Stitching Hole Question

[betabun]

I just started leather crafting and bought 3 pro line chisels from Tandy leather. I found the holes made by 1-prong chisel is bigger than those made by 2-prong one, which makes bigger hole than 4-prong one no matter how hard the punch is. The prong spacing is the same for all three chisels (88044 series). Is this normal? I've never used chisels of other brand, so I've no idea. Please, some suggestions for good chisel brand available in the states.

Also I found stitching groover is hard to work on thin leather to make straight line. Is the groove a must? Is there any alternative that's less likely to fail?

[WyomingSlick]

When you are cutting a stitching groove in thin leather, it is usually helpful to use a firm straightedge to run the groover along instead of using the edge of the flimsy leather. The straightedge will also hold the leather in place to prevent it from wanting to bunch up in front of the cutter.

As far are your chisels go, there are these tools called files that you can use to reshape your chisels to match exactly

[silverwingit]

I have the same chisels and haven't noticed the problem. My guess is that once you have finished stitching, so long as your technique is solid, you probably won't notice the differences. If you're worried, compare your chisels to ones in stock at Tandy.

I hate stitching groovers. I can't count the pieces of leather I've ruined with one. I don't care for the idea of forcing stiches to lie in a groove. I much prefer the British stitching technique which doesn't use a groover at all. (I think the tendency in American stitching to use a groover is due to one man and one book. You know who if you've studied hand stitching leather at all.) I think that using a stitching groover is a "crutch" since it actually covers up inadequate stitching technique!

Brits have been making saddles and tack for centuries without using a stiching groover. If you want to learn how to do it properly, you need look no further than Nigel Armitage videos. Here is his definitive stitching lesson:

Nige uses Joseph Dixon pricking irons, which are used only to mark stitch holes. The diamond awl is then used to complete the hole, allowing the introduction of the two needles. Your stitching chisels will make diamond-shaped holes so you won't need the awl. You can just use the two needle saddle stitching technique that Nige so ably demonstrates.

The important thing is to learn the "dance of the needles" in which you hold the needles ~exactly~ as Nige demonstrates. You should never put the needles down! Also, you need to fully understand how the thread leaves the top of one hole and enters the bottom of the next to yield that beautiful zig-zag appearance. Conversely, if you stitch in the opposite direction, the thread will leave the bottom and enter the top of adjacent holes. You may need to watch Nige several times to get this key aspect.

Attention to a few details, like using Harness needles, a nice stitching pony or clam, the right thread and so on are down to personal choice and experience.

Hope this helps some.

Michelle

[Troy Burch]

The stitching groover depends on what your making. If you make a lot belts or items that the stitching gets rubbed alot you certainly need a groove for the thread to sit down in to avoid fraying. If the stitching is the first thing to wear out ( and it will without a groove) you won't be getting many repeat customers. I've been repairing tack and saddles for years because of frayed wornout unraveled stitching.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Troy Burch

[betabun]

I have the same chisels and haven't noticed the problem. My guess is that once you have finished stitching, so long as your technique is solid, you probably won't notice the differences. If you're worried, compare your chisels to ones in stock at Tandy.

I hate stitching groovers. I can't count the pieces of leather I've ruined with one. I don't care for the idea of forcing stiches to lie in a groove. I much prefer the British stitching technique which doesn't use a groover at all. (I think the tendency in American stitching to use a groover is due to one man and one book. You know who if you've studied hand stitching leather at all.) I think that using a stitching groover is a "crutch" since it actually covers up inadequate stitching technique!

Brits have been making saddles and tack for centuries without using a stiching groover. If you want to learn how to do it properly, you need look no further than Nigel Armitage videos. Here is his definitive stitching lesson:

Nige uses Joseph Dixon pricking irons, which are used only to mark stitch holes. The diamond awl is then used to complete the hole, allowing the introduction of the two needles. Your stitching chisels will make diamond-shaped holes so you won't need the awl. You can just use the two needle saddle stitching technique that Nige so ably demonstrates.

The important thing is to learn the "dance of the needles" in which you hold the needles ~exactly~ as Nige demonstrates. You should never put the needles down! Also, you need to fully understand how the thread leaves the top of one hole and enters the bottom of the next to yield that beautiful zig-zag appearance. Conversely, if you stitch in the opposite direction, the thread will leave the bottom and enter the top of adjacent holes. You may need to watch Nige several times to get this key aspect.

Attention to a few details, like using Harness needles, a nice stitching pony or clam, the right thread and so on are down to personal choice and experience.

Hope this helps some.

Michelle

Indeed, I didn't notice any inconsistency after stitching.

And thanks for the resource

[silverwingit]

Troy, that's one perspective, largely an American one, popularized by Al Stohlman.

Nigel charges the equivalent of several hundred dollars for a hand-stitched belt made in the time-honored British style -- with no stitch groove. The only time he uses a stitch groover is when the stitch line is to be hidden, as between two layers. Brits have been doing it that way for a long time, long before Al Stohlman came along (no disrespect to Al; he's one of my heroes).

Just a different perspective.

Michelle

[WyomingSlick]

Troy, that's one perspective, largely an American one, popularized by Al Stohlman.

Nigel charges the equivalent of several hundred dollars for a hand-stitched belt made in the time-honored British style -- with no stitch groove. The only time he uses a stitch groover is when the stitch line is to be hidden, as between two layers. Brits have been doing it that way for a long time, long before Al Stohlman came along (no disrespect to Al; he's one of my heroes).

Just a different perspective.

Michelle

I don't know where you got the notion that Al Stohlman was resposnsible for people using stitching groovers. Saddler compasses and racers have been around since way before Al was even born. At one time, much of the world moved, and traveled by horsepower, and harness and saddle making was a very important part of what made the world run. And yes, early on, it was figured out that stitching that was recessed into a groove lasted a lot longer than stitching that lay on the surface. This was especially true on "working" leather items. This would not only include harness and saddlery items but also such things as luggage, traveling salesman cases, work belts, etc. It is just that simple......recessed stitching lasts longer than stitching that isn't !

And what is so wonderful about that ......"beautiful zig-zag appearance" anyway? I notice that often such ziggy zags are produced by people who are using too big of an awl for their thread to start with.

I myself stitch so as to put the zigzag on the inside to hide it, while the outsid is set into a groove for longevity and performance.

Here is my wallet which has been down a rough road or two ! Even with all the abuse it has suffered, it is still being held together by the stitching even though the leather is completely worn away at the fold. That is what I am talking about !

[Troy Burch]

Troy, that's one perspective, largely an American one, popularized by Al Stohlman.

Nigel charges the equivalent of several hundred dollars for a hand-stitched belt made in the time-honored British style -- with no stitch groove. The only time he uses a stitch groover is when the stitch line is to be hidden, as between two layers. Brits have been doing it that way for a long time, long before Al Stohlman came along (no disrespect to Al; he's one of my heroes).

Just a different perspective.

Michelle

Michelle, I guess it's a matter of who your customers are. Mine are almost all working ranch cowboys and team ropers who put lots of wear and tear on there equipment 4 or 5 days a week working, practiceing, competeing, sweating, etc. If the stitching sits on top of the leather it gets rubbed a lot and frays and comes apart over time, this really upsets these fellows. They expect the leather to wear out before the workmanship. I learned this the hard way when they quit coming back to me and went elsewhere. Lucky for me my brothers and nephews let me in on the problem and I started grooving and eventually got my customers back. I repaired a 1954 championship saddle for a Mr. Moss ( he was inducted into the National Rodeo Association hall of fame in 2010) and the stitching was still in good shape sitting down in the grooves. I'm not saying British style is wrong or not pretty, I'm saying different styles for different uses. I was just giving Betabun my experience on the matter. Happy tooling, Troy By the way Al is one of my heroes too, maybe he taught it for the same reason.

[betabun]

Michelle, I guess it's a matter of who your customers are. Mine are almost all working ranch cowboys and team ropers who put lots of wear and tear on there equipment 4 or 5 days a week working, practiceing, competeing, sweating, etc. If the stitching sits on top of the leather it gets rubbed a lot and frays and comes apart over time, this really upsets these fellows. They expect the leather to wear out before the workmanship. I learned this the hard way when they quit coming back to me and went elsewhere. Lucky for me my brothers and nephews let me in on the problem and I started grooving and eventually got my customers back. I repaired a 1954 championship saddle for a Mr. Moss ( he was inducted into the National Rodeo Association hall of fame in 2010) and the stitching was still in good shape sitting down in the grooves. I'm not saying British style is wrong or not pretty, I'm saying different styles for different uses. I was just giving Betabun my experience on the matter. Happy tooling, Troy By the way Al is one of my heroes too, maybe he taught it for the same reason.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It really offered some insight.

[silverwingit]

Thanks for your replies, gents. I understand your points and respect your experience. I am just presenting a different perspective without claiming it's the only one.

Michelle

[Macca]

We don't have cowboys over here, so no need for that chunky, grooved stitching you folks go for

Wonder what those guys would make of the 16 or 17 SPI tack that is done over here

[Troy Burch]

We don't have cowboys over here, so no need for that chunky, grooved stitching you folks go for

Wonder what those guys would make of the 16 or 17 SPI tack that is done over here

Lol, probably just snicker and walk on by wondering what kind of parade saddle that was.

[ramrod]

c'mon wyomingslick! you're a leather worker and you have a wallet that looks like that! lol. lol. i should talk. i bought a twelve dollar cheapie that last time i needed one. gonna fix that next time.

[WyomingSlick]

We don't have cowboys over here, so no need for that chunky, grooved stitching you folks go for

Wonder what those guys would make of the 16 or 17 SPI tack that is done over here

Maybe you could post some pics of that 16 or 17 SPI tack you are talking about, because when I looked at pics I Googled of english tack , I didn't find any examples of anything near than fine of stitching.

The thing is that anytime you are punching a bunch of holes in leather, you are essentially weakening it, and it will tear easier than solid leather.....just as a piece of perforated paper will tear easier than non-perforated paper. And the more holes you have. the weaker it will be. And the bigger the holes are, the weaker it will be. So, there is a point for any leather article where the finer the stitching is, the weaker the product will be. Of course, that is of little concern with dress belts, checkbooks, wallets, etc., but when it comes to horse tack like saddles, bridles, harnesses, etc., it becomes very important.

You weren't talking about tack for toy horses were you?

[WyomingSlick]

c'mon wyomingslick! you're a leather worker and you have a wallet that looks like that! lol. lol. i should talk. i bought a twelve dollar cheapie that last time i needed one. gonna fix that next time.

LOL It is on the list of things to do.........a list that seems to get longer every day. And a list that seems to have a great many things of more importance since the wallet is still funtioning more or less. For example, I just finished installing a quick change gear box on my small Logan metal lathe and the next project is rebuilding the pump for my high pressure power washer. Leatherwork usually is something to do inside... when it's zero outside.