Double Threading A Needle On Cowboy Machine?

[Divafnk]

I'm currently taking a fabric sewing class that shows that one can double thread a needle (with two spools of thread-two strands of thread going through the needle) to get a thicker looking stitch.

I'm assuming that since this can be done on your regular fabric sewing machines that I can also do this on my Cowboy? Does anyone know either way?

Thanks in advance!

[Wizcrafts]

Why not just use a larger size needle and thread to start with? My CB4500 can handle up to #415 thread. That is almost 1mm in diameter.

[Divafnk]

I've thought about that as well.

I've read several articles on the needle sizing numbers and still can't figure out what the two numbers mean at all.

[Wizcrafts]

I've thought about that as well.

I've read several articles on the needle sizing numbers and still can't figure out what the two numbers mean at all.

Thread #277 is very close to .5mm in diameter. It takes at least a #24 needle to pass that thickness freely. In practice, the hole a #24 needle makes is sometimes a bit too narrow to bring the knot from the bottom thread well up into the bottom layer. It depends on how dense the bottom leather or material happens to be. So, most of us with a 441 type machine will use a #25 needle, which definitely pokes a wide enough hole for both the top and bottom thread to move as required.

The relationship between various needles and thread is demonstrated on the needle and thread chart on the Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines website. You can use it to select the best needle for any given size of thread in common use.

[Divafnk]

Thanks for that link! Something that confuses me is the way the needle sizes are written. "12/80". What does the 12 mean, and what does the 80 mean?

[VanRhodes]

The first digits, 12 in this case is the US-size of the needle, whilst the second is the metric size, nm:80 in this case.

[Wizcrafts]

The 12/80 size needle is typical for cotton thread sewn into broadcloth, shirts and ladies skirts. A #12 needle cannot be used in normal leather work, or on a 441 type machine, like a CB3200. But, amazingly, it might be used by a Western boot maker (in a post or flat bed machine) to sew decorative patterns onto boot uppers with #33 bonded nylon thread.

Actually, the first number is not just a US designation. It was the sizing system developed by the Singer sewing machines company, more than a century ago.

A 441 type machine uses system 7x3 round point and 7x4 (794) leather point needles. The smallest size I have been able to get are #19/120. These needles are so long that the thin shank on a #19 is easily deflected and extreme caution is needed to avoid bending or breaking them. I use them to sew with #92 bonded thread, which I found to be the practical lower limit for my CB4500 and for a Cobra Class 4. Sometimes I can get #69 to sew, but it requires so many readjustments to the tensioners and check spring as to be impractical. Rather, I use other machines (patchers) for such minute thread.

[TwinOaks]

My concern with double threading is since there's only one set of tensioners...how do you assure that both threads are evenly tensioned? I can see it being quite possible for one thread to slide past the other, and leave you with loose stitches or worse...a birdnest in the hook case.

[Wizcrafts]

I cannot imagine why somebody with a machine capable of sewing with #346 or 415 bonded thread would even want to sew two #138 stitches instead. #415 thread is almost 1 mm thick. The tensile strength is almost 60 pounds per stitch. #138 thread only has 22 pounds breaking strength. Double stitched, you get two rows of 22 pounds strength. The best that can provide would be 44 pounds combined. One stitchline with #277 thread accomplishes the same strength, with less to go wrong.

[Tramps Leatherworking]

Divafnk,

Just use a larger needle and thread, even if you could somehow pull it off, what would be the purpose? As already stated, those machines will sew very heavy thread...

[Divafnk]

Divafnk,

Just use a larger needle and thread, even if you could somehow pull it off, what would be the purpose? As already stated, those machines will sew very heavy thread...

Hmm.. Maybe it seems more approachable to me than even trying to figure out what a larger sized needle is. I am still very confused on this. I don't know what range of sizes my machine can even handle. It's a Cowboy 227R. I still don't understand what the two numbers in a needle size mean, at all. I don't mean to be thick...

[billybopp]

Keep in mind ... The OP was presented the concept of two threads in a fabric sewing class. The intended audience is likely to have, on hand, small thread sizes rather than even what most leather sewers would consider small. It's most likely meant as a work around, but it may also present some interesting effects if the threads are different colors.

As for needle sizes ..Yeah. It's not so easy since there is more than one system in place.

The first number is based on the century plus old Singer system, which is more or less sequential numbers from small to large. The smallest you are likely to find is 10 or 12. The largest for my domestic machine is 19, which is about as big as domestic machines are likely to go (there may be exceptions, but I don't know). The sort of machines that leather workers are most likely to use START at around 19 and go up from there.

The second number is based on a European system, which is newer dating from 1942. It is supposed to represent the thickness of the needle in hundredths of a millimeter. So, again, the bigger the number the bigger the needle.

There have also been a number of other systems, but they are mostly no longer used, but there may be some exceptions.

Most modern needles will have both Singer and European / Metric sizes although in which order seems to depend on the manufacturer. But it's not hard to figure out. You are not likely to find a Singer designation higher than 30, nor a European designation under 60.

There are other variables, such as point type, shank type, and others .. But we'll leave those for another day.

Hope that helps

Bill

[Wizcrafts]

Hmm.. Maybe it seems more approachable to me than even trying to figure out what a larger sized needle is. I am still very confused on this. I don't know what range of sizes my machine can even handle. It's a Cowboy 227R. I still don't understand what the two numbers in a needle size mean, at all. I don't mean to be thick...

That changes things regarding the range of thread and needles you can use. We thought you had a big Cowboy CB3200, 3500, 4500, etc. Your machine is an upholstery grade walking foot machine, using a smaller size and range of needles and not capable of sewing with anything heavier than #138 on top and in the bobbin. There is a possibility that it will handle #207 on top, depending on how it was set up by the seller.

Your machine uses standard walking foot system 135x16 (leather point) and 135x17 (round point) needles. They are widely available is sizes 14 through 24. There may be some dealers who even have smaller and larger needles in this system, which is 1.75" long. Your machine is much smaller than the big "441" type most of us thought you had and our descriptions were off the mark.

You still only have one tension disk for the top thread. However, since the machine uses smaller needles, you can buy variegated thread (multi-colored) and use the appropriate needle for it.

As for needle/thread sizes, if you took a sewing class at Joann Fabrics, they mainly use domestic machines, with the exception of the long body quilters' machines, which are a step up. All of the domestic sewing machines can handle very small and soft thread. Zig-zag home machines accept a twin needle and some may even have a second tensioner on top for a second thread. Your CB227 does not have have zig-zag, cannot accept twin needles.

What needle sizes and thread sizes came with your machine? What are you sewing on the machine and what are your plans for it?

[Wizcrafts]

I neglected to mention in my last reply that the kind of thread (little spools of cotton or polyester) used in domestic sewing machines is smaller and softer than most thread used in walking foot industrial machines. It is normally sewn with needle sizes 11, 12 and 14, with 14 being the largest needle of the three. In contrast, a #14 needle is close to the smallest size usable in a walking foot machine, like the CB227R. The springs and take-up mechanism are not usually balanced for such soft, thin cotton thread, because upholsters and leather workers deal in much heavier threads.

[Divafnk]

Oh thank you very much for the explanations, that makes more sense to me now.

Te machine came with 125/20 and 110/18. I currently have size 69 thread.

At the moment, I've been making anything from leather armor, to briefcases and am getting into garments now as well (like skirts).

[Wizcrafts]

The #18 needle is the biggest you'll want to use with #69 thread. The #20 needle is for #92 bonded thread.

If you want to sew with #138 thread, get some #23 needles. Use leather point only for anything tougher than garment or light chap leather.

[Divafnk]

Thank so much for your help! I really appreciate it and it's really helped demystify the needles for me

[Divafnk]

Is there a range of needle sizes that this machine can handle? Smallest to largest? Thank you!

[Wizcrafts]

Is there a range of needle sizes that this machine can handle? Smallest to largest? Thank you!

I already answered that in one of my last replies on the first page of your topic.

"Your machine uses standard walking foot system 135x16 (leather point) and 135x17 (round point) needles. They are widely available is sizes 14 through 24."

[Divafnk]

Ok, yes. Thanks again.