could be added.

China ???? Whats to say ? I have seen some fairly nice items come out of China, but when examined closely, I cannot say that the quality is there. They are very adept at making products look good but they are "no comparison" when items produced by handcrafters are placed into the mix.

This is a very difficult area for some folks to handle but most eventually come up with something that works. Everybody's formula may be a bit different but usually works for the individual crafter when they have done a bit of research or come up with a formula that keeps them going.

God Bless.

Ray

[Cyberthrasher]

Ohhhhh... well, that explains it. I didn't realize that there was a "ACTUAL guitar strap - I was just using a "what if" scenario. Yikes, that explains the claws out reaction.

Sorry. You originally mentioned me by name in a post talking about overpriced guitar straps that seemed to exactly describe the only guitar strap on my Etsy page, which had one more view on it immediately before your post showed up. Sorry for sounding hostile if you weren't pointing it at me, but I do stand by all of my statements and beliefs. No hard feelings hopefully.

[JLSleather]

Ah, got it. Actually, I was just replying to HER post, and you had just commented so I used some of what you said. No offense intended - and no offense taken.

[Cyberthrasher]

Ah. I get confused when I multitask sometimes.

[Cyberthrasher]

This is kind of a long read, so I started only scanning about half way down. But, there are a lot of good points in here that follow my personal train of thought. This may not be of any value to someone who views their work as purely utilitarian, but for those of us who view what we do as art, there's a lot of value in it.

As an example of some points discussed (finding a baseline), whenever I make a new offering for a product, I like to make one that's just plane with single color in order to get a feel for what a basic version with no tooling would cost. From there, I'll usually make a second "prototype" that's got some super basic tooling just to get a feel for how long it might take to customize (ie...how much value will be added according to MY standards). That will usually give me a good range for pricing and estimates. The key stuff to take away here is just as I mentioned before, finding similar work based on your own criteria (skill level, overall quality and appeal, etc...) and try to use that as a ballpark figure.

http://www.artbusiness.com/pricepoints.html