Questions About Cutting Dies

[barehandcustoms]

Few questions regarding cutting dies.....

When did you feel it was worth minimizing material wastage and the time saved to invest in good quality cutting dies?

Is it okay to just hammer the dies instead buying a clicker press?

What is the normal process to get a custom cutting die made? *how are designs submitted etc*

What are some common mistakes to avoid when getting several cutting dies made from your old cutting templates?

[Cobra Steve]

Hello. Please call Heather at Texas Custom Dies. She has can help you. Her banner ad is on this page. Steve

[barehandcustoms]

If I do go that route then they will definitely get my business for several reasons.

[JLSleather]

A quick "google" for clicker dies leather" will get you a good list. I personally don't use 'em, cuz

1.) I'm very tight. Even I don't like to hang around with me when the bill comes.

2.) For small items, I can quickly use a combination of punches and knives to chop out what I need, which is often 1-of or 3-of a kind.

3.) For larger items, they arent production runs, eliminating the common sense in building a die.

When reading this post, keep in mind ..

1.) A paid ad (anywhere) does not make any one company better or worse than another.

2.) I was a tool n die maker for a good while -- I do understand dies and the reasoning behind them.

3.) It seems most of the makers charge by the linear inch (usually meaning perimeter), adding for punches.

When ordering, keep in mind ..

1.) A round punch doesn't care which way it's turned, but an oval or slot punch needs something to keep it from rotating (indexing).

2.) It should be a simple matter to include "dead" punches or the equivalent. Meaning, say a fella had a die to cut the end of a belt, punch the buckle end holes all in one shot. This could save time / money - but much advantage gained by having two "punches" that dont punch, but are outside the cutting area (locates the edge of the belt for alignment).

There's more, but this is a start. Personally, I'd send a CAD file, so there's no room for misunderstanding what I wanted. The down side of that is, if the file is wrong, only yourself to blame if the die is wrong

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

My opinion on dies is about the opposite of JLS's. I bought my first dies maybe 3 years into business, about 20 years ago. I didn't have a clicker then, just my dad's shop press. I used his press for maybe 3-4 years before I bought my own. Even though I have a clicker now, I wouldn't give up my press for anything. I still use it if I have only one part to cut with a die, instead of starting up the clicker for just that one thing, plus many, many other jobs in the shop. As far as what point do you decide it makes sense to get them, it makes sense to buy dies if you are making many items exactly the same and you're tired of cutting by hand, or you need to speed up the process so you can get more done. Even custom saddles take parts that are greatly simplified in cutting with a die, such as catchers and rosettes. Yes you can buy them relatively cheaply, but they might not match the color of the leather you're using. I'd hate to think of building a harness now without dies, although I did build a few where I cut the wear leathers by hand. On a set of 3-strap breeching harness, there are 16 1-1/8" wear leathers, and I have no desire to cut those tedious little buggers by hand. My hands would be a lot less arthritic today if I'd invested in more dies sooner than I did. It wasn't so much about utilizing scrap, although that alone may sometimes make it worth it, as it was needing to speed up a process and needing uniformity in the parts. I have over a hundred dies, and yes they are expensive, but so is time and I wish I had a hundred more. I've gotten quite a few of my dies used. Some of them aren't perfectly symmetrical, but I've gotten manufactured saddle and harness parts that are cut from a die that wasn't symmetrical either. I've gotten dies from Big Sky--I think they've sold out now. The original owner I liked. He sold out to some folks who kept the name. I had some dies made at that point and the quality was good, but the woman I dealt with was a bitch. I had some made by Texas Custom. They were a lighter made die, but they're holding up fine. The customer service was fine for me. I have some Viking dies, out of Canada I believe, and the die quality is fine, some of the patterns I don't care for, as they were used and not from my patterns. Some of the old dies were made as mallet dies and were really well made and heavy, I supposed maybe what you'd call a forged die. If you're not ready to invest in a clicker just yet, buy a regular shop press. I think I gave $250 for mine and it doesn't owe me a dime. You'll find many, many uses for it. There's no way I'd go back to cutting everything by hand, but it may depend on the nature of your work. If everything you make is a one-off, not much point in buying dies.

[JLSleather]

My opinion on dies is about the opposite of JLS's..... If everything you make is a one-off, not much point in buying dies.

That's not the opposite of what i said .. that's exactly what I said Only exception to that around here would be men's wallets, and I cut them by hand so fast you'd think I was automated A side turns into 70 (ish) of 'em so fast the dust can't settle on the hide.

[DavidL]

Also add that hand cutting as exact as a clicker requires 2 years to master where you can cut a pattern in 20 seconds and not mess up once.

One thing to look out for if the company doesnt have a manufacturer warranty, return policy or the website looks outdate you may want to skip on the company.

The website doesnt say anything about the steel used or the manufacturing process that is also a red flag. For something this exact and important you want to research as many companies as possible.

Tippmann and dixon are the ones that look to have the best dies but I can't say first hand.

That's not the opposite of what i said .. that's exactly what I said Only exception to that around here would be men's wallets, and I cut them by hand so fast you'd think I was automated A side turns into 70 (ish) of 'em so fast the dust can't settle on the hide.

Whats your technique? For larger things like bags I want to cut them by hand but I'm having difficulty with curved corners and with the corners creating a lip because it sticks to the knife.

[JLSleather]

Not sure what a "lip" is, but the sqare and rectangular little thingies can be cut with a strap cutter. Put a straight edge on the hide - full length. Strip entire hide (or majority of it) at 3.375" wide. Take the strips - and a 25¢ utility knife blade - and slice them at 90° at 9.25". You could use a square, but I just use a small template the right length.

Longest part of the operation is checkin the hide for the 'good' spot to make the straight edge. I usually buy backs, which already have the straight edge whree the belly used to be. But when I get sides, I hack the entire belly, which becomes then belt LINING (no carving, and gluin n stitchin' minimizes stretch).

OH. almost forgot...

For large radii (radiuses?) I use a pointed x-acto knife, turns jus fine.

For tighter curves, I use a punch in the inside turns, then cut from the circle hole.

Edited August 19, 2014 by JLSleather

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

JLS you took one sentence out of my whole post and made it sound like my whole post was about that. It wasn't. . . that was more of an exception to my theory on dies, which I felt was kind of opposite of what you wrote. Maybe I didn't read your post carefully enough, as I'm grilling T-bones as I type. It comes down to what any given individual is making. I build harness and saddles. If you want to cut wear leathers by hand, be my guest. Not one customer I've had in 23 years would pay a dime extra for hand cut wear leathers and to be honest I doubt even you could cut 16 of them to look perfectly symmetrical. Doing this leatherwork for a living comes down to this: whoever can make the best product for the money gets the customer. Dies speed up production, therefore I can get more done in a day and move on to the next project and make more money which means I can eat steak instead of peanut butter. If cutting multiples of the same thing by hand works for you, more power to you. It sure doesn't work for me.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Big Sioux Saddlery

[DavidL]

Great info. The lip is that little bit of leather when you cut past the edge that pulls a little instead of cutting. It only happens with chrome tan leathers or soft temper vegtan.

[billybopp]

T-bones on the grill?? I'll be right over!

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Billybopp you're welcome to come. They're big thick juicy ones to boot!

[JLSleather]

JLS you took one sentence out of my whole post and made it sound like my whole post was about that. It wasn't. . . that was more of an exception to my theory on dies, which I felt was kind of opposite of what you wrote. Maybe I didn't read your post carefully enough, as I'm grilling T-bones as I type. It comes down to what any given individual is making. I build harness and saddles. If you want to cut wear leathers by hand, be my guest. Not one customer I've had in 23 years would pay a dime extra for hand cut wear leathers and to be honest I doubt even you could cut 16 of them to look perfectly symmetrical. Doing this leatherwork for a living comes down to this: whoever can make the best product for the money gets the customer. Dies speed up production, therefore I can get more done in a day and move on to the next project and make more money which means I can eat steak instead of peanut butter. If cutting multiples of the same thing by hand works for you, more power to you. It sure doesn't work for me.

BS - Don't think I'm gonna argue this one, since I'm agreeing with you (again). If I had cause to cut 16 of something that need to match, and next month cut 16 more, etc. I'd likely order the die. And I don't make "rosettes" ... the person looking for me to cut ONE of those out is waitin' for a REALLY cold day

I like steak, but even more I like doing what I want, when I want to. Just yesterday I had a guy get a bit "uppity" about the scheduling on his carved belt, so I cut it in half and gave him the pieces. Who knows, might work for two carved dog collars? I don't have time for people who get the idea i work for them.

Great info. The lip is that little bit of leather when you cut past the edge that pulls a little instead of cutting. It only happens with chrome tan leathers or soft temper vegtan.

Oh, I thought that was a 'nub'

You answered your own question, really. Firm leather will eliminate most of that, and a SHARP blade takes care of the rest. I used to sharpen stuff (including dies), but time-wise I find it expedient to pitch a blade, pop in a new one, and go.

As far as the initial thing goes about dies, I've designed a good few in my day. You may have seen some of the results of my younger days work if you have appliances that say "Electrolux", or farm equipment that says "Sudenga", or ever seen the handicapped vehicles made by Ranger (the electric ones).

Edited August 19, 2014 by JLSleather

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

JLS I didn't mean to start an argument, I guess I just mis-interpreted your post. I don't know if you're doing leather for a living or if you've another source of regular income, which I don't have. So in reality, yes I work for me, but I really work for whoever brings me work. If I handed my customer the two halves of his project because I didn't like his attitude, I might have to start eating peanut butter instead of steak. Bad press gets around much faster than good press, and I stand up for myself, but sometimes I gotta kiss a little ass. Cutting a guy's belt in half doesn't fall in that category. But you do what you want in your shop, I do what I want, (or have to in order to make a living) in mine.

Sooo. . . ya'll have a good evening, I think I've enjoyed as much of this post as I can handle in one night.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Big Sioux Saddlery

[barehandcustoms]

Good information so far and thanks to everyone for your replies.

I was going to use Weaver or Texas Dies because of a referral from someone who literally has a wall full of dies made by both companies. Sorry you had a bad experience with Texas Custom Dies. I was probably dreaming when I thought I could get by without buying the clicker press. It looks like every template will be around 1sq foot in size.

I have noticed my hands getting very sore in the mornings after long nights in the shop. I think most of that comes from the cutting process since that seems to be when I feel them cramping up. Luckily I am a network administrator and they get to rest for most of the day other than pounding on a keyboard. I'm only 28 but it seems my hands are getting stiffer on me already.

[Sylvia]

Whats your technique? For larger things like bags I want to cut them by hand but I'm having difficulty with curved corners and with the corners creating a lip because it sticks to the knife.

I found this set of templates for wood workers, inside and outside corners in different radius'

http://www.rockler.com/quick-corners-set

[DavidL]

Il keep that in mind thanks.