Sewing machine comparison and Selection

[bar-j]

I am looking for recommendations on a sewing machine for tack work - bridles and breastcollars (not doing saddle skirts or stitching on any veg tan over 20 oz.) I have been looking online at the Artisan 618, Toro-3000 and the Ferdco 1245 primarily. Does anyone have experience with these machines or could anyone offer a comparison of the models - ease of use, stitch quality, etc. I am familiar with the different specs on these machines, but have not had the opportunity to see them in person. I am looking for a machine that will sew anything from 3 oz of deerskin up to 20 oz of veg tan and is easy for a novice to operate and maintain. Also, if there are any other machines you would recommend instead of these, please let me know. Budget is around 2000.00. Thank you for any input.

[bruce johnson]

My thoughts based on your constraints. You need the 3000. I have Ferdco's 1245. It is an awesome machine, it will do what you are looking to do up to a point. A few things that a flat bed won't do as easily. It will not do gussets in saddle bags as easily as a cylinder arm. It will not do thread over 207 I am thinking. That may be enough, might not. The 3000 will do heavier thread and the cylinder arm is more versatile. You can buy more "tack friendly" attachments for the 3000, like stirrup plates, feet, etc. You can make or probably buy a flat bed attachment to make the 3000 a flat bed when you need it. The ends of my breast collars would be pushing the limits of the 1245, it is midrange for the 3000. Either way you will get a servo motor, so that is not an issue. Neither is service and support with your choices.

Tippmann's Boss used to be the entry level machine. It held its value pretty well, and when it was time to trade up, it brought back most of the original price. Almost like using it for free. I think the 3000 has taken that spot over now. If you decide later you need more reach and decide to get an even heavier stitcher like the 4000 or Ferdco's 2000, you won't take a bath on the 3000. It would also make a dandy heavier machine, and get a flatbed to do the lighter stuff. If your business goes that way, it is nice to have two machines setup for different weights.

[bar-j]

Thank you for the input. Do you think you could sew deerskin okay on the 3000 or would I need a lighter machine also? Thanks

[bruce johnson]

I think it would feed it OK. You might need to back off tensions a bit. I have sewn some deertan cow on my 2000 and it did fine with it. Art??

[bar-j]

I really appreciate your help. Thanks.

[Andy]

Bar J,

I run an Adler 205 and postively love it, good machine for 99% of my work and sews from light to heavy with ease. I have seen some used ones on some pages and here too (John Stumpf perhaps? John, you here????) I have only spoken with him, seems like a SUPERB guy and knows his stuff. Let me find his web page and email.

I have tested the other machines but settled for the Adler after trying them. Hope that helps, email me if needed!

Andy

www.shottist.com

[Art]

Hi Bruce,

Back off the tension or get a blanket foot. Work a deal for one when you buy the machine. The 3000 has dogs, which can really help with feed problems. I know some who run the blanket foot all the time, but it is way too big for some close work, still a handy thing to have. The 3000 is right about in the required price range and the 618 is a little cheaper, with the 20oz you would be on the edge for the 618 and I don't think I would buy without some headroom.

Art

  bruce johnson said:

I think it would feed it OK. You might need to back off tensions a bit. I have sewn some deertan cow on my 2000 and it did fine with it. Art??

[Randyc]

Bar J

I'm rather partial to the 3000. I upgraded from a Tippmann Boss and never regretted it. I purchased mine with the flat bed attachment although I seldem use it. I agree with Bruce. With proper tensioning you should be able to stitch 3oz. just fine.

Randy

[esantoro]

  Randyc said:

Bar J

I'm rather partial to the 3000. I upgraded from a Tippmann Boss and never regretted it. I purchased mine with the flat bed attachment although I seldem use it. I agree with Bruce. With proper tensioning you should be able to stitch 3oz. just fine.

Randy

with the 3000 and 3oz leather, make sure the center foot descends all the way to the needle plate. with my 441/4000/2000 I got better results with the blanket foot on thinner leather, still better with the dropped center foot.

ed

[esantoro]

  esantoro said:

with the 3000 and 3oz leather, make sure the center foot descends all the way to the needle plate. with my 441/4000/2000 I got better results with the blanket foot on thinner leather, still better with the dropped center foot.

ed

Actually the center foot should already be installed so that it descends all the way to the needle plate. The bar that holds the outer feet is the one I had to adjust so that the outer feet descend all the way to the needle plate.

ed

[bar-j]

Wow - this board is great. Sounds like the 3000 is the way to go.

Thanks - Jeannette

[Bob]

well for my two bits worth....

I bought a Ferdco pro 2000 about 14 years ago, the feed dogs were taken out on this model. Ferdco reworked the 441 juki head. The feed dogs were replace with a needle guide. Which I simply removed. This machine sews it all quite nicely. It's really hard to beat for versatillity...

Bob

[bcurrier]

  Bob said:

I bought a Ferdco pro 2000 about 14 years ago, the feed dogs were taken out on this model. Ferdco reworked the 441 juki head. The feed dogs were replace with a needle guide. Which I simply removed.

Now that's interesting. You removed the needle guide? Why - Ferdco actually promotes the lower needle guide as one of the primary advantages of their machine.

Bill

[esantoro]

  bcurrier said:

Now that's interesting. You removed the needle guide? Why - Ferdco actually promotes the lower needle guide as one of the primary advantages of their machine.

Bill

I don't understand how Ferdco's needle guide can guide anything with so much of the steel removed to ensure the needle doesn't crash down on the guide, though I have only Ferdco's website picture to go by.

ed

[Bob]

I broke too many needles with that @#$%^ needle guide. It would forever work itself loose, so I toke it out and no more problems...

Bob

[bcurrier]

To be honest, those few comments ended any interest of mine in Ferdco's 2000. It isn't that they aren't great machines with a good reputation and support (they are). Without the needle guide, it really boils down to a clone vs. clone quality discussion, and Artisan has a similar reputation and is better priced. I'm looking forward to my 4000 (and validation of my opinion!). It shipped yesterday.

Bill

[bruce johnson]

I started out with an Adler 205-64 when I upgraded from the Boss. It was a great machine, but had a couple drawbacks. It didn't have needle guide or center presser foot. It had a feed dog underneath that came up through the throatplate. The hole in the feed dog was fairly small. If I got much deflection with heavy leather (like reusing holes sometimes, or sewing tunnel loops onto back cinches), the needle would miss the hole and hit the feed dog. Then I for sure snapped the needle, and on occasion broke or bent the feed dog. Finally got a heavy duty feed dog that just snapped the needle.

I now have a two year old Pro 2000, and a Juki 2000 when Ferdco was still using the original Juki frames. They have the bigger hole in the bottom (diamond shaped). I am with Ed, not sure how much that helps, but the center presser foot dang sure keeps the needle from deflecting much, and my backside lines are straight. I have not snapped a needle in either 2000 yet. Curiosity question for the other 441 clone owners. I have never seen the underneath of any but mine. What kind of feed dog do they have? Also for the different Artisan 4000 models, I know the head is lighter in one of the 4000s, is the feed the same in both of them and the 3000?

[bcurrier]

The answers are suggesting limits to the 794 needle system, as the primary problem mentioned with the guide is deflection. Anyone aware of any heavier needle machine out there that would deflect less? Even the 1000H needle used in extremely heavy-duty machines uses a needle with the same shank diameter.

Or maybe the question is whether the deflection matters? Those of you who removed the guide still have the deflection, even if you're no longer breaking needles (or worse). I can only presume you just a little more careful on turns to make sure the hook is picking up the bobbin thread.

Bill

[Bob]

This pro 2000 I have has a center walking foot with a hole as well. Thats not what I'm talking about. The needle guide I'm referring to is underneat the plate and bolts into place where the feed dogs were. I don't have any problems with missing stitches. I can use a heavy needle and reline skirts that are twisted and sew in the same holes at warp speed, (with a reducer) and don't miss stitches or break needles. No troubles at all. For my money, I'm happy as a pig in poop with this machine. Won't trade it for nothing.

bobcat

[Bob]

I don't know anything about the artisons or aldler machines you all mentioned, cause I never used one.... This pro 2000 from Ferdco was reworked at new. They also shortened the needle bar, making it sew thicker material as well. This machine sews 1 inch if i asked it to. Sure you must have the correct sized needle and thread for that job.

bobcat

[bcurrier]

Twern't me, but the major factors in needle deflection would be the material and needle system.

The Juki that the F. 2000 and A. 4000 is based on uses a smaller needle system. The 794 is 25% thicker and both companies rework the needle bars. Glad to hear your guide works out.

Bill

[JohnsCustomLeather]

First off thanks for the referral Andy

This is my opinion to sew heavier weight the Adler 205 is one of the beter machines.

I have a 105 and a 205 in my shop to make it more versatile. I can sew jsut about anything with the 2 machines up to an inch.

To sew heavier you need a needle and awl machine. There is no substitute for their ability we can sew easily up to over 1 1/4". But they are not easy to keep running, you have to have some experience or know someone who does. And remember to always keep you fingers out of these ones, personal experience, because the machines don't feel a thing but you sure will.

I prefer the Adler Machines for up to 3/4"

John Stumpf

John's Custom Leather

523 S. Liberty St.

Blairsville, PA 15717

714-459-6802

jrstumpf@netzero.net

www.jclleathermachinery.com

www.johnscustomleather.com

[Art]

Hi Bruce,

The 4000P is a bigger, heftier, machine than the 441, the 4000 is a 441 clone, and the 3000 is somewhat of their own design using again quite a bit of 441 parts. Some of the 441 parts fit the 4000P, almost all of the 441 parts fit the 4000; and a lot of the 441 parts fit the 3000. The 3000s I have seen have dogs whereas the 4000P doesn't, however dogs are available for the blanket feed system on the 4000 which has a needle guide (aka hole) in the dog. The 4000P is a 20688-1 made by Huigong No.3 Sewing Machine Company in Shanghai, however a lot of things around the needle/feed are different, so some modifications have been made to the base product, it also has Japanese parts in it although I don't know if it is Artisan or Huigong doing that. The 4000 and 3000 are from different casting/assembling facilities and I think Jerry has his hands a bit deeper in the process (design etc.). The 618 and 797 are Huigong also. I don't quite know the lineage of Ferdco's machines, but I suspect something quite similar.

They usually remove the feed dogs from leather machines and install a "dogless" plate to keep the dogs from marking. The lower needle guide is basically the hole in the feed dogs. If you want the lower needle guide, you can engineer one by getting the dogs for your particular machine and grinding/machining away the dog part (as your needle plate probably won't have holes for them) and installing and adjusting it. Depending on the design of the machine, you may be able to run the feed dogs low enough to not interfere with the needle plate without having to grind anything, it just depends on the design. I can't say I have ever desired that little part, there may be some time it is necessary, but I have sewn everything from tripled 15oz veg to some ridiculous webbing and Kevlar sandwiches without any skipped stitches or crashed needles. I will occasionally crash a needle on the 618 when going down a hill in thick leather, but it has a needle guide in the dogs so there is only so much deflection before you don't hit the hole...snap.

The "lower needle guide" is really the hole in the dogs and that is really there because they make the dogs as one part, so there has to be a way to get the needle through them. The idea of a LNG is to eliminate deflection in the needle feed portion of the needle stroke and hence reduce skipping of stitches. I can see this as a fine idea if stitching 3/4" of leather with a 130 needle and 138 thread except for one thing; if it is a big stitcher, you are going to have a LNG that has to be big enough to pass a 250 through with some room to spare, which means there will still be opportunity for gross needle deflection. If you use a 230 or 250 needle and 346 thread, there isn't going to be much needle deflection anyway. So, if I was getting major deflection on a production machine, I would size the hole in the LNG to fit the needle, but then again, isn't that why we use a medium/light duty machine to do medium/light duty work?

Art

  bruce johnson said:

I started out with an Adler 205-64 when I upgraded from the Boss. It was a great machine, but had a couple drawbacks. It didn't have needle guide or center presser foot. It had a feed dog underneath that came up through the throatplate. The hole in the feed dog was fairly small. If I got much deflection with heavy leather (like reusing holes sometimes, or sewing tunnel loops onto back cinches), the needle would miss the hole and hit the feed dog. Then I for sure snapped the needle, and on occasion broke or bent the feed dog. Finally got a heavy duty feed dog that just snapped the needle.

I now have a two year old Pro 2000, and a Juki 2000 when Ferdco was still using the original Juki frames. They have the bigger hole in the bottom (diamond shaped). I am with Ed, not sure how much that helps, but the center presser foot dang sure keeps the needle from deflecting much, and my backside lines are straight. I have not snapped a needle in either 2000 yet. Curiosity question for the other 441 clone owners. I have never seen the underneath of any but mine. What kind of feed dog do they have? Also for the different Artisan 4000 models, I know the head is lighter in one of the 4000s, is the feed the same in both of them and the 3000?

[bcurrier]

  Art said:

The 4000P is a bigger, heftier, machine than the 441 ... The 4000P is a 20688-1 made by Huigong No.3 Sewing Machine Company in Shanghai, however a lot of things around the needle/feed are different, so some modifications have been made to the base product, it also has Japanese parts in it although I don't know if it is Artisan or Huigong doing that. ...

Great post, Art. Shanghai Huigong #3 owns the Highlead name. You can see this machine here - note that it does use the 794 needle system (DYx3).

http://www.friedlandersewing.com/highlead/...es/ga2688-1.php

I would love to know which factory(ies) Artisan sources the 4000R and 3000 from.

Bill

[JohnsCustomLeather]

Wouldn't we all like to know that.