Covering the horn- the traditional way

[tnestes]

Many saddles today have horn caps with the stitching all the way around the horn, and finished with a mule-hide wrap. When you really think about it, especially after covering a horn the traditional way with wings AND NO FINISHED HORN WRAP, this new method is something of a cop-out. Please don't take me wrong, I do this method, too. Anyway, I'm going to be covering a duckbill type horn (lots of underbelly), 4" non-finished cap, with about a 3" diameter neck,and at a 28 degree pitch. Could somebody send me a sketch of how to shape the wings on the initial pattern? Also, I use a latigo choke strap to tighten up and finish the wings on the final procedure. However, this burnishes the wings to the point that they do not want to take any dye or antique. What can be done about this? THANKS to any of you pros who might render some advise!

Ted N. Estes

tnestes@yahoo.com

[jwwright]

Ted, I cover wood post horns with the cap sewn all the way around (some call it donut style). The way that I and many other makers of using saddles do this, the neck is covered with leather as well, but not with wings. I cover the horn After the swell cover is put on. Makes for a much easier job to recover the horn later if/when needed.

I sure don't view this as a cop out..............in order to do it where it looks smooth, it takes more time and skill, in my opinion than does the standard horn cover with wings.

As for the wing pattern for the horn cover you asked about..........you might post a photo of the horn you are going to cover, and you might get some suggestions for a pattern.

On the latigo choke strap use.........it sounds as though maybe both the wings of the horn cover and/or your choke strap are not wet enough. It works better for me if both are pretty darn wet.

JW

Edited September 26, 2008 by jwwright

[tnestes]

Ted, I cover wood post horns with the cap sewn all the way around (some call it donut style). The way that I and many other makers of using saddles do this, the neck is covered with leather as well, but not with wings. I cover the horn After the swell cover is put on. Makes for a much easier job to recover the horn later if/when needed.

I sure don't view this as a cop out..............in order to do it where it looks smooth, it takes more time and skill, in my opinion than does the standard horn cover with wings.

As for the wing pattern for the horn cover you asked about..........you might post a photo of the horn you are going to cover, and you might get some suggestions for a pattern.

On the latigo choke strap use.........it sounds as though maybe both the wings of the horn cover and/or your choke strap are not wet enough. It works better for me if both are pretty darn wet.

JW

JW,

Let me go in reverse here. When I use the choke strap, both the wings and the strap are soaking wet, I mean really cased. I still get that darned burnished effect afterwards that inhibits dying and/or antiquing. The photo of the type horn I'm refering to can be seen under "saddle makers gallery- full-floral carved saddle on Rick Reed tree." It's already finished, of course, and I used the full-stitched method, which you obviously prefer. I have to disagree with you on which method takes the most skill, though, in a very friendly way. However I fully agree on which method is easier to replace! That saddle I'm refering to is a wood post, but I had Rick to do it in a round, duckbill shape, and Rick would not do it in less than a three in neck diameter, (for strength reasons). So, I'm still hoping somebody can scan me a rough sketch of the wing shape, maybe??????

THANKS FOR THE TIME JW!

Ted

[jwwright]

Ted, I covered a horn similar to that last Spring with the wing method. I think I saved the rough pattern. I will see if I can find it today a post photo of it.

No problem on the disagreement, that's what makes the world go round. I personally have learned a great deal from this forum over the past year or so. JW

[steve mason]

Many saddles today have horn caps with the stitching all the way around the horn, and finished with a mule-hide wrap. When you really think about it, especially after covering a horn the traditional way with wings AND NO FINISHED HORN WRAP, this new method is something of a cop-out. Please don't take me wrong, I do this method, too. Anyway, I'm going to be covering a duckbill type horn (lots of underbelly), 4" non-finished cap, with about a 3" diameter neck,and at a 28 degree pitch. Could somebody send me a sketch of how to shape the wings on the initial pattern? Also, I use a latigo choke strap to tighten up and finish the wings on the final procedure. However, this burnishes the wings to the point that they do not want to take any dye or antique. What can be done about this? THANKS to any of you pros who might render some advise!

Ted N. Estes

tnestes@yahoo.com

Ted here is a very quick sketch of a wing style horn wrap, you will have to adjust the pattern to fit the type of horn you are covering.

In regards to the "cop out" cap and wrap style horn cover. They are in now way a cop out, in my opinion they are very well suited to a wood post horn, if your horn is covered after the swell you do not have to cut such a large hole or split the back of the swell to fit the swell over the horn. Using a cap & wrap style horn cover will not distort the hard work my treemaker has done to put a correct shape to the horn neck, which should be designed to have your dallys run down the horn, when the wing wrap style is installed on a wood post horn it can add to much leather in the wrong place on the neck which can affect the way your dallys run. This is not always the case but it is something to consider when covering the horn. Also the horn cover is something that can take a lot of abuse, therefore it is something that may need to be replaced in the future, the cap & wrap styles make a much better repair job. And one of the main reasons behind a wood post horn is roping, so your dallys can slide on a horn with a large circumference with a mulehide type wrap, then your mulehide wrap will cover up all the hard work you did on a wing wrap. So for many reasons I feel the cap & wrap is the way to go on wood post horns, metal horns are the place for wing wraps.

I don't believe that anyone should do a cap & wrap with out a mulehide style horn wrap as they do not look as finished, but then whats the point of building on a wood post horn without putting a mulehide wrap on it anyways.

On a side note, just a little suggestion in how to ask a question, there are many polite ways of asking for help, maybe starting off a question by saying that something that many of us do is "copping out" when we are actually doing something that just plain makes sense, might not be the best way to ask for help, it comes off as abrasive, I am sure that was not your intent but that is how it reads on my end.

hope the info helps.

Steve

[tnestes]

Ted here is a very quick sketch of a wing style horn wrap, you will have to adjust the pattern to fit the type of horn you are covering.

In regards to the "cop out" cap and wrap style horn cover. They are in now way a cop out, in my opinion they are very well suited to a wood post horn, if your horn is covered after the swell you do not have to cut such a large hole or split the back of the swell to fit the swell over the horn. Using a cap & wrap style horn cover will not distort the hard work my treemaker has done to put a correct shape to the horn neck, which should be designed to have your dallys run down the horn, when the wing wrap style is installed on a wood post horn it can add to much leather in the wrong place on the neck which can affect the way your dallys run. This is not always the case but it is something to consider when covering the horn. Also the horn cover is something that can take a lot of abuse, therefore it is something that may need to be replaced in the future, the cap & wrap styles make a much better repair job. And one of the main reasons behind a wood post horn is roping, so your dallys can slide on a horn with a large circumference with a mulehide type wrap, then your mulehide wrap will cover up all the hard work you did on a wing wrap. So for many reasons I feel the cap & wrap is the way to go on wood post horns, metal horns are the place for wing wraps.

I don't believe that anyone should do a cap & wrap with out a mulehide style horn wrap as they do not look as finished, but then whats the point of building on a wood post horn without putting a mulehide wrap on it anyways.

On a side note, just a little suggestion in how to ask a question, there are many polite ways of asking for help, maybe starting off a question by saying that something that many of us do is "copping out" when we are actually doing something that just plain makes sense, might not be the best way to ask for help, it comes off as abrasive, I am sure that was not your intent but that is how it reads on my end.

hope the info helps.

Steve

I said (quote) "please don't take me wrong." I'm not sure how much nicer I can be. I also said I do it as well. My sincerest apologies for appearing "abrasive." THAT WAS NOT MY INTENT AT ALL. The only thing I'm trying to do is get some help and ideas. I certainly appreciate your sketch, too.

Edited September 26, 2008 by tnestes

[tnestes]

Many saddles today have horn caps with the stitching all the way around the horn, and finished with a mule-hide wrap. When you really think about it, especially after covering a horn the traditional way with wings AND NO FINISHED HORN WRAP, this new method is something of a cop-out. Please don't take me wrong, I do this method, too. Anyway, I'm going to be covering a duckbill type horn (lots of underbelly), 4" non-finished cap, with about a 3" diameter neck,and at a 28 degree pitch. Could somebody send me a sketch of how to shape the wings on the initial pattern? Also, I use a latigo choke strap to tighten up and finish the wings on the final procedure. However, this burnishes the wings to the point that they do not want to take any dye or antique. What can be done about this? THANKS to any of you pros who might render some advise!

Ted N. Estes

tnestes@yahoo.com

Allow me to explain myself here, please. I did not mean to offend ANYBODY about the full stitch method for covering wood post horns. I got to thinking about this after reading an article by Dick Sherer where he stated something to the effect that he'd feel a little cheated if he removed the mullhide wraps from many 4K saddles today and saw some of the tree. THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF MY TOPIC ANYWAY. THE POINT IS TIPS FOR COVERING HORNS THE TRADITIONAL WAY. THANKS.

[RyanCope]

I cover post horns one way, and metal dally horns another. Post horns are sewn all the way around, and dally horns are not. Both types of horn covers are under the fork cover. At least that is the way I do it. I don't see that as a cop out. It seems to me that is quite a traditional method. However there are always exceptions to the rule.

Ryan

[jwwright]

Ted..........you quoted here...

"I got to thinking about this after reading an article by Dick Sherer where he stated something to the effect that he'd feel a little cheated if he removed the mullhide wraps from many 4K saddles today and saw some of the tree."

Ted..........this is the part that I don't think was understood correctly. The method by which I, and many others cover a wood post horn after the swell cover is on, and by sewing all around............does not leave any of the horn or tree uncovered. Perhaps you have not seen that method. I personally, am now starting to cover steel horns in the same manner, except those for show or arena cutting saddles.

Steve gave a good rough pattern, so I won't bother posting mine that I mentioned previously.

It's all about personal preferences,and what works best for the customer,and the intended use of the saddle.

JW

[Timbo]

Could somebody posts some pics of these types of horns that are being covered?? I'm new to saddle making and apparently don't understand how to do a horn without wrapping the wings around it. Where is the seam on a sewn horn??

Tim

[Gary Winckler]

Could somebody posts some pics of these types of horns that are being covered?? I'm new to saddle making and apparently don't understand how to do a horn without wrapping the wings around it. Where is the seam on a sewn horn??

Tim

Tim...here is a pic of a post horn ( wrap and cap) after being sewn and before it has been trimmed up.

[steve mason]

Allow me to explain myself here, please. I did not mean to offend ANYBODY about the full stitch method for covering wood post horns. I got to thinking about this after reading an article by Dick Sherer where he stated something to the effect that he'd feel a little cheated if he removed the mullhide wraps from many 4K saddles today and saw some of the tree. THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF MY TOPIC ANYWAY. THE POINT IS TIPS FOR COVERING HORNS THE TRADITIONAL WAY. THANKS.

you keep yelling at me in capital bold letters, I take this as abrasive.

[Timbo]

Tim...here is a pic of a post horn ( wrap and cap) after being sewn and before it has been trimmed up.

Thanks Gary!! That is what I was wanting to see. I have never seen one at this stage before, only the finished product that is wrapped in mulehide.

How much of the 2 seems running to the swell gets trimmed off?? and is it possible to do this type of horn cover without the mulehide wrap or is it just the accepted practice that it gets mulehided??

..................and everybody turn the caps off and resume handing out useful knowledge. We can't tell what tone of voice is being used when typing so all we have to go on is caps.......regardless of the intention...........well hell, you can't tell the intention, which is the problem...........use caps wisely.

Thanks,

Tim

[Gary Winckler]

Thanks Gary!! That is what I was wanting to see. I have never seen one at this stage before, only the finished product that is wrapped in mulehide.

How much of the 2 seems running to the swell gets trimmed off?? and is it possible to do this type of horn cover without the mulehide wrap or is it just the accepted practice that it gets mulehided??

..................and everybody turn the caps off and resume handing out useful knowledge. We can't tell what tone of voice is being used when typing so all we have to go on is caps.......regardless of the intention...........well hell, you can't tell the intention, which is the problem...........use caps wisely.

Thanks,

Tim

Tim

Most of the seem leather ....as much as you can without getting the seems....is trimmed off, moistened, and flattened down to the neck of the horn. I have never seen a wrap job like this not covered by some kind of wrapping, mulehide, latigo, etc.

[tnestes]

you keep yelling at me in capital bold letters, I take this as abrasive.

Cool off. Nobody's yelling at anybody here. I just wish we'd all stay on topic, which is why I did what I did. The brunt of what I was getting at went off on a highly unintended tangent. Anyway, back to my intended subject. One of the prettiest "post horn" saddles I've ever seen was done by Paul Van Dyke, and he used the method I want to learn more about how to do- covering the horn with wings, not a wrap. Heck, the horn on this saddle was not even round, it was a guadalajara horn. This was different than the "norm," sure, but not wrong. Of course, you can use this method with wings, and still use a "temporary" mullhide wrap for roping/dallies, and wing protection, right? I've always admired the saddles from the 40s, 50s, and 60s when makers often used the big Mexican horns with hardly ever using a wrap. Over history, from what I've studied, saddles are like clothes- styles change, leave, come back in style, etc. Again, I appreciate your help very much.

Edited September 27, 2008 by tnestes