How to tell the difference between a broken tree and a spring or flex tree?

[Curbstrap2]

I have a question for you experienced saddlers.

Here are some links of a Aussie saddle I won on Ebay:

http://i9.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/11/cd/db7...

http://i7.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/11/ce/919...

http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/11/d0/1e...

http://i10.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/11/d0/a6...

I did the usual tests to check for a broken tree and it does flex about 2 inches where the crease in the seat is.

It also flexes/ wiggles from side to side if I grab the poleys (knee pads) and cantle and twist it.

It does not make noise or creak when I do this. I can feel a bump in the underpanels under where the seat crease is. This saddle doesn't have the normal flocking found in other Aussie saddles, but now has fleece.

I can tell its been worked on. It has mismatched hardware etc.

I think it has a broken tree, but cant be sure. I could drive it out to a saddler, but that will cost me in gas close to the purchase price of the saddle.

So, my question to you all is:

How do you tell the difference between a broken tree and a flex/spring tree?

Any insight you can provide is appreciated. Thanks!

[barra]

Curbstrap. Leave it with me. i'll gather up some info to assist you.

it's 5am and the eyes aren't focusing yet. Your pics are sending me mixed messages. Does the saddle have any identifying makers mark.brand?

Barra

[Curbstrap2]

Curbstrap. Leave it with me. i'll gather up some info to assist you.

it's 5am and the eyes aren't focusing yet. Your pics are sending me mixed messages. Does the saddle have any identifying makers mark.brand?

Barra

Hi - Thanks for your reply. The saddle does not have a makers mark on it, unfortuantely...

[barra]

Curbstrap. A few more q's for you.

1. Whereabouts are you

2. I you look closely where the fleece lining is stitched onto the panel can you see any other coloured fabric.

The most common cause of a broken tree is if a horse has rolled with the saddle on. this may be also indicated by score marks and gouges on the seat/poley pads. Spring trees are not common in "Australian" stock saddles like they are in English saddles. I am 99 % convinced this saddle is of Asian manufacture but a few things have me guessing.

The asian indicators

saddle staples not brass

leather used in the seat and poley covers.

style of stirrup leathers used

What has me guessing at now 6am is it appears to have been counterlined with the fleece over the original lining. Does any one counterline outside Australia??? Maybe after my 3rd coffee my eyes will focus on your pics more. Big screen and not the laptop in the semi dark might also help.

Barra

[barra]

Bare with me. My camera flash won't play the game so these pics were taken under a lamp.

The pic on the left is an old Australian stock saddle tree and the one on the right is an English spring tree. Both are similar in many respects. Note there are no spring steel bands on the Aussie tree.

More to follow.

Barra

Edited October 18, 2008 by barra

[Curbstrap2]

Curbstrap. A few more q's for you.

1. Whereabouts are you

2. I you look closely where the fleece lining is stitched onto the panel can you see any other coloured fabric.

The most common cause of a broken tree is if a horse has rolled with the saddle on. this may be also indicated by score marks and gouges on the seat/poley pads. Spring trees are not common in "Australian" stock saddles like they are in English saddles. I am 99 % convinced this saddle is of Asian manufacture but a few things have me guessing.

The asian indicators

saddle staples not brass

leather used in the seat and poley covers.

style of stirrup leathers used

What has me guessing at now 6am is it appears to have been counterlined with the fleece over the original lining. Does any one counterline outside Australia??? Maybe after my 3rd coffee my eyes will focus on your pics more. Big screen and not the laptop in the semi dark might also help.

Barra

1) I'm in the USA, east coast

2) The panels under the fleece are black, but they don't have the normal flocking inside. They can't be awled. The best I can describe the material is like a dense molded or extruded foam. Weird stuff.

The lining in the gullet is a dark navy. So thats different.

3) I'm not familiar with the term "asain indicators?" . What does that mean?

4) The other thing that has me guessing is that the D-rings are like D - rings you would see on an English saddle. Plus the hardware on the pommel has be changed and reset lower.

[barra]

Next. I just saw your reply. When I say Asian indicators I mean normal tell tale signs it was made in Asia (or the sub continent in India/pakistan) which most Australian style saddles on the US market are.

OK, these pics.

Can you see the cantle on the English tree?. It is a fixed and integral part of the tree. The desired shape of the cantle in both and English and Australian saddle is then built up by the saddler out of leather. These are called the bellies. On the Australian saddles these are far more prominant. On the Australian saddle pic you should be able to see what I suppose appears to be the cantle but is in fact the old bellies. Look just behind this and you should be able to just see what is really the cantle. I just placed the bellies here for illustration purposes.

One more pic to come.

Barra

Edited October 18, 2008 by barra

[barra]

Last pic.

Here I have placed the bellies back onto the cantle. The saddler then tacks them in place. If you can see lots of little dots, this is where the old tacks used to be.

When you say you have 2" of movement then something is adrift. It could be a broken tree or it could be just the bellies have come loose.

Place one hand on the cantle and the other hand behind the cantle. Move the hand on top back and forth and you are more than likely getting the movement you describe. If you feel that nothing is moving away from the hand that you placed behind the cantle, then more than likely the bellies have come adrift. If everything appears to be moving then the tree is busted.

When you say you also have side ways flexion. I am leaning toward a broken tree and the saddle is done.

Barra

Edited October 18, 2008 by barra

[Curbstrap2]

Next. I just saw your reply. When I say Asian indicators I mean normal tell tale signs it was made in Asia (or the sub continent in India/pakistan) which most Australian style saddles on the US market are.

OK, these pics.

Can you see the cantle on the English tree?. It is a fixed and integral part of the tree. The desired shape of the cantle in both and English and Australian saddle is then built up by the saddler out of leather. These are called the bellies. On the Australian saddles these are far more prominant. On the Australian saddle pic you should be able to see what I suppose appears to be the cantle but is in fact the old bellies. Look just behind this and you should be able to just see what is really the cantle. I just placed the bellies here for illustration purposes.

One more pic to come.

Barra

Yes, I see the difference. The other thing I noticed is that when I compare it to my other Aussie saddle (Bates) this one is much lighter. I will check in later. Time to feed and do chores....I'll get back here as soon as I can. Thanks for your help with this.

[barra]

Ok, I'm on the big screen and I'm caffiened up.

Another sign it is Indian/Pakistani is the leather on the flap. See how it has little dimples (sort of like you would see on pig skin). This is common on these saddles. Remember cows are sacred so who knows what they use. Water buffalo maybe?????

[Curbstrap2]

Ok, I'm on the big screen and I'm caffiened up.

Another sign it is Indian/Pakistani is the leather on the flap. See how it has little dimples (sort of like you would see on pig skin). This is common on these saddles. Remember cows are sacred so who knows what they use. Water buffalo maybe?????

Yes, I agree with you. Funny thing is that it doesn't have that Made in India "smell".

I spoke to the seller and it turns out she bought it at an estate sale. No info, no history and she is not a rider and has no idea about saddles at all. Fortunately ,she said she would take it back if the tree is broken.

I think it is. I am going to take it to a local saddler just to be sure.

[barra]

They will be able to easily tell if it is in fact broken.

Barra

[Curbstrap2]

They will be able to easily tell if it is in fact broken.

Barra

Thanks again for your help with the 'investigation'. I'll let you know what the final outcome. Even if it turns out the the tree is not broken, I won't keep it. I won't have an Asian made saddle in the barn!!!

[Traveller]

Hi Curbstrap2,

I did a lot of research into Aussie saddles a few years ago and it turns out that there are only a few good, production-line brands, along with any number of small, independent makers (some of which are on this forum), and all of them proudly display their names.

The good production lines I discovered include Syd Hill and Toowoomba (which, if I understand correctly, are now the same company), Trevor James and Porter Saddles. (If anyone knows of any other good Australian saddle production lines, I'd love to add to my very short list!)

Most of the Aussie saddles that make it to North America are the Asian-made ones, and they give Aussie saddles a bad name. They don't fit well, they don't last long, and they're uncomfortable to sit in.

My guess would be that, without a prominent saddle maker's mark, your saddle almost certainly came from Asia. And with the big movement you're getting out of the tree, even if it isn't broken, I personally wouldn't put it on a horse.

It sounds like the seller is a good person for offering to take it back!

[Curbstrap2]

Hi Curbstrap2,

I did a lot of research into Aussie saddles a few years ago and it turns out that there are only a few good, production-line brands, along with any number of small, independent makers (some of which are on this forum), and all of them proudly display their names.

The good production lines I discovered include Syd Hill and Toowoomba (which, if I understand correctly, are now the same company), Trevor James and Porter Saddles. (If anyone knows of any other good Australian saddle production lines, I'd love to add to my very short list!)

Most of the Aussie saddles that make it to North America are the Asian-made ones, and they give Aussie saddles a bad name. They don't fit well, they don't last long, and they're uncomfortable to sit in.

My guess would be that, without a prominent saddle maker's mark, your saddle almost certainly came from Asia. And with the big movement you're getting out of the tree, even if it isn't broken, I personally wouldn't put it on a horse.

It sounds like the seller is a good person for offering to take it back!

Hi - Thanks for your input. I bought this one off of EBay because I was looking for paddock slammer. Something to break colts with and not have to use one of my good saddles. I got this one cheap, but I won't use it or keep it at this point. I have a beautiful Australian made Stock saddle from Bates. It's a shame this one didn't work out because I wouldn't have a heart attack if a horse went over on it. I guess my search continues....lol!