Still Confused About Dye Bleeding.

[DavidL]

Im trying to figure out if its possible to completely stop dye bleeding on items that you hand dye yourself without using 3 coats of thin resolene. Aniline dyed leather with a chemical sealant added I have confidence that the flesh side and grain side won't bleed off, straight from the factory untouched. Drum dyed leather the dye looks like something was added to the process of the drum dying process and the process itself makes sure that the dye penetrates deep and won't bleed, again I am confident that it won't bleed in rain or sweat.

With a sample of thoroughbred latigo I rubbed it with a bit of beeswax and polished with a cloth and black dye bled onto the cloth. So, I wouldn't be 100 percent comfortable using this leather . Same goes with a piece of aniline dyed goat skin that I put it under the tap for a full minute and the excess dye came off the whole time. Also wouldn't be comfortable using it in a product. Hand dyed I'm most concerned because it will bleed the most dye.

Products like selvage jeans and shirts will bleed for a while new, but after a dip in water most of the excess comes off. With vegtan the leather after its wet gets hard and shrinks so its not ideal

from what I understand just like car clear coats and wood clear coats you need 3-4 thin coats to seal. I guess it would be the same with leather or even more because dye doesnt harden like acrylics paint on cars.

What would be the way for

1. Hand dyeing the leather and sealing with a matte finisher like bees wax and neats foot or a product I can buy (not resolene) that will make it as resistant to bleeding as the aniline dyed leather. I have aussie and atom wax with leather balm, beeswax and olive oil. Would like a product like resolene that seals leather and is matte no gloss. Maybe even a matte additive

2. It feels like I could rub a small piece of leather for an hour just to get rid of all access of dye. Would it be best to let the access sit on the dye and then airbrush 4 coats of matte sealant and the excess dye would be sealed to the leather?

[yoji]

Hi david

did you find out any information on it?

I am sourcing now white non dyed ostrich leather to dye and get the shades that i want myself.

I am also the using aniline dye (made specifically for leather) but i am sure that it will bleed out if left unprotected.

I have contacted a chemical supplier of a good tannery and the guy extremely helpful. He explained some processes which i can not achieve due to lack of proper facilities but he told me that almost all the tanneries uses a water based polyurethane as a final finish which gives superior results to acrylic which always feels like plastic.

check out the video from gucci : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCk_5-9cVCE (go to 0:16)

they are using an aniline dye; once dry they brush it and apply polyurethane finish (which they won't show you on the video)

I do not know why you don't want to use acrylic resolene but looks like polyurethane finish can work out for you if you can source it. According to my supplier who also supply acrylic finishes to the tanneries, the acrylic finish is used in between different coats like dye/pigment/basecoat to stop the polyurethane finish to get absorbed too much or to hide some blemishes on the leather.

It is a bit costly, but i am going to give it a try to see if i can achieve the colors that i am looking for.

( it is not my mother tongue sorry for my bad english)

Edited December 2, 2014 by yoji

[NVLeatherWorx]

David: What type of dye are you actually using? This makes a big difference in how things end up working. And, although Olive Oil is a natural product, it has a tendency to not allow dye pigments to set into the fibers of the leather as it is a heavy oil and saturates very quickly; I use Pure Neatsfoot Oil and Fiebing's Oil Dyes for all of my finished items. I did have a local holster maker (not a very skilled or knowledgeable one by the way) stop by my site at one of the local events and question me 20 ways to Sunday about how I finish my goods so I told him my process. He then asked me if I understood that the use of Neatsfoot Oil on the leather prior to dyeing would not permit the dye to penetrate and would allow for heavy rub-off; I asked him how he came to that conclusion and he told me that it was a common problem that he experiences. I asked him what products he used and he told me that he had started using Neatsfoot Oil and would then finish with a water-based dye or stain, that is where I stopped him. I had to ask him if he forgot all of that simple science that he was taught in school (recent College graduate he was) about how oil and water don't mix. He got offended and then wanted to start to argue the idea; I stopped him short and told him to move on and I also made it clear to him that when he was ready to learn how this trade works and how to use all of the materials and products available instead of just thinking he knew it all because he can read a book (selective word scanning is more accurate) that he could contact me and I would teach him how to make a quality leather product. In closing, I gave him one of my finished items to try and rub the dye off and he couldn't, that made him even more upset because he had just been proven to have a high lack of knowledge for what he was doing and he did this all in the presence of 7 of his friends. I actually felt kind of bad for the guy, especially when I heard one of his friends say to him as they walked away, "that guy really knows what he is doing, you might want to take him up on his offer". I haven't heard from him again but I have been contacted by some of his friends that were with him that day and made custom items for them.

[DavidL]

thats interesting about the water based polyurethane. I wanted to try to find the industry standard and I didn't think that tanneries used resolene (just to test the options)

I'm using fiebings pro. buff and finish with atom wax. The finish is somewhat tacky and smells odd.

[yoji]

Well the phone call wıh the chem. supply guy lasted almost 30 min which he willingly explained me a lot.
It was like private lesson for free..

The quality of the ostrich leather that i was getting from the tannery was superb. He told me to achive this he is using around 8 different products .

Basecoat -> dye -> aniline dye -> pigment (solvent based) -> some product with a wiered name something like karenesol or something
-> acrylic coat -> pigment again (non solvent type ) -> finally polyurethane top coat finish for protection

He also told me that sometimes he is using a cream wax and acrylic/resin based emulsion product in two stages for a different effects as a top finish.
I have ordered those creamy finishes also. So once i get my products and the undyed leather, in a week or two i will be able to post some conclusions

Edited December 2, 2014 by yoji

[DavidL]

This is great info thanks for sharing.

Is there any products he recommend for acrylic coat, both pigments and polyurethane?

[yoji]

well the acrylics that he is talking about is not the fiebling acrylic resolene of-course.

he is selling products made by Paule http://paule-chem.com, http://www.kendafarben.com and some Fenice www.fenice.it .these companies are some of the leading commercial leather chemicals manufacturers.

They have variations for each of the products (acrylic/pigments/poly). each type of leather requires different type of product (this is acording to my understanding from that phone call and than some research i have made on the net)/ Your leather chem. supplier should match the product to your needs.

If you are looking for professional grade products and not the fieblings junk (not to offend anyone) so send an email to these companies asking their distributors. Than you can move on to the smaller shops specializing in the industry. that's what worked for me..