Questions on Pricing

[MADMAX22]

Davy...

I like the way you think! That artwork allowance add-on is special!!

We just got done repairing a young guy's reversible, thin, duo-colored, lambskin jacket that he got in Turkey. It was a job we should have never taken in the first place. No room to sew because there was zero seam allownace and very weak leather. It had to be sewn flat and overlapping with different color threads on top and bottom. Our 110 needle with #69 thread was too big for the existing holes. The little home Singer machine couldn't sew it as the thread kept breaking.

So I had someone helping me and I asked her how much did she think we should charge for this job? She says $20. I laughed and said, how about at least $50? The object isn't to make the guy feel good. It is to make a profit and we are losing money on this job even at $50! But even I have a conscience sometimes!!

It shouldnt be sometimes it should be all the time. I tell you there are a couple of sales poeple that I let get the best of me and if this world goes to crap I have a couple of .40" slugs of metal with there name on it. Its still a large portion of whats wrong with the worlds economy.

Yes charge what its worth but dont be taking the dime just because you can get it from them. Then your no better then bank of america or who ever else you wanna compare too.

Same goes for Billy P too, just because someone else will rip them off does that mean you should too. Lets all go find the suckers and see if we can get there wallets.

This isnt meant as a personal attack, lets charge a fair price but dont be taking more then what its worth just because someone else did.

[Ian]

I've never been able to get a handle on pricing - been told many times that my prices are too low, but in the area I live, people just wouldn't pay the price that the internet 'artistes' get. A case in point is motorcycle seats by Paul Cox. There are a ton of guys who went into the seat business when they discovered what Paul was getting. However, Paul has spent many, many years building his name, travelling to shows all over the country and has been featured in dozens of magazines, TV shows, etc. And, of course his association with Indian Larry was a big starter. Never mind, I can't imagine what expenses of working out of New York City must be.

So, even though the quality of work might be similar, can the guy working on his kitchen table ask for the same money that a guy like Paul Cox, who has international recognition, get? I don't think so. Someplace there is the world's greatest guitar player who no one will ever hear, because he never got out of mom's basement, and he'll never fill a staudium at $200 a seat.

There is a company out of LA that makes wrist bands, watch straps, etc, and by their own admission - the work is rough. Yet they are the go-to guys for many rock musicians and movie companies because of their name, and they get the big bucks for stuff I could whip out with my eyes closed on a bad day. Yet I wouldn't dare price my stuff as high if I ever wanted to sell anything.

However, neither could I price my work at $10 an hour. That's what they pay the guys at Walmart who have zero investment in learning their job. I can't claim to be anything beyond a decent leather craftsman, but I couldn't even begin calculate the thousands of hours that have gone into learning his. So, $10 is way out of the question. Although, when I had a store front business, by the time I calculated my overhead, that's about what it came out to.

So, after all that, I still don't have an answer on how to price.

[rdb]

I work out of the shop I built on my property. I don't advertise, other than business cards, I don't carry liability. I don't have a business plan. I have no business loans. I could go on.....

Suffice it to say, I don't have business expenses, other than gas to get to the fairs, or the heat and electricity to run the shop. I have spent some thousands to supply the shop with small tools and equipment, leather and hardware...

I base all my work on $15 an hour plus materials. From everything I read here and elsewhere (and many of my customers), that's just a plain stupidly low price to charge.

But like Ian, when all is said and done, I'm lucky to be making $5 an hour, after figuring how much work I sell, and the cost of replacing materials....BUT, every week keeps getting better. Every week some one has heard and calls me. Someday I'ld love to not have to truck everything to the fair, but that time isn't here yet. The first week that I have 40 hours at $15, I promised myself to refigure everything. If my waiting list grows to weeks instead of days, I will double prices.

All the planning, figgering, and every other way you look at it, there's is no definitive way to map out a business and it's prices. As cheesy as it sounds, "Build it, and they will come". You either have it, or you don't. Smart people succeed and fail. Stupid people succeed and fail...Explain that to me and I'll write a business plan.

[Go2Tex]

As always, this is one of the most interesting topics and most difficult areas of the business. One of the problems with pricing is that it is not a constant. Your price is always changing. Your costs change, the market changes, your skills change, (improves, hopefully).

A good tool for pricing is right at your fingertips. The Internet is a vast marketplace research tool. I am constantly looking at what others charge for similar products. It's what I do as a buyer, so why not do it as a seller? Of course, you must use the formulas of cost of materials, plus overhead, plus labor but then you need to compare that figure with reality. Keep in mind that what someone else charges is not necessarily what they are getting. We don't know if they sold any of those belts for $15000.

What are your goals? Are you just trying to break even or are you trying to grow a business? Either way you must first cover your bottom line, then determine what the market will bear, then offer a quality product at a competitiive price, keeping in mind human nature and the old adage that if you don't value your work, nobody else will. If you charge high prices for low quality products, it will come back to haunt you. So, be honest in your personal assessment of your product, be it work or art or both. You must get out and look at what others are producing. Go to some shows, competitions. How does your work compare?

[Bree]

It's funny but the more you charge the more people respect your work.

<snip>

It all starts with standing up for yourself and asking for the price you want and need.

I snipped a couple of lines from your post. Something happened this morning that proves your points. About 3 weeks ago, a guy who works at a store that I frequent found out that I have a big leather stitcher and that I do stuff with leather. He asked me if I would be willing to make him a 6" belt tapering to 4" like weightlifters wear. He wanted to know how much it would cost. I told him that I would have to think about it and let him know. He gave me his number and info and I left.

I hadn't seen him in 3 weeks and I hadn't called. I knew that he wasn't going anywhere and he wasn't in any great hurry. I didn't want to appear as if I was in a hurry either.

I called the store this morning just before they opened to tell them to put a sale item on the side for me as I was coming in to get it. The guy asked to speak to me. He wanted to know if I could tell him the price on the belt.

I said, "You can buy this belt from the Chinese for $20 or $25. I am going to charge you at least double that. He said, "So $40?" I said, "At least $40. Maybe more." I said that, "I have some ideas that will make the belt better to support your back." He said, "Well one is made in China versus one made in the USA. The Chinese belt will probably just fall apart! Build it for me." I told him that I had ordered a 4" double tongue stainless steel roller buckle the day before.

Later I was looking at some items in the store and he wandered over and said, "Are you interested in that Oneway chuck for the lathe? I said, "Yes". He asked me to step over to a quiet part of the store.

Well folks before it was over he offered to trade me a $200 Oneway chuck he doesn't use for the belt! And he offered to throw in a $100 set of chisels to boot! I am picking up the goods tomorrow morning. I will begin working on his belt tomorrow as well.

Oh... by the way I forced him to remeasure himself after he gave me a measurement that didn't ring right in my mind and sure enough he was a couple of inches off. His American belt just started getting better than the Chinese model and he has started getting a return on his barter investment.

[celticleather]

Whenever I get to thinking about pricing my work, I always keep in the back of my mind, the words of John Ruskin, the 19th century social critic:

'There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.'

It helps me to keep a grip on reality, and prevents me from under-pricing!

[Johanna]

Bree's story also illustrates the point that David made with me this morning..."They don't pay you for what you do, they pay you for what you know." Think about the doctor, the electrician, the plumber, car mechanic, the tax preparer- do we blink when they hand us a bill? Are we glad they did the job, not us?

Johanna

[Bree]

Bree's story also illustrates the point that David made with me this morning..."They don't pay you for what you do, they pay you for what you know." Think about the doctor, the electrician, the plumber, car mechanic, the tax preparer- do we blink when they hand us a bill? Are we glad they did the job, not us?

Johanna

Now all I have to do is figure out how to make this guy a nice back support belt that seems to be worth the $300 or so of goods he is going to barter! And of course it figures that NIOSH research appears to show that these belts are basically useless for helping support the back!! They can make you feel better but they are not a panacea for back ills or a substitute for proper lifting technique and common sense when lifting.

I think that sharing the NIOSH research in an easy to digest form with some tips and a belt will be worth the $300. Helps to be computer literate!!

[Raven]

I am always being asked 'How much for that...' when I show people one of the things I make (not just leather, I like making things ). I think I have consistentlyunderpriced myself. I don't have the highest self-esteem and believing that someone will pay large amounts of money for something I've crafted is difficult. Here's the latest example...

Made this pouch for a woman I know through a local group. It's from a suede hide I picked up some time ago that's pink on the flesh side and a sort've sparkly purple on the front. It was in the seconds pile at a local leather merchants and I nabbed the last 3 hides at £5 each, good weight to it too So I made this reversable bag, pink and purple. Very simple construction, purple suede thonging throughout. Showed her the pics and she loves it.But what would you pay for it?

.

I have said £25 for it and even she said I should charge more! What's a guy to do?

[JohnBarton]

So, even though the quality of work might be similar, can the guy working on his kitchen table ask for the same money that a guy like Paul Cox, who has international recognition, get? I don't think so. Someplace there is the world's greatest guitar player who no one will ever hear, because he never got out of mom's basement, and he'll never fill a staudium at $200 a seat.

There is a company out of LA that makes wrist bands, watch straps, etc, and by their own admission - the work is rough. Yet they are the go-to guys for many rock musicians and movie companies because of their name, and they get the big bucks for stuff I could whip out with my eyes closed on a bad day. Yet I wouldn't dare price my stuff as high if I ever wanted to sell anything.

Have you tried? Does anyone here think that it makes sense to sell $1000 pool cue cases that are "made in China"?

My shop is in China. I now have five people working for me making the cases I have always wanted to make. The very first case I put up for sale was $1200.

Granted I started out with a little bit of a reputation from my previous business but that rep was for delivering mass production cases. Solid cases but still production models.

When I though about getting back into case making after a four year break I thought about what I want and what I think my time and knowledge should be worth.

My cases are not priced based on what they cost. They are priced based on what I feel they are worth. And that is based on what I feel I am worth. If no one wants to buy my work then that's fine, I will do something else as that shows that the buying public doesn't agree with my own idea of what my work is worth. That's called market reality.

But you will never know unless you try. Are you as good or better than Paul Cox or the rock star wrist band people? Maybe but unless you give yourself the opportunity to get out there and prove it by charging what you need to do that then you will never know. Customers go for what they know, they don't check out Rock Star Wristbands and then go searching on the web for comparable stuff from other people and then take a shot on those people being "better", especially if what they find is "cheaper".

It's a funny world and the price of things rarely reflects the true value, or lack of it.

Two things that are missing from this discussion are perceived value and customer satisfaction.

Perceived value is when a customer looks at your stuff and assigns a price to it in their head. When they think it's worth more than what you put on it you are ahead of the game. Customer satisfaction as relates to price is when the customer feels that they have received far more than they paid for.

The thing is that you can't really base your prices on what others charge. Because you see that it's all over the board. You can only make sure that what you charge really works for you and your business. If you can get away with making cell phone cases and getting $500 each for them then more power to you and hopefully you are doing something positive with the money. It's a sure bet that the people paying you $500 for the cell phone cases are getting whatever measure of satisfaction they hoped for.

It took me a year and a half of making cases and getting them out there and putting myself back in the spotlight to get to the point where my cases stand up as worth the money to most people who view them now. I guarantee you that if had let stereotype and stigma of "China" stop me then I'd just be a low paid designer making doing only low end mass production trinkets instead of following my dream of having the kind of shop that can make just about anything out of leather and do it with quality.

But in all things you need to be true to yourself first and if you believe that your stuff is worth it then charge accordingly. You can always adjust.

As Bree said, the world is your stage now. The audience is worldwide. The basement guitar hero can now become a real star and the kitchen table leather worker can gain a worldwide customer base at prices that make people stutter. It all starts with the belief in yourself that you are worth it and then the stuff to back it up.

[tonyc1]

John, what would your cases sell for if they were manufactured in the USA by USA craftsmen?

Tony.

[JohnBarton]

John, what would your cases sell for if they were manufactured in the USA by USA craftsmen?

Tony.

Well you all can probably answer that better I suppose since you can look at one of my cases and see the work that went into it.

The best answer I can give you I guess is to tell you what my colleagues making similar products get for their work,

A basic case from Jack Justis that compares to a similar model I make is priced at about $550 and my version of it is $350. A case I charge $1200 for that is nearly all tooled and carved is comparable to ones Jack gets around $1700 for with less tooling, but the tooling is done by Ron Ross. I am not sure but I think that the case that Rusty Melton just showed off here sold for $600 on the billiard forum. If I had done that case I would have charged at least $800 for it.

I mean there is no getting around the fact that the cost of living and thus the wages are lower here. That allows me some leeway. But still a case that I sell for $400 costs me just over $200 to build, even in China. Jack's most basic case goes for around $450 if I remember correctly and he is retired from Chris Craft and building cases out of his laundry room workshop. I'd be surprised if his cost per case is much more than mine for similarly built cases.

If I did the cases in the USA and paid American tooler's prices for them then they may or may not be more expensive depending on what my circumstances were and how much I wanted and needed to make.

As an example I once collaborated with Chas Clements where I sent him the cut leather and he tooled it and sent it back and we made a case.

My cost to make the case was $200. Chas charged $400 for his work. I sold the case for $800. Up until that point my most expensive tooled leather case was $490. If I had used my normal "business" calculation then the case would have been over $1000 and if I had added in some more for Chas' name and reputation then it would have cost even more. But my main concern on that case was to get Chas' work out to more people at a more affordable price, not really to cash in on the name and take what the market would bear.

If I asked any of you all to do something for me and you charged me $500 or a $1000 then I most likely would put that right into the case with no markup and just be happy with the profit I would get if the case had no tooling. So a case that now costs $500 from me would then be $1500 with your tooling.

As it is right now I deal with several toolers here in China and when I first talk to them I ask them what they will charge me for x-amount of tooling, using Sheridan style as a benchmark. Unless they are way over my budget I give them what they are asking for the first time with the understanding that the price is negotiable given several factors, one being giving them more work. If their work is exceptional then I often offer to pay more or just send more money when I pay.

Bobocat is going to do some work for me. Him I have told that I will send him the leather and he is to do whatever he wants to do and send me a bill. I might choke on the bill or I might not but there is no pre-arranged price. I will just see where it goes and when the case with his art is done it will be priced according to our costs and what I feel it's worth.

I guess this is a long answer to your question but it goes back to the roots of this discussion. Pricing is something that is fluid and dependent on many factors. While it's cheaper to get leather tooled here on average I can also take you to shops in China where a tiny wooden sculpture carved out of a piece of burl will set you back more than $1000, and the same story is repeated with jade, pottery, laquer paintings, calligraphic art, hand embroidery, ivory carvings and so on. And let me tell you that some of the carved leather goods here sell for good money as well. If any of you read Chinese you can look on www.taobao.com and find some really neat and well done stuff priced pretty high.

Anyway, I guess the answer is that if the cases were wholly made in the USA then they would surely be more expensive because they would cost more and I still would want to make the amount of profit on each one that I feel I am worth.

Edited February 1, 2009 by JohnBarton

[tonyc1]

Thank you very much for you honest answer, John.

Tony.

[JohnBarton]

One last thing. Don't ever pause when telling someone what you want for something. Have the prices you want clearly in your head and don't ever pause when delivering it.

When I was young I made a serious mistake more than once of judging people based on how they looked when they would ask about price. For some stupid reason I would hesitate when I felt someone looked as if they couldn't afford the case they were asking about. Conversely if the person looked "wealthy" then I would state the price timidly and fawn over them.

It didn't take long for me to find out that "you can't judge a book by it's cover" is sooooo true.

Having the price ready and being able to deliver it in the same way to anyone who asks shows competence and confidence.

[JohnBarton]

Jack Justis is THE MAN -

Right now he has no equal when it comes to getting top dollar for his work. You asked about what the case would cost if it were built all in the USA with USA labor.

Here you go, $3200 and it's yours. I was only off in my estimate by around $1500 :-)

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=129747

[Ian]

John, great explanation. It's interesting, when you think about it, if the value of an item is X, then why should that change regardless where it is made? You are somewhat between a rock and a hard place, working out of China. If you charged the same as you would for a piece made in the US, you might be accussed of gouging, but if you charged less, you might be accused of bring the price of US/European made goods down or unfair competition. Hmmmm

I can't wait to see what Bobcat comes up with - you KNOW it's going to be great.

Sometime I'd love to hear how you came to be living in China.

[JohnBarton]

John, great explanation. It's interesting, when you think about it, if the value of an item is X, then why should that change regardless where it is made? You are somewhat between a rock and a hard place, working out of China. If you charged the same as you would for a piece made in the US, you might be accussed of gouging, but if you charged less, you might be accused of bring the price of US/European made goods down or unfair competition. Hmmmm

I can't wait to see what Bobcat comes up with - you KNOW it's going to be great.

Sometime I'd love to hear how you came to be living in China.

When I got out of the military I stayed in Germany and ended up living there for ten years. That is where I started my first cue case business. Then I moved back to the USA to get married in 1999 and ended up selling the trademark (and business) in 2003. From 2003 to 2006 I worked for a former customer as sort of a consultant/guy who knows how to run a business sort of person. In 2005 my boss asked me if I would like to go to China for a while and be the person who does quality control, product design, and sourcing. I jumped at it and have been here since late 2006. While here I really got the bug again to do cases and decided that I would build a shop and see what I make of it.

So I still have a day job working for my former customer and I have my shop. One good thing about the shop is that it allows me to experiment and develop new production lines and as a result I have introduced around 30 new and improved models to the mass production lineup of cue cases. So instead of the usual crap from China I can at least be proud that my mass production cases are of pretty good quality for the money. I figure that one way or the other there are going to be cue cases on the market for $5 to $300 that come from China so I might as well offer a version that is well made.

As far as the rock and a hard place goes I see your point but I don't really see it that way for what I do. I just price the cases according to what I want to make on them. One of my partner factories also builds cue cases and their top of the line tooled/painted cue cases are on offer for $1900 and $1700 respectively. My cost to buy those cases is pretty high. And still they sell. Each one is unique in both the theme and the construction and since May last year we have sold around 11 of them.

You can see them here: http://www.jbcases.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2602

I think that most people who judge things based on the merit of the work don't much care where it comes from. They base their buying decision on what level of satisfaction they are going to get out of owning that item. Anyone with half a brain can find out or figure up the cost of materials and time needed to make just about anything, especially items like ours. It's not really about that as much as it about who can provide what the customer wants and what makes the customer feel good. In cue case making I have developed a reputation for taking on pretty much whatever anyone wants to make. That brings me a lot of business from customers who can't get that from other cue case makers. I can afford to do this because I treat my shop as a research and development center for cue cases. Other case makers don't have the luxury to offset the development of new patterns and methods with revenue from mass production projects. So this gives me a relatively unique service to offer to cue case customers that transcends the China stigma.

I can tell you this though, my goal is always to deliver more value and a case that people wouldn't have minded paying more for. Not to lowball anyone but instead just to provide more case for the money. So with that in mind my price will always reflect what I want to earn based on what I think I am worth but it will never be artificially higher just because I can get it. I just can't do it. If I buy a piece of ostrich for example and it costs me $200 then I don't put a markup on top of that just because it's an "exotic" skin. If I did the same case in Ostrich print for $475 then the one in real Ostrich would cost $675. I hope that kind of puts it into perspective how I approach pricing on my own goods. The end result of this is that often my cases end up being less expensive than comparable items from my competitors. This is not done deliberately to undercut them but is instead purely based on the fact that I am totally content with the profit I have on the cases as it's just what I need to grow and it's win/win for me and my customers.

But, having said that I am not above playing hardball in the production/semi-production arena as well. One of my competitors literally has ripped me off for millions through design theft over the past 12 years or so. So this year I brought out a new line of cases that competes with their "new" line and it offers far more value for about a 20% lower price. I am taking less profit on these cases simply to vanquish their line as that brings me a small measure of satisfaction. They could crush me if the want to though and offer their version below cost since they sell mainly low end cases for the bulk of their revenue. So far it hasn't come to that and I only build the cases to order anyway so each one is paid for before I build it.

Well I sure write a lot for someone who has a lot on his plate. Sorry for the long winded responses.

[Big Papa Leather]

Fantastic discussion! I have thoroughly enjoyed it and it gave me much insight to pricing.

I still feel that I may wrestle with the concept of what an item is worth and what people will pay.

For instance, I have a hard time justifying the price of items I purchase. I would love to have a really bad ass

messenger type bag. I have plans to build one, but man I would love to have a Maverick case... or a wallet from Kevin King.

I am not saying that these items are not worth the price tag, they are probably worth even more than they charge, it is that I

have a hard time justifying the expenditure of the $$$. In the example of the Maverick case, I can get by with using the free back pack my wife got on "Nurses Day" from the hospital she used to work at, or I have made me a wallet and it does it's job quite well, but some of Kevins designs or Justwakinup's stuff those are the bomb, they truely blow my wallet away. But again it is not a factor of is it worth it, it is more of a "I wouldn't pay that..." and that is not a response reflected in the item's value.

For me it is more of a concept like this, yes the free backpack is not the same as a nice handmade leather bag, but it works. Can I use the money that I did not spend on something beneficial to the family. I guess I look at it as spoiling myself. That is probably the wrong approach business wise, but it is the concept I wrestle with.

For as long as I can remember, I have wanted a BIG PLUSH leather recliner. One of my lasting memories is my dad's chair. That was Dad's chair. You didn't dare jump in it, horse play was not accepted unless, he instigated it. It was like you almost had to have an invitation to sit in it. I had many discussions with him as he sat in that chair, he blistered my butt over the arm of that chair when I'd screwed up. In a way it was kind of like his throne. I have always wanted a chair. However, even though I could/can afford it, I have always talked myself out of buying a chair like it. I just can't do it. Why? I don't know. It drives my wife INSANE. I just can't see spending the $$$.

So there is a peek into my psyche.

Allen

[Windy]

Jack Justis is THE MAN -

Right now he has no equal when it comes to getting top dollar for his work. You asked about what the case would cost if it were built all in the USA with USA labor.

Here you go, $3200 and it's yours. I was only off in my estimate by around $1500 :-)

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=129747

John,

I could not agree more with your statements on Jack being the man. I was at the Derby City Classic a couple of weeks back. I met Jack at his booth and his cases are something else. Very

nice work. I personally think all floral carving is ugly as home made sin. However the workmanship was very very nice. Of course this is just my most humble opinion.

WINDY............In awe of Jack's cases.

P.S. Jack is also a very nice person and a member of this forum.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Windy

[JohnBarton]

John,

I could not agree more with your statements on Jack being the man. I was at the Derby City Classic a couple of weeks back. I met Jack at his booth and his cases are something else. Very

nice work. I personally think all floral carving is ugly as home made sin. However the workmanship was very very nice. Of course this is just my most humble opinion.

WINDY............In awe of Jack's cases.

P.S. Jack is also a very nice person and a member of this forum.

I wish Jack would put up the latest Justis/Ron Ross collaboration that was shown on AZ Billiards. It's just sick with Ron Ross'es work on it and of course Jack never ever makes a mistake in the construction.

You probably saw it there. I can't imagine what that case went for.

John

[Daggrim]

Okay, I'm going to try something nutty. I'm going to post a link to my website, and I'd like some opinions on my pricing for the helmets. There are many resources available for figuring out pricing, and I'd like to consider this as one of them. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so this is the straightest way I can think of to cut thru some of the fog of my hemming, and puzzling, and counting on my fingers, trying to guess a fair price. Anybody open to giving it a try?

Daggrim

http://leatherhelms.com

[Windy]

Okay, I'm going to try something nutty. I'm going to post a link to my website, and I'd like some opinions on my pricing for the helmets. There are many resources available for figuring out pricing, and I'd like to consider this as one of them. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so this is the straightest way I can think of to cut thru some of the fog of my hemming, and puzzling, and counting on my fingers, trying to guess a fair price. Anybody open to giving it a try?

Daggrim

http://leatherhelms.com

Well how do you say this in a nice way. Since you have not adorned them

with any creative carving or heavily tooled them ,they seemed to be priced

right. I think you would have a hard time selling them at a higher price with

them not being any fancier than they are. From a simpletons stand point they

look rather easy to make. Frankly I am surprised more people do not make

their own.If you want to charge more I make the inside a little nicer. You only

had one inside view that I saw and it was unfinished and the seams were not

symmetrical. Of course you know your customers better than I know them. If

I was curious as to how much one would pay for an item like this, I would make

a couple just a wee bit fancier with a higher price tag. There always seems to

be one person who wants the most expensive of everything so that they can

brag about how much they paid for said item. I figure that the vikings did not

ordain their helmets very much. I will bet that at least one somewhere in time

has done some fancy work to one. There is always one creative guy in the

field who will go the extra step either out of boredom or just cause he has

the talent to do so. Once again this is just my most humble opinion.

WINDY.............Wondering why he has never made a helmet.

[Daggrim]

Windy, thanks for taking the time. The hardest thing for me to obtain is a perspective on my own things, so I appreciate an evaluation from someone who knows about leather. Also, good point about the interior picture. I've improved much since then, and I'll update my picture this weekend.

Daggrim

[Bree]

If you want to test your prices, double them and see if sales fall or increase. You can always say that a mistake was made and return the prices to the original level. The message is charge whatever the market will bear. Don't be afraid to charge what may seem to be ridiculously high prices. It's not like someone can go down to the corner and pick up a Samurai helmet crafted in leather!

[Go2Tex]

Nice website, by the way. Your prices seem a bit low for the amount of work you must be putting into your work. But, this may not be the time to increase prices, when the only retailer in the country making money is Walmart. But, I don't know anything about your market.