Singer Schematics Similarities?

[treborterb]

Are any of the schematics for other Singer 29K machines close or even remotely similar to the 29-4? Can any portions of the other 29K machine schematics (such as the 29 71) be used to aid in assembly/disassembly of any portion of the 29-4?

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

The machines are very similar in the top end but a -4 is very different in the bottom end.

The good news is that they really only go together one way.....

[treborterb]

Thats good news...keep hearing that if the gears in the arm that holds the bobbin are'nt replaced correctly in reassembly, it could lead to all sorts of problems...so I have to hope that they are in correctly now and make sure that they go back in the same way I take them out. Good to know that I can refer to the diagrams for another model to at least attempt to disassemble and clean the top half...thanks.

[Wizcrafts]

Another difference is that the ancient patchers had a torsion bar pressure spring running along the back side of the body, whereas the 29k models switched over some time ago to an internal coil spring, with a screw in adjuster for foot pressure. The old torsion bar had a sliding puck to adjust the amount of lift the foot got, while the newer style has a butterfly screw in a slot, directly on the back side of the head.

Furthermore, the newer style has a screw adjuster inside the trapeze on top. That adjuster allows you to control the position of the knots, or to add/subtract slack in the top thread. It can add lift to the take-up lever as the needle ascends The old model 4 only has a thin spring to keep the thread under control as the needle bar moves down. It does not add lift as it ascends.

The newer models have a removable gear box, where the -4 does not.

[treborterb]

Thank you Wizcraft...I will be going over the manuals and diagrams when I get the time to sit down and properly look em over. Have already started looking for my next machine as I slowly learn the advantages of one machine over another, I can't help but feel the desire to upgrade to one of the newer models (funny to be using the term newer when discussing these 100+ year old machines)...I have images of the 29K 70 and 71 and 73 as well as the model 29K 60 and 62...all of these machines I believe to be newer, improved models over the 29-4.

On another note...could you tell me what would be the largest needle size and thread combination that the 29-4 could possibly handle considering its age?.

[shoepatcher]

I have seen a 29-4 sew with a #25 needle and 207 thread on top, #138 in the bottom. However, that size thread in the bobbin means you can't go very far before you run out or thread!

[Wizcrafts]

....I have images of the 29K 70 and 71 and 73 as well as the model 29K 60 and 62...all of these machines I believe to be newer, improved models over the 29-4.

On another note...could you tell me what would be the largest needle size and thread combination that the 29-4 could possibly handle considering its age?.

The 29-4 was an mid-early model in the development of the UF machines and an improvement over the first designs. 100 years ago they were state of the art for what they were built to sew: shoe and boot uppers and thin leather straps and patches on sleeves and knees. The cobblers and saddlers did not have any bonded nylon or polyester thread; just cotton and glazed or hand waxed linen.

Over time the design was modified to make the machine more usable for a wider variety of work, eventually including handling of very strong bonded thread. This thread places more stress on the tensioning items, including the take-up lever and check spring. It also is rougher on the shuttle gear, with the increased top tension needed to pull knots up. Advancing the leather with tight bonded nylon stitches is harder than with cotton or linen thread, which has a softer lay. This causes the thread feeding cam and ring to wear down, leading to smaller stitches.

Thus, patchers wear out faster when used with modern thread than if one stayed with glazed cotton or linen.

The newer models, with replaceable gear boxes and thread slack adjusters on top can have bottom end parts replaced more easily than the old style, which has the rack gears hidden inside the arm.

The original needle system for Singer patchers was Singer type 29x3 and 29x4. Those are going out of production now, so most of the working patchers are using system 135x16 instead. The shaft top end fits inside the needle hole and the length to the eye is about the same. But, the 135x16 has a cut-away scarf, where the 29x4 is straight all the way to the eye. A marginally timed 29 machine with system 135 needles may skip stitches more often than the same machine with system 29x4.

As for the maximum needle size size the 29-4 can handle, that would be as large a needle as will fit into the needle mount and make it through the large hole in the throat plate. It would need to be moved to the left to avoid making hard contact with the hook.

The thread is another matter. You can use any size thread you like, as long as it fits through the eye of the needle. But, will the mechanism be able to pull it up to form a knot inside your leather? In my personal experience, with 5 patchers I've owned, the practical limit is #138 bonded thread on top and #92 in the (tiny) bobbin. While you can use #138 in the bobbin, it won't go very far and requires more top tension and a bigger (#23) needle to get the job done. Bigger needles and heavier thread puts more stress on the presser foot spring, which must then be tightened up to hold the leather down. This adds more work for the feed cam, usually leading to shorter stitches.

With the cost of replacement parts being higher through the years, I want my patcher to outlive me. So, I limit it to #92 thread, maximum. Most of the time I use #69, top and bottom. It is easier on the entire mechanism and can be used to sew very thin projects once around and thicker ones twice around. Then, it's time to load another bobbin!

[Wizcrafts]

I forgot to mention that with #69 thread I use #18 needles. They poke a hole very easily and it doesn't require very much foot pressure to hold the leather down as the needle ascends with the knots.

[treborterb]

The 29-4 was an mid-early model in the development of the UF machines and an improvement over the first designs. 100 years ago they were state of the art for what they were built to sew: shoe and boot uppers and thin leather straps and patches on sleeves and knees. The cobblers and saddlers did not have any bonded nylon or polyester thread; just cotton and glazed or hand waxed linen.

Over time the design was modified to make the machine more usable for a wider variety of work, eventually including handling of very strong bonded thread. This thread places more stress on the tensioning items, including the take-up lever and check spring. It also is rougher on the shuttle gear, with the increased top tension needed to pull knots up. Advancing the leather with tight bonded nylon stitches is harder than with cotton or linen thread, which has a softer lay. This causes the thread feeding cam and ring to wear down, leading to smaller stitches.

Thus, patchers wear out faster when used with modern thread than if one stayed with glazed cotton or linen.

The newer models, with replaceable gear boxes and thread slack adjusters on top can have bottom end parts replaced more easily than the old style, which has the rack gears hidden inside the arm.

The original needle system for Singer patchers was Singer type 29x3 and 29x4. Those are going out of production now, so most of the working patchers are using system 135x16 instead. The shaft top end fits inside the needle hole and the length to the eye is about the same. But, the 135x16 has a cut-away scarf, where the 29x4 is straight all the way to the eye. A marginally timed 29 machine with system 135 needles may skip stitches more often than the same machine with system 29x4.

As for the maximum needle size size the 29-4 can handle, that would be as large a needle as will fit into the needle mount and make it through the large hole in the throat plate. It would need to be moved to the left to avoid making hard contact with the hook.

The thread is another matter. You can use any size thread you like, as long as it fits through the eye of the needle. But, will the mechanism be able to pull it up to form a knot inside your leather? In my personal experience, with 5 patchers I've owned, the practical limit is #138 bonded thread on top and #92 in the (tiny) bobbin. While you can use #138 in the bobbin, it won't go very far and requires more top tension and a bigger (#23) needle to get the job done. Bigger needles and heavier thread puts more stress on the presser foot spring, which must then be tightened up to hold the leather down. This adds more work for the feed cam, usually leading to shorter stitches.

With the cost of replacement parts being higher through the years, I want my patcher to outlive me. So, I limit it to #92 thread, maximum. Most of the time I use #69, top and bottom. It is easier on the entire mechanism and can be used to sew very thin projects once around and thicker ones twice around. Then, it's time to load another bobbin!

Excellent info as usual Wizcraft...just talked to Bob again at Toledo Industrial sewing and I have the equivalent of the size 18 needle (110 I believe) coming, as well as several larger sizes and the Tex 92 thread as well as the #69 on the way. I was trying to inquire of Bob on the availability of replacement "feed cam" parts and he wasn't sure what part I was referring to, so I told him I would try to get a part number for him, but, I thought I remembered someone commenting in another thread that certain parts aren't to be had any longer and if those are too badly worn, will basically relegate the machine to large "boat anchor"status. Hoping my machine doesn't fall into that category. In another thread, if I recall correctly, it was possible to test for excessive feed mechanism wear by attempting to move the lifted presser foot and if it had 1/16" or more of play...it indicated an overly worn feedcam part/parts. I'll have to try to locate that particular post to make sure I'm not taking things out of context.

I forgot to mention that with #69 thread I use #18 needles. They poke a hole very easily and it doesn't require very much foot pressure to hold the leather down as the needle ascends with the knots.

Got home and spent some more time cleaning and oiling on the 29-4 and things are coming along but have to wait for my parts order to arrive to do any real testing. A little embarrased to ask such simple questions, but when you speak of "ascend with the knot", do you mean after the needle passes through the material and picks up the thread from the bobbin, it forms a knot on its return, upwards through the material?

I have seen a 29-4 sew with a #25 needle and 207 thread on top, #138 in the bottom. However, that size thread in the bobbin means you can't go very far before you run out or thread!

Nice to know that a well timed machine in really good condition is capable of that but I'm afraid my machine isn't quite in that category (one can hope though)

Edited April 2, 2014 by treborterb

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Due to the age and wear in a 29-4 I would not use anything heavier than #69

[treborterb]

Thanks Darren...I'm sure you're right but can't resist trying just to see if it'll work.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

To avoid the wear problems caused by bonded threads High Tenacity Polyester is an excellent alternative.

[treborterb]

Where can I find more info about the high tenacity polyester...I'll be googling it but sometimes someone will have sources or links that can be difficult to find solely by using google. Thanks.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Amann Serafil is HT Polyester.

I was the one who mentioned "boat anchor" status.

The two potential issues with such an old machine are presser foot feed adjustment - which determines stitch length - and wear in the shuttle drive gears.

[treborterb]

I'm not able to check for Bell Crank wear because I'm waiting for a replacement stitch adjustment screw with the gib and small square mounting bracket...but as soon as I get it I'll be able to run the machine and then check the presser foot for wear in the Bell Crank Lever by placing the presser foot lifter bar in the up (raised) position and checking to see if there is any movement in the foot...is that right? As far as checking for wear in the shuttle drive gears, those are located in the arm carrying the bobbin shuttle assembly, right ? Is there a way to check this for wear or is it just a matter of removing the plate covering the rack and pinion gears and visually examining them? What exactly will I be looking for? Will the wear be obvious or is there a way to check how badly worn the part in question is? (and what part am I looking at/for?) I understand that its important to invert the machine and note the position of the gears because by removing the plate covering the pinion and gears, they will fall out and the timing will be affected if the gears aren't put back exactly the way they came out.Thanks.