A Couple Of Questions For The Experts, Regarding Leather On Boots

[fsmassey]

Greetings from California!

I am currently deciding between two different pairs of boots that are available to me. The only difference between the two sets, is the leather type. Both are full grain leather.

http://hypebeast.com/2011/9/red-wing-shoes-6-moc-olive-mohave-boots - An Olive Rough-out pair of boots.

http://hypebeast.com/2010/10/ronnie-fieg-x-red-wing-ashy-grey-6-boot - An ultra rare pair of Grey Oil Tanned Boots

The boots I buy will be accompanying me up mountains (with Crampons strapped on), through forests, down into jungles. I spend a lot of time backpacking and traveling through different climates. What I'm looking for in these pair of boots, is something to be as durable and long lasting as possible, able to handle diverse climates and situations. While I realize that nothing lasts forever, I would like these boots to last my adventuring days at least. Right now I'm leaning towards the Rough Out leather, based on the information I've been able to find about its durability.

My questions are as follows:

Would Oil Tanned Leather out last Rough Out Leather, if kept maintained?

Does Rough Out leather eventually wear down to the Corium, and then eventually the Top Grain?

If it does, do you condition the deeper layers to prolong them?

How would one go about dying Rough Out Leather?

Specifically, if I wanted to dye the Olive Pair to a Grey. (I'm completely new Leather Dying)

If I want to stiffen up the boots, specifically for mountaineering and putting on crampons, how would I do this?

Would Boiling the leather have any side effects?

Any comments or information I might find useful is welcome, as well, thanks for any responses and help I get!

[Matt S]

Before the leather the thing that struck me was the sole. IMHO totally unsuitable for the sort of thing you want to do; not enough grip and will likely wear out before long. For arduous use I would look at something with a commando sole (probably in Vibram). Secondly those don't look like they have enough ankle support; far too flimsy. Although these have the name Red Wing the company has been producing a lot of 'lifestyle' products in recent years, along with many previously premium outdoors and workwear manufacturers. They may look the part to the uninitiated but that's about all they do.

Without intending to cause offence, what is your experience level with outdoorsiness? Your fitness level? Your foot shape? Your budget? These are things to consider first. Then find as many 'proper' outdoors shops in your area as you can. Ones that know what they are talking about and will fit you and find you a correct type of boot. It is not something that you can do online. I have been hiking, camping and running the woods since I was a kid, laboured outdoors for a few years in all sorts of weather and then still learned a lot when I went to sell outdoors kit for a living.

Finally, I don't think I'd buy another pair of roughout boots. They have been issued by several armies, including the US but I found with my ones (French Army copies of the US roughout) the same issues as them; the idea is that the flesh side will absorb dressing/dubbin to a greater extent than the grain side but it just doesn't work like that. They absorb water very fast, even saturated with dressing. Then they get cold and wet inside. It also means that grit gets into the fibres of the leather faster and that's when it starts degrading.

[fsmassey]

I'm very aware of the faults of that boot. I'm considering getting different models of boots as well, but first I need to learn about the raw materials going into the boot. If I bought these boots, you can bet I would be contacting Red Wing first thing, asking to get a lug sole stitched on.

Right now, I spend a couple weeks to a month, per year, backpacking in places around Northern California. The most common area I go to is the Yosemite valley.

Currently, I use Nike free trainers as hiking shoes. Note that these have NO ankle support, yet I've never had so much as bad blisters or a rolled ankle. I would like to think my natural dexterity keeps me from any issues or injury, but I might just be lucky. I am an ex boxer, and I keep myself at about an 8 on the fitness scale (10 being a competitive athlete). The boots I will be buying will be mostly used around the northern american forest and mountains below 14000 elevation.

As per your experience with rough out, did you buy full grain? From what I understand, the top grain is what keeps the water out, and if the manufacturer cuts off the top grain, then the leather is essentially a sponge with no barrier between that and your foot.

[Matt S]

I'm very aware of the faults of that boot. I'm considering getting different models of boots as well, but first I need to learn about the raw materials going into the boot. If I bought these boots, you can bet I would be contacting Red Wing first thing, asking to get a lug sole stitched on.

Right now, I spend a couple weeks to a month, per year, backpacking in places around Northern California. The most common area I go to is the Yosemite valley.

Currently, I use Nike free trainers as hiking shoes. Note that these have NO ankle support, yet I've never had so much as bad blisters or a rolled ankle. I would like to think my natural dexterity keeps me from any issues or injury, but I might just be lucky. I am an ex boxer, and I keep myself at about an 8 on the fitness scale (10 being a competitive athlete). The boots I will be buying will be mostly used around the northern american forest and mountains below 14000 elevation.

Your fitness is better than 90+% of people I know (including my own) so no problems there. I would agree that you don't *need* supported ankle boots if you are sufficiently fit and strong and not carrying ridiculous packweights. People got along just fine for millions of years before the high-and-tight boots became popular .

As per your experience with rough out, did you buy full grain? From what I understand, the top grain is what keeps the water out, and if the manufacturer cuts off the top grain, then the leather is essentially a sponge with no barrier between that and your foot.

They're a fullgrain vegtan. No fillers, no padding, no rubbish. Moulded leather insoles, quadruple-stitched vamps, stitched soles, nailed on heels. Don't see that on many boots these days. They drink up the dressing (I use dubbin) and are certainly well stuffed. They seem fine initially but after you've been in the water any length of time a certain familiar damp seepage begins. It's a damned shame since they are great boots otherwise.

It's not so much that the topgrain works as a waterproof layer in leather in general. Certainly it's less absorbent than the flesh side but it's not impermeable, unless you use a heavy coating like an acrylic or saturate it with wax but neither is ideal with boots. There is a certain consensus that leather is never truly waterproof, though certain preparations and treatments can delay the wetting or mitigate its effects.

Beading treatments (like Scotchguard) help when there is rain or mist -- but don't help much in heavy wetness and wear off quickly.

Heavy waxing or acrylic finishes don't work well on boots -- too hard/inflexible and acrylic would probably crack.

Greasing and such (e.g. dubbin) help, and keep the leather in good condition, but water will eventually seep through.

Many bootmakers try to get around these issues by laminating with a membrane, often something in the "waterproof but breathable" category such as Goretex, eVent etc. -- but these don't work nearly as well as the manufacturers claim and the membranes wear out and grow holes quite quickly. Fully waterproof boots are not desirable as the surprisingly large amount of sweat your feet produce in a day has nowhere to go. Trenchfoot is not fun (trust me on that).

My humble opinion is that roughout boots are only useful to hide the signs of their use for longer (that and hiding manufacturers using cheap suede splits as you mention).

For your requirements the standard advice I would give to most people is to find a quality boot of a type (and perhaps model) that first-world militaries tend to issue; topgrain smoothout leather, about 10 inches high, decent soles and decent woolen socks with a thin wool or synthetic liner sock. Change socks regularly, avoid putting on wet socks, and wash as often as you can. Accept getting a bit wet and maybe have a lightweight set of shoes for use around camp. This is almost verbatim what most people who actually live and work outdoors will tell you (as opposed to park strollers, dog walkers and dayhikers). Coincidentally it is pretty much verbatim what militaries teach their recruits and is borne out by experience in the field. You might be able to relax some of the above; a pair of 'proper' leather boots will weigh about 2-3 times what you are used to and unless you will be carrying heavy packweights is possibly excessive considering your fitness level.

[fsmassey]

Being in my young twenties, there would be something very wrong with me if I didn't make good use of my young body. Thank you for all of the information.

As for your recommendation, when you say top grain smooth out, are you referring to nubuck leather? There's another model of Red Wings, called the Nom De Guerre model, made with this. Unfortunately, it seems I'll never get my hands on those.

I wanted to have a boot that could possibly stand up to crossing small creeks and rivers, but I understand that if I'm trekking through water frequently, a watershoe/sandal is probably the smarter decision.

What you're saying makes me think that if water were to get inside my boot, rough out boots would be inferior to top grain boots. The fleshy side seems that it might be more useful to absorb sweat and any

Water that might get in. Also, you referred to "grit" as what wears out the rough out leather, I assumed it meant brush and rubbish that boots come into contact with regularly.

[J Hayes]

You seem sold on Red Wings, any reason?

[fsmassey]

I find the history of the brand very intriguing, and I loved that they maintain the boots for you over the years. Having a piece of equipment with that much history behind it, on top of renown quality and original style.... its a piece of culture, a piece of art, a symbol. Even if I got those rare, 1 in 300 or so pairs, I would still wear the crud out of them.

The challenge is to take something like that and making it functional and comparable to modern day options. What I would really consider these boots to be, is a base boot. I would modify them in any way humanly possible to make them more efficient at what it is I'm doing. I.E., if I need a more athletic sole for hiking (I'm sure I will), then I will find a way to stitch on a different sole. If the boot needs insulation, etc,. Inefficient, yes, but very meaningful to me to have a say in personalizing and customizing the equipment I'll be using.

Hence, I came here to start at the core. The leather.

I came here thinking Rough out was the logical way to go, but am not believing so anymore.

Edited December 8, 2013 by fsmassey

[J Hayes]

West coast boots, Westco, will build you a pair. Note: I have no affiliation nor have I ever used their boots, came across them on my search for a USA made logger. Looks interesting.

Red Wing does have a long history, unfortunately most of their product line is imported now, as is most other manufacturers. I replaced a pair of Carolina boots with Red Wings once, wish I would've bought Carolina's instead, the RWs never really fit right. Try on whatever you get and don't be blinded by the brand or what is in fashion, get what works. Also I wouldn't modify a boot like that. Jmo. Spend the money on several pairs or one really well fit pair. My old Carolina's were fit like a glove, stand in the hike in them run in them. Model 1922

Edited December 8, 2013 by J Hayes

[Matt S]

As for your recommendation, when you say top grain smooth out, are you referring to nubuck leather?

Almost. Nubuck is topgrain that has been sanded and dyed to hide blemishes and look like suede.

I wanted to have a boot that could possibly stand up to crossing small creeks and rivers, but I understand that if I'm trekking through water frequently, a watershoe/sandal is probably the smarter decision.

If a hiking boot (any hiking boot) doesn't withstand a wetting it's not fit to be sold.

What you're saying makes me think that if water were to get inside my boot, rough out boots would be inferior to top grain boots. The fleshy side seems that it might be more useful to absorb sweat and any water that might get in. Also, you referred to "grit" as what wears out the rough out leather, I assumed it meant brush and rubbish that boots come into contact with regularly.

If water gets inside your boots your feet will get wet whatever they're made of The top side of the grain (the bit you'd see on a live cow) is the toughest bit of the leather and less absorbent than the flesh side. That's why I like it on the outside of boots.

Remember that the history of Red Wings, impressive as it is, is just that -- history. Ever worn a pair of Levis 501s? I've had a few. Every pair gets thinner and crappier and lasts less time, yet the history of Levi's is that of a good value workwear company. Not what I'd expect for a £85 pair of thin jeans that don't last. I've never owned a pair of Red Wings, always been put off by reports of their current production. (See J Hayes' above post.) Yet notice that Levis and Red Wing spend a lot of time cultivating their brand, their image -- which is in fact quite similar. They don't sell too well to labourers or outdoorsmen any more. As to whether they measure up I'll leave that for you to decide.

[fsmassey]

Hey guys, thought I'd give you an update on how my search has developed. I've narrowed it down by leather, boot style, lug style, found your advice to be the quite practical.

Behold, Red Wing 899. http://www.redwingshoes.com/red-wing-shoe/899-red-wing-shoes/899-red-wing-mens-8-inch-boot-brown

I think you'll like em.

[J Hayes]

Those will probably be much much better on the trail than the original ones you posted. They seem to be some sort of custom fit? Your Redwing dealer carry USA made shoes? I know the ones here in Wisconsin don't, or at least not the loggers, and the Chinese made ones seem way off in sizing, well for Carolina brand anyway.

[fsmassey]

From what I understand, certain collections, such as the heritage or irish setter, are made in Minnesota still. The regular line of boots is outsourced and manufactured from cheaper labor.

Those specifically, seem to only be MTO now. I haven't gone into the store too many times yet... hopefully the process is pretty painless