Sewing machine comparison and Selection

[bcurrier]

Twern't me, but the major factors in needle deflection would be the material and needle system.

The Juki that the F. 2000 and A. 4000 is based on uses a smaller needle system. The 794 is 25% thicker and both companies rework the needle bars. Glad to hear your guide works out.

Bill

[JohnsCustomLeather]

First off thanks for the referral Andy

This is my opinion to sew heavier weight the Adler 205 is one of the beter machines.

I have a 105 and a 205 in my shop to make it more versatile. I can sew jsut about anything with the 2 machines up to an inch.

To sew heavier you need a needle and awl machine. There is no substitute for their ability we can sew easily up to over 1 1/4". But they are not easy to keep running, you have to have some experience or know someone who does. And remember to always keep you fingers out of these ones, personal experience, because the machines don't feel a thing but you sure will.

I prefer the Adler Machines for up to 3/4"

John Stumpf

John's Custom Leather

523 S. Liberty St.

Blairsville, PA 15717

714-459-6802

jrstumpf@netzero.net

www.jclleathermachinery.com

www.johnscustomleather.com

[Art]

Hi Bruce,

The 4000P is a bigger, heftier, machine than the 441, the 4000 is a 441 clone, and the 3000 is somewhat of their own design using again quite a bit of 441 parts. Some of the 441 parts fit the 4000P, almost all of the 441 parts fit the 4000; and a lot of the 441 parts fit the 3000. The 3000s I have seen have dogs whereas the 4000P doesn't, however dogs are available for the blanket feed system on the 4000 which has a needle guide (aka hole) in the dog. The 4000P is a 20688-1 made by Huigong No.3 Sewing Machine Company in Shanghai, however a lot of things around the needle/feed are different, so some modifications have been made to the base product, it also has Japanese parts in it although I don't know if it is Artisan or Huigong doing that. The 4000 and 3000 are from different casting/assembling facilities and I think Jerry has his hands a bit deeper in the process (design etc.). The 618 and 797 are Huigong also. I don't quite know the lineage of Ferdco's machines, but I suspect something quite similar.

They usually remove the feed dogs from leather machines and install a "dogless" plate to keep the dogs from marking. The lower needle guide is basically the hole in the feed dogs. If you want the lower needle guide, you can engineer one by getting the dogs for your particular machine and grinding/machining away the dog part (as your needle plate probably won't have holes for them) and installing and adjusting it. Depending on the design of the machine, you may be able to run the feed dogs low enough to not interfere with the needle plate without having to grind anything, it just depends on the design. I can't say I have ever desired that little part, there may be some time it is necessary, but I have sewn everything from tripled 15oz veg to some ridiculous webbing and Kevlar sandwiches without any skipped stitches or crashed needles. I will occasionally crash a needle on the 618 when going down a hill in thick leather, but it has a needle guide in the dogs so there is only so much deflection before you don't hit the hole...snap.

The "lower needle guide" is really the hole in the dogs and that is really there because they make the dogs as one part, so there has to be a way to get the needle through them. The idea of a LNG is to eliminate deflection in the needle feed portion of the needle stroke and hence reduce skipping of stitches. I can see this as a fine idea if stitching 3/4" of leather with a 130 needle and 138 thread except for one thing; if it is a big stitcher, you are going to have a LNG that has to be big enough to pass a 250 through with some room to spare, which means there will still be opportunity for gross needle deflection. If you use a 230 or 250 needle and 346 thread, there isn't going to be much needle deflection anyway. So, if I was getting major deflection on a production machine, I would size the hole in the LNG to fit the needle, but then again, isn't that why we use a medium/light duty machine to do medium/light duty work?

Art

I started out with an Adler 205-64 when I upgraded from the Boss. It was a great machine, but had a couple drawbacks. It didn't have needle guide or center presser foot. It had a feed dog underneath that came up through the throatplate. The hole in the feed dog was fairly small. If I got much deflection with heavy leather (like reusing holes sometimes, or sewing tunnel loops onto back cinches), the needle would miss the hole and hit the feed dog. Then I for sure snapped the needle, and on occasion broke or bent the feed dog. Finally got a heavy duty feed dog that just snapped the needle.

I now have a two year old Pro 2000, and a Juki 2000 when Ferdco was still using the original Juki frames. They have the bigger hole in the bottom (diamond shaped). I am with Ed, not sure how much that helps, but the center presser foot dang sure keeps the needle from deflecting much, and my backside lines are straight. I have not snapped a needle in either 2000 yet. Curiosity question for the other 441 clone owners. I have never seen the underneath of any but mine. What kind of feed dog do they have? Also for the different Artisan 4000 models, I know the head is lighter in one of the 4000s, is the feed the same in both of them and the 3000?

[bcurrier]

The 4000P is a bigger, heftier, machine than the 441 ... The 4000P is a 20688-1 made by Huigong No.3 Sewing Machine Company in Shanghai, however a lot of things around the needle/feed are different, so some modifications have been made to the base product, it also has Japanese parts in it although I don't know if it is Artisan or Huigong doing that. ...

Great post, Art. Shanghai Huigong #3 owns the Highlead name. You can see this machine here - note that it does use the 794 needle system (DYx3).

http://www.friedlandersewing.com/highlead/...es/ga2688-1.php

I would love to know which factory(ies) Artisan sources the 4000R and 3000 from.

Bill

[JohnsCustomLeather]

Wouldn't we all like to know that.

[ryan]

Here's my two cents; your probably aren't going to find a machine that'll do 3 oz to 20 oz. Everyones going to tell you theirs can though! I have an Adler 205 and love it. Yeah they're $5500 and yeah my monthly payment gobbles up most of my profits (at least for the next 24 months LOL). My opinion is if you're serious about leather work, buy a good machine and save yourself the heartache. It's tempting to pay less but you get what you pay for. I am not bad mouthing any of the machines you're interested in as I haven't run any of them. I will say this, if you buy an Adler from Vernon at Weaver; you won't look back. You'll have another couple hundred into accessories but you'll have a machine that will out live you. As for the deerskin; I hate to tell ya but you're better off having two machines. You don't want to have to keep switching tensions and stuff all the time and you don't want all the wear and tear sewing little things on a heavy duty machine. The good news is you can get into a Singer 111w like mine for under $500 and they sew great. Yeah I know this puts you at about three times what you want to spend but it's all about how serious you are. If you are interested, I could put you in touch with a guy in SD who rebuilds machines and usually has some good needle and awl machines for sale and usually some flatbeds.

Ryan

[esantoro]

Twern't me, but the major factors in needle deflection would be the material and needle system.

The Juki that the F. 2000 and A. 4000 is based on uses a smaller needle system. The 794 is 25% thicker and both companies rework the needle bars. Glad to hear your guide works out.

Bill

Bill,

Do you know what of the needle bar is reworked? Would it be only length?

Ah, you were saying that both ferdco and artisan had reworked the original Juki needle bar, which wold be needed for a different needle system.

ed

[bcurrier]

Bill,

Do you know what of the needle bar is reworked? Would it be only length?

Ah, you were saying that both ferdco and artisan had reworked the original Juki needle bar, which wold be needed for a different needle system.

It's actually pretty hard to nail down the details. Companies like Artisan and Ferdco don't want to give out too much information to competitors (though they can reverse engineer the differences for themselves anyway). I've seen Juki 441 specs that differ on the details also - including some that specify the 794 as well as other different needle systems. There's actually nothing very suprising about that. Most suppliers can supply almost any head type with almost any needle system, within design reason, of course.

Bill

[realmontanan]

I've been ( because I'm a snot nosed beginner) having a bit of a hard time choosing between the Artisan 1797 AB LTHR, and the Artisan 3000........ No saddles but lots of other things and it seems as though neither machine fits right in the ol' zone............ any comments?

Most appreieated,

Colin Paterson

[Art]

Hi Colin,

In between is the 618 SC-1 which I also have. The 797 is a lot faster and lighter machine than the 618 or the 3000. How about telling us what you want to sew so we can recommend what to look at. First thing you need to think about is if you sew anything that will be a real PIA on a flat bed.

Art

I've been ( because I'm a snot nosed beginner) having a bit of a hard time choosing between the Artisan 1797 AB LTHR, and the Artisan 3000........ No saddles but lots of other things and it seems as though neither machine fits right in the ol' zone............ any comments?

Most appreieated,

Colin Paterson