Wet Formed Cue Case

[BDAZ]

i am sorry Bob, I would have to disagree. You have to get paid for yourtime, and hand stitching is a value added feature whether it is of actual\quantifiable value (Stronget lighter etc. ) or perceived value (nicer, more refined, special, unique). If for no other reason than to give your additional labor a value.

I'll see your disagree and raise you one.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense? The product is being hand stitched because the maker doesn't own an appropriate machine. If it was an item that required hand stitching or a product that would benefit from being offered to a market that appreicted and valued hand stitching, one could charge for the labor, however, I believe (I don't know for sure) that's not the case.

Cary has essentially made a prototype and is the process of test marketing and needs to establish a price for his production model that will both sell and compensate him for his time and materials. With the amount of stitching, it is VERY unlikely he will be compensated more than a few bucks and hour. You could ask around and see if anyone offers a leather stitching service. Ask them what they would charge and there's your number and an option until a machine is justified.

Another aspect is the value of the cue. If it is a $200 cue, a $100 case makes no sense, however if it is a $2000 cue, then a $200 case does. It's a rough figure but I have always found, with instruments , that the price of the case is +- 10% the value of the instrument.

Cya!

Bob

Edited February 5, 2014 by BDAZ

[Fullmetalsam]

Cool case !

But I wanted to chime in on the pricing thing as well

I'm with Kwelna on this - to me, it's the underselling your work that doesn't make any sense.

Regardless of the tools and/or machines at your disposal - you should charge a price that will cover your costs (and the time you took to make the item is one of those costs)... there's no point in selling otherwise... at least to me.

Thing here is that CareyB is trying to enter a well established market (cue cases) where they are some pretty strong competition which have doing this for a long long time and are experience in making cue case and have the appropriate tools to do the job well and quick.

But even then - I'm pretty sure Nigel Armitage doesn't price his goods as if they were machine stitch... he's known for hand stitching everything and he prices accordingly. It's not because a machine could do a better and/or quicker job that you should take that into account when pricing your work.

[BDAZ]

Sam, this quandary is not unique to leather products but any business making any product. I did 10 minutes research and it seems that the going retail price for a cue case is between $29 and $500.

http://www.billiardwarehouse.com/cases/index.html

If I were in your position and was serious abut making cases, I would pick a case from the above makers that is similar to mine and cut the retail by 10% or so as an introduction. Then you need to become as efficient as possible so you can produce these cases at a price that will both sell and produce a profitable business. This my include investing in a sewing machine, punches, different construction methods, etc. If you want to simply work of costs, labor and a fixed markup, you may price yourself out of the market.

I started making my cases, which are taking off like a rocket, I hand made a number of prototypes. I test marketed these prototypes and showed them to a lot of potential customers. I asked what they paid for the item they would be putting in the case, and what they would paid for this or have paid for a similar item. I then approached the local retail stores and asked what margin they would need on these hand made custom (the customer selects finish and can have his name stamped). I came in a few dollars cheaper than their expectations. Next I had to be able to produce these products' profitibaly and looked at all aspects of production, priced all my materials in bulk, eliminated as much hand work as possible using punches, a new sewing machine, air brush, and other templates. BAM! The orders are pouring in and I can produce multiple items in under 1/2 hour when it took me two or three each for the prototypes.

The product looks great, works beautifully and sells itself. If things go really well, I'll rent production space, buy another machine and hire some folks to ratchet up production.

If this is just a hobby, then by all means charge $500 or $1000 each and spend as much time as you need on each case, have fun and make each one a work of art.

Cya!

Bob

[kwelna]

Bob In many ways I agree with everything you say and and I think your 10% is a great rule of thumb for anyone looking for just any case. But I think you are forgeting the ego\vanity factor. SInce I can achive the same functional results with a peice of PVC tube, I can actually get by with a case for under $5-$10 . It will be ugly and maybe an embarrassment to carry, but functionaly it will work. So anything beyond that becomes a luxury item. So now you need to market to the persons ego \ vanity. Hence the higher priced cue cases. Think of it like a car. A Fiat will get you to work just fine, but a full sized Caddy\Mercedes\BMW etc. will get you there in comfort and "style" Luxury vs. Utility.

I am lucky in that I leather work as a hobby not a living. I have tremendouse respect for those of you that are able to make a living at this craft. SInce it is only a hoby for me, I only take on projects that interest me and I change a premium price for my work. It is not that I am a great leather worker, far from it. It is just that if i am going to burn my free time, I want to get compensated to a degree that it makes it worth while and defiently pays for materials and any additional tools. Oddly enough, I actually give away way more than I sell. Especially experiments and prototypes. I like to see the look of appreciation on my friends faces when they get an item and they have no idea why it is not right in my eyes. One other suggestion and something that I do, is the first one that comes out right or great, I keep for myself. Kinda dumb I know and agree, but there you have it, I never said I was the brightest bulb on the tree........

[BDAZ]

Based on the above and what I have seen on the web I would suggest that your cases should fetch $400-$500 to the right buyer.

Cya!

Bob

[shtoink]

I make a similar item and I have made plugs from dowels slightly larger than the item, then after the item is stitched, I case the leather on the top and insert the dowels and allow the item to dry. It holds it's shape well without the hassles of a form and lengthy drying.

With that setup, a vacuum bagging process might help. You could have it rested up against a smooth, flat surface for the back to keep it nice and flat. It'd also allow you to do multiple cases in a time, depending on the size of the bag you make. The vacuum won't care, it'll evacuate the air just the same.

Bagging material can be cut to the size you need and as long as it's sealed properly and taken care of, it's reusable.

[RiverCity]

I was refraining from commenting as to suggested pricing. I make cue cases for a living, and I know what the market will bear. Between the wet forming, and hand stitching, you will not be able to sell your design for anywhere near what it is worth, unless you do not value your time. I can saddle stitch, but choose not to based on what I would charge to do so. I purposely did not do pockets on my first cases in part because of not having a sewing machine. Pool players do not understand or care about actual leatherworking. There is one guy in the market right now making IMO some of the most hideous cases I've ever seen, with very bad leather carving, but he is doing well because his stuff looks flashy and he likes to use exotics. He got a fan base from looks, not quality. Show it to a room full of leather workers and he would probably get laughed at.

The suggested prices quoted so far are not accurate. For a non tooled case as you have built, you would be doing really well to get 200-250 for it. And that's after you have built a bit of a name for yourself. Pool players are cheap, and as I have said do not know or care about good leather work.

I recently sold this case for under 700 http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=53266 and with the time I put into it, I'm no where near what I set for myself as an hourly rate. In essence I lost money on the case. But in the cue case market, it was a fair price for the case.

Chuck

[CareyB]

Chuck,

That's much the same conclusion I was coming to. I did do that case for $200, but was thinking it should be around $350, which, for a 1x1 case is pretty freakin' steep.

Your case is fantastic, by the way, and certainly worth more than $700, based on what I've seen of the competition ;-) Unless you have a crew mass producing them, hand making a cue case does look like it might always be a losing proposition without some time-saving 'shortcuts'.

BTW - do you use a rigid insert? I've been hunting for the right material, and the best thing I can find is oval PVC conduit, but I can only find it in the U.K., and I don't fancy paying shipping on a case of eight foot pipes.

@shtoink, vacuum forming would speed it up, but wouldn't it leave marks on the wet leather? And how much does a vacuum former cost?

I'm loathe to use a sewing machine. It would not be the same product.

[Rayban]

At golf shops you can get these plastic tubes you use to keep the clubs from tangling up in the bag...those would be good inserts I think.

As for you comment re- using a machine, I don't agree.....but that's a whole nudder conversation.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Rayban

[BDAZ]

With that setup, a vacuum bagging process might help. You could have it rested up against a smooth, flat surface for the back to keep it nice and flat. It'd also allow you to do multiple cases in a time, depending on the size of the bag you make. The vacuum won't care, it'll evacuate the air just the same.

Bagging material can be cut to the size you need and as long as it's sealed properly and taken care of, it's reusable.

Has anyone used the plastic vacuum clothes bags? I would think a piece of ply with the item on it my do the trick?

Cya!

Bob