Why Did This Happen?

[BHPshooter]

I attempted to make my first two-tone holster recently, and I'm not sure why it turned out like this.

My construction process has always been to glue, stitch, mold, then dye and finish, but two-tone finishes are impossible that way. This is the first time that I have dyed the pieces first, and then glued, stitched, etc.

When I got the holster wet to do the molding, it darkened. I expected that to happen, but what I didn't expect is that it didn't completely lighten when it dried. The "wings" sort of returned to the proper shade, but the pocket didn't...

For those of you who dye the leather before molding, is this normal? Or is it something particular to that color, maybe? The mouth reinforcement piece is Angelus Pro Oil Black, and the body is Fiebing's Pro Oil Saddle Tan.

Luckily, this holster is for me. It's still functional, and I can live with the blemish... but I really want to figure this out before I offer two-tone finishes to customers.

If anyone can offer any help, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Wes

[BHPshooter]

The Resolene actually seems to have made it look a little bit better. This is what it looked like before the resolene:

This is the kind of result I usually get from this color (center):

[Abram]

It is hard to say. I make two tone holster and dye them before I stitch them together. I have had them do that and I use Alcohol based dyes so I don't think it is the dye. I attributed it to the leather and stretching the fibers but I have only had on holster do that so my experience is limited. If you have any of that leather levft over you might take some small pieces and conduct a test to try and ron out the cause.

[Steven Kelley]

I've had the same issue using Fiebing's Pro Oil brown's. The Fiebing's Pro oil will penetrate completely through the leather very quickly. The leather around the gun will stretch and/or compress during molding. It seems like the movement causes the dye discoloration, since there is so much dye in the leather. I've had much better luck using Angelus dyes. They do not penetrate as deeply, if you just give them a quick dip. Since there isn't as much dye in the leather, it does not discolor under compression/stretching. At least that's my take on the problem. I have not had any issue since switching to Angelus from Fiebing's Pro oil. I still use the pro oil for black, but nothing else.

[shtoink]

I will preface this by saying that I have very little first hand experience, so take this with the typical amount of salt. I am just tossing out an idea and it will ultimately need testing.

It is my understanding that guys that make holsters regularly and do the fading effect also have an airbrush or worked out the necessary steps to get the desired look if they don't have an airbrush. With an airbrush, you can do all your molding and shaping to your holster parts and then apply layers of dye to achieve the desired look near the end. It's doable without an airbrush, but requires a bit of planning and may involve getting your holster near the finished stages so that any molding and shaping do not interfere with the look you have going on.

I think that the airbrush method probably has the most flexibility in color blending, but each method will have a learning curve. You can do some digging around in here for airbrush specific topics dealing with holster making to see if that might be the direction you want to go. I've seen some pretty impressive stuff from both methods, so an airbrush isn't a requirement by any means. Patience, planning, and testing are, however.

If you choose to get an airbrush, Art has made several posts on a comparison between top end and import airbrushes, specifically the Veda WD 180.

I hope this helps you get on track with what you had planned. As I said earlier, this isn't first hand knowledge, but rather information that was gathered from reading thread after thread in here.

[dickf]

I've had the same issue using Fiebing's Pro Oil brown's. The Fiebing's Pro oil will penetrate completely through the leather very quickly. The leather around the gun will stretch and/or compress during molding. It seems like the movement causes the dye discoloration, since there is so much dye in the leather. I've had much better luck using Angelus dyes. They do not penetrate as deeply, if you just give them a quick dip. Since there isn't as much dye in the leather, it does not discolor under compression/stretching. At least that's my take on the problem. I have not had any issue since switching to Angelus from Fiebing's Pro oil. I still use the pro oil for black, but nothing else.

Add me to the list, too. Fiebing's Pro Oil Tan did this once, then I threw out the bottle. Angelus dyes will not do this. It's most certainly the dye, not the procedure.

[Steven Kelley]

Add me to the list, too. Fiebing's Pro Oil Tan did this once, then I threw out the bottle. Angelus dyes will not do this. It's most certainly the dye, not the procedure.

I dip dye everything, but I have had limited luck air brushing the pro oil, with just a very light coat, but still had the blotchy spots 50% of the time. The Angelus dyes are night and day better at giving an even color regardless of whether you dye first of dye after forming, at least in my experience.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Steven Kelley

[JLSleather]

I got one of these recently too. Same saddle tan dye. When it dried, the color was slightly different EVERYWHERE GLUE WAS applied. I don't know if it's the glue that caused it, but I've NEVER had that issue before. Since we both used that dye before, and now have the same issue in the same week, bad batch of dye?

I'm not subscribing to the Fiebing's dye is no good club, because I've used it for years and never had this issue.

Also not signing up for the "use an airbrush" list. I have several airbrushes, and I think I know what I'm doing with them. Still DIP dyeing has been done with these dyes for YEARS with no uneven color problems.

Not that it has anything to do with the current issue, but since it was brought up, I personally think that buying an airbrush just to "do a fade" (meaning close yer eyes and blast close to the edge) is like buying a Porsche to go get groceries.

I'll probably get away with dyeing this holster solid black.. we'll see (I really do NOT think it's the leather). Meanwhile, this is airbrush 101 (basic step 1 type). Something less than this is .. well.. something less.

Oh, in case nobody recognizes it, that rose is an old, old, old craftaid design. I don't own the craftaid, but we though the picture was nice, so... no tooling.. airbrushed Fiebing's dye ONLY.

Edited August 23, 2014 by JLSleather

[Shooter McGavin]

I have a mahogany holster right now with the same issue. I use W&C saddle skirting and dip dye in a 50% Fiebings Pro Oil/ 50% Denatured Alcohol solution. I leave in piece in the dunk for about 30 seconds then work the color in with my hands until nothing wet remains on the surface.

Saddle Tan, Light Brown, Dark Brown, and Mahogany will all do this to some degree or another.

I hate that the Angelus dye comes in such a small mouthed bottle. I have trouble getting the dauber in there without making a mess.

[BHPshooter]

Thanks very much for all of the feedback, folks. I really appreciate it.

I've had the same issue using Fiebing's Pro Oil brown's. The Fiebing's Pro oil will penetrate completely through the leather very quickly. The leather around the gun will stretch and/or compress during molding. It seems like the movement causes the dye discoloration, since there is so much dye in the leather. I've had much better luck using Angelus dyes. They do not penetrate as deeply, if you just give them a quick dip. Since there isn't as much dye in the leather, it does not discolor under compression/stretching. At least that's my take on the problem. I have not had any issue since switching to Angelus from Fiebing's Pro oil. I still use the pro oil for black, but nothing else.

Add me to the list, too. Fiebing's Pro Oil Tan did this once, then I threw out the bottle. Angelus dyes will not do this. It's most certainly the dye, not the procedure.

I dip dye everything, but I have had limited luck air brushing the pro oil, with just a very light coat, but still had the blotchy spots 50% of the time. The Angelus dyes are night and day better at giving an even color regardless of whether you dye first of dye after forming, at least in my experience.

I agree, I have had much less frustration with Angelus products. I have already switched over to Angelus dyes almost exclusively -- with the exception of this one Fiebing's dye, because I liked the color so much. However, this kind of throws a big wrench in the works. Looks like I'll be replacing that color with the Angelus equivalent.

I got one of these recently too. Same saddle tan dye. When it dried, the color was slightly different EVERYWHERE GLUE WAS applied. I don't know if it's the glue that caused it, but I've NEVER had that issue before. Since we both used that dye before, and now have the same issue in the same week, bad batch of dye?

I've had this bottle for about a year and a half, so I doubt they're from the same batch. After this mess, I dyed a couple of scraps to mess around with, and it seems to be the water that causes the discoloration. If I had to guess, the areas that are glued don't let the water penetrate the leather as readily, which might explain why those areas don't discolor as badly.

[shtoink]

I am pleased to see that others were able to chime in with more information than I was able to provide. One of the many things I really enjoy about this place. It just might take some time before the right eyes get to see it.

[JLSleather]

fter this mess, I dyed a couple of scraps to mess around with, and it seems to be the water that causes the discoloration. If I had to guess, the areas that are glued don't let the water penetrate the leather as readily, which might explain why those areas don't discolor as badly.

And now we're getting somewhere.

Edited August 24, 2014 by JLSleather

[Shooter McGavin]

Im not sure why the glue would make a difference, as it doesnt really seem to absorb into the leather.

Just for the sake of research, I built my last mahogany holster and completed all of the steps as normal until it was time to seal it up.

Cut, dip dye, dry, glue, stitch, wet form, burnish...

Then for the heck of it, I used a dauber and applied the mahogany Fiebings Pro Oil full strength to the holster.

Wait a day or so, buff, then seal.

No discoloration.

[Shooter McGavin]

ARe you guys dip dyeing with the Angelus also? I bought a few bottles to try out.

[Steven Kelley]

ARe you guys dip dyeing with the Angelus also? I bought a few bottles to try out.

Yes

[ec2121]

Im glad to see this post...this happened to me too. I used 50/50 saddle tan with denatured alcohol. I dyed first then moled. I figured that it just needed to dry out completely but it never got better. As you can see on the pic the blotches look really bad..

[ec2121]

Oops..here it is.

[oltoot]

My guess is that dye is not the culprit but that molding has produced a burnished look to the part that is molded. I would try some form of something that burnishes the area outside. I would use my glass slicker. as to observed differences in glue areas, most glues either seal up or open wide areas that end up taking a finish differently or not at all

[JLSleather]

and it seems to be the water that causes the discoloration. If I had to guess, the areas that are glued don't let the water penetrate the leather as readily, which might explain why those areas don't discolor as badly.

Actually, I was suggesting the other way around. While I agree that it's the water, I think the glued areas are retarding EVAPORATION more than penetration. Still some water in the holster when you (and I) dyed it. Not sure who decided I said it's the glue .... though it certainly was the glued areas.

[ec2121]

I agree that its the water too... I tried rubbing water around the affected areas after it was sealed thinking that it wound reduce the spots. It made it worst. Now its got me thinking that if water gets on a project after its sealed it'll ruin it permanently.

[Gump]

Water contains many minerals, and some may react with the dyes. You could try distilled water, which has no minerals or chlorine in it. Gump

[dickf]

My experience goes like this:

Dip dye a scrap piece in Fiebings Pro Oil dye (saddle color). Let dry. Blotchy. Tried 2 more times with different leather from different cuts. Same results.

It must not happen to everyone because a lot of people use the stuff, but I will say, Angelus and Lincoln dyes have NEVER done this and I've applied them to crap leather when I made the kids in the neighborhood holsters for cap guns. The holsters all came out uniform in color, as always.

[BHPshooter]

Actually, I was suggesting the other way around. While I agree that it's the water, I think the glued areas are retarding EVAPORATION more than penetration. Still some water in the holster when you (and I) dyed it. Not sure who decided I said it's the glue .... though it certainly was the glued areas.

Yes, that's what I meant -- the glued areas, not the glue itself. I understand what you mean.

My experience goes like this:

Dip dye a scrap piece in Fiebings Pro Oil dye (saddle color). Let dry. Blotchy. Tried 2 more times with different leather from different cuts. Same results.

It must not happen to everyone because a lot of people use the stuff, but I will say, Angelus and Lincoln dyes have NEVER done this and I've applied them to crap leather when I made the kids in the neighborhood holsters for cap guns. The holsters all came out uniform in color, as always.

I have yet to try Lincoln dyes (can't find anyplace that carries them), but I have had far fewer headaches since I started using Angelus dyes.

I actually ordered Angelus' Tan color to try this project again, I just haven't had the spare time to re-make the holster. I'll post the results when I get the chance.

[Splash]

I very rarely chime in on any thread since on my mind, I am still learning. I have been making holters for about 5 years. I dont dip dye, I either use a dauber or a piece of whool. I normaly use oil dyes, the only Angelus I use is their Pink dye. my process is as follow: I dye let dry and re-apply until I feel that has penetrated enough (airbrush if I am fading a two tone holster), then glue and stitch followed by wet molding. The only time I have gotten an uneven tone is when I rush something or use low quality leather (usually only for knife sheaths). after I wet mold, I let it dry for a few hrs (about 4 or 5) then I place my holster into my kydex heating oven at a ~150 Deg or so with the door not completelly closed. I do this to allow the glued portions to dry since they do not air out as the other parts of the holster. once it is out of the oven and it has cooled, I then oil the holster and let dry overnight before finishing it. for holsters I only use HO or W&C leather.

[Doc Reaper]

When did you purchase the dye? Was it shipped during the cold months? It may of gotten a bit frozen, I've had dyes happen when I lived in upstate NY.