Leatherwork And Crypto Currencies

[Tramps Leatherworking]

I have yet to hear ONE good reason why I would want to get involved in this versus cold hard cash --- I have absolutely zero issues with customers paying me cash money!

[TwinOaks]

Bitcoin is dead article

That is not the only one; there have been multiple 'obituaries' for Bitcoin, and all of them have been proven false as Bitcoin is still operating. If anyone wants to try it, well I'm all for innovation. This is the second time I've seen someone touting the wonders of Bitcoin, yet I'm still not moved to consider it. I can see some of the appeal of the system, but personally it feels like 'magical thinking'. There are several articles which just plainly say that 'bitcoin mining' has a negative return. It uses more value in electricity than it produces. I'll leave the speculation of it's legitimacy, speculation of it's monetary value, and acceptance of it's use to others more inclined and qualified. I see several large risks to it, some of which are cited in the article above. So, for me, it doesn't appear to be worth the risk. Ken, thank you for bringing the topic to the table; I'm just too grounded in the physical world to believe in 'magical internet money'.

I do see the comparison between bitcoin and other electronic transactions- i.e. I go to work, get paid with direct deposit, and purchase something with a debit card. The difference is that I've been in situations - post Hurricane Ivan, and post Hurricane Katrina (I lived on the Alabama coast at the time and worked several post-storm reconstruction efforts) - where there was NO electricity. A similar thing happened here in North Alabama several years ago - a line of tornadoes damaged some power grid infrastructure. In both cases, there were NO electronic transfers AT ALL......and since bitcoin is completely digital, it's really hard to hand someone a bitcoin to buy a sandwich or a bottle of water.

Plus, with multiple law enforcement agencies scrutinizing it because it's very popular for black market or other illegal transactions, I prefer to just stay away from it.

[Beaverslayer]

TwinOaks, I respect your opinions regarding Bitcoin and was very skeptical myself for quite some time.

Yes there have been some very large thefts of Bitcoins over the last year or so in the Bitcoin world, no different than there have been some very large thefts of fiat currency or major ponzi schemes. There has been some major investigations and arrests of Bitcoin people who had created and run the Silk Road 1 and 2 because of drug sales and such.

Every day of the week, and in pretty much every city on Earth, someone is being arrested for selling drugs or guns and accepting Fiat/Cash as payment, this will never change. Any currency whether it's hard cash, paper check, credit card or digital will be used by the criminals of the world.

The most important thing about Bitcoin, is the technology behind it. Unlike credit cards, Bitcoin is decentralized, there is no central computer that stores all the holders information that can be hacked/exploited. Remember the Target hack? This cannot be done with Bitcoin. Yes Bitcoins can be stolen/hacked if you do not secure them with a strong password, but your personal information will never be stolen like with Target.

Another thing is the cost of transactions, this alone will save many companies vast amounts of money each year on credit card transaction fees. For example, you sell something for $100.00 and the person pays you via credit card. If you use Square, then they will charge 2.75% of that $100.00 for the transaction. If that same person payed in Bitcoin, they would pay 0.00020000 of a Bitcoin to transfer $100.00 worth of Bitcoin to you (that is approx. $0.03 at present) Then you as the receiver want to convert that to US cold hard cash as quick as possible so you use a service like CoinBase. CoinBase will charge you 0.1% yes that is 9 points UNDER one percent to convert the Bitcoin to cold hard cash and deposit it into your bank account.

You mention Hurricane Katrina and other disasters, this brings to mind a very interesting fact. In the world today there is a bit over 7 Billion people living on Earth. Of those 7+ billion people, close to 6 Billion of them are what is classified as "Un Banked" this means they have no access to conventional banking. Bill Gates (Microsoft fame/worlds riches man) is highly involved with M-Pesa which is a "Digital Currency" in Africa. M-Pesa is exactly the same as Bitcoin and every African that uses it, does so with a cell phone.

Bitcoin can and does get used every day throughout the entire world by people using their cell phones as the means to pay with Bitcoin. I buy coffee and donuts every day with Bitcoin at a local coffee shop, they also have a Bitcoin ATM in their lobby. During any disaster, as long as you have a smart phone and the battery has juice in it, you will be able to use Bitcoins.

The person/people who created Bitcoin did so because of the vast amount of people who are unbanked in the world and because of the way the world governments can just do what they want with fiat currency. Look at what happened in Zimbabwe (here's a good article on that fiasco http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703730804576314953091790360 ). This is the main reason governments are so afraid of Bitcoin, but most are starting to accept the fact that Bitcoin is viable and is needed.

The Royal Bank of Canada (Canada's largest bank) is currently working on using the Bitcoin technology to eliminate the paper check here in Canada. What this will do once it is implemented is, there will be no more "Bouncing" checks and no more "Forged" checks. It's impossible to "Forge" a Bitcoin, just can't be done. There is no such thing as a counterfeit Bitcoin....just can't be done.

One more interesting thing regarding Bitcoin compared to Fiat currencies. Back in 2013 I believe, in the country of Cypress. The government was in dire straights and in need of billions of dollars to secure EU debt financing. What the government did there, was they closed down ALL the banks and then TOOK ALL the money that was on deposit at the countries second largest bank...just took it without any recourse to the people who owned the money. If the government decided to do something like this here where we live (highly unlikely but possible) and you held your money in Bitcoin, it would not matter if they closed the banks and took all the fiat currency.

On the internet as well as in many main stream media publications, you are going to find stories saying how bad and dangerous Bitcoin is, you will also find stories about how great and useful it is as well, no different than all the media and differing opinions on the Keystone XL pipeline and Alberta Oil Sands oil. It's very important to research anything whether it be Bitcoin, a new pipeline or which leather sewing machine you will need to do the job. My whole intention here is not to promote everyone into becoming a Libertarian and denounce fiat currency and take up Bitcoin, my intention is to bring to the leather community another viable means of gaining a larger market for their leather work.

[TwinOaks]

During any disaster, as long as you have a smart phone and the battery has juice in it, you will be able to use Bitcoins.

My whole intention here is not to promote everyone into becoming a Libertarian and denounce fiat currency and take up Bitcoin, my intention is to bring to the leather community another viable means of gaining a larger market for their leather work.

Just an interesting note on the first piece quoted- One of the tornadoes damaged the high tension power lines from Browns Ferry NPP....it safely SCRAMed, but that also left the whole area with no power. After 24-36 hrs, the batttery backups for all the cell towers started failing, which meant that any comms that weren't 'peer to peer', were useless. The phones themselves were working, but the towers to which they connected weren't....so, no calls. Even land lines are run through electronic multiplexers these days, not hard wired back to the central office. That left only two comm types for this area - satellite, and (HAM) radio. The sat comms might be a viable transaction method, provided the other end of the transaction still has power.

For part two of the quote- Thank you for bringing this topic up. There are members here from just about every nation, and places where BC is accepted/used, it's certainly worth having every option of serving our customer base. Perhaps for some folks who deal internationally, this could open new avenues of revenue. My vote? Keep it up.

[Beaverslayer]

TwinOaks, it's interesting that you mention the part about satelite links, there is a company that is presently working on building and launching a satelite just for this reason. I'm not sure exactly how it all works, whether you'd need a sat phone or just a normal smart cell phone or not. There is so much development going on right now in the Bitcoin/Altcoin world. I think the main reason behind so much development, is the fact that it is all open source, so if you know how to program software, you can easily get involved.

Regarding the "International" customers and leatherworkers, Bitcoin reduces the cost of international money transfers greatly compared to conventional methods. As I said earlier, one man/woman (no way of knowing who) sent a bit over 81 Million dollars worth of Bitcoin in one transaction at a cost of only four cents. The transaction took a bit over 10 minutes to complete, this is unheard of in the international let alone the local money transfer world.

The part about the "Un Banked" of the world, is that whether you use Bitcoin or M-Pesa in Africa, you essentially have a "Bank" of your very own right there in your cell phone. You own the bank, not some big corporation or government...you own it.

[Beaverslayer]

Here's a link to a very resourceful site on Bitcoin that will help you to better understand all the benefits of Bitcoin.

http://enjoybitcoins.com/bitcoin-resources/

[leatherwytch]

I hate to say this, it is all clear as mud to me. I am one of those hands on type of people. I need to personally see how it works. Just the thing right now is I can't go to coop and use it, I can't pay my rent, buy my leather or take the cats to the vet, or fill the car with gas with it so I need to know how it will benefit me.

I have heard of bit coins and that they mainly started in Europe. I just can't get a handle on this without seeing it in action. I need to know what currency is it equal too. If I sell someone a belt for $225.USD would bit coin equal that or would it be $225. million. for bit coin or $2.25.

I was involved with Calgary Dollars but the big issue is that most people selling things with that were just junk out of their houses. My stuff is new and most did not have the calgary dollars to match the price and would not pay 75% in cold hard cash. With Calgary Dollars I could not buy leather, use it for gas, shop at the stores, give it to the vet or pay my rent with it either.

[Tramps Leatherworking]

I hate to say this, it is all clear as mud to me. I am one of those hands on type of people. I need to personally see how it works. Just the thing right now is I can't go to coop and use it, I can't pay my rent, buy my leather or take the cats to the vet, or fill the car with gas with it so I need to know how it will benefit me.

I have heard of bit coins and that they mainly started in Europe. I just can't get a handle on this without seeing it in action. I need to know what currency is it equal too. If I sell someone a belt for $225.USD would bit coin equal that or would it be $225. million. for bit coin or $2.25.

I was involved with Calgary Dollars but the big issue is that most people selling things with that were just junk out of their houses. My stuff is new and most did not have the calgary dollars to match the price and would not pay 75% in cold hard cash. With Calgary Dollars I could not buy leather, use it for gas, shop at the stores, give it to the vet or pay my rent with it either.

Wytch, This is extremely risky and the potential for loss is huge, Bitcoin is constantly be pushed because it's value depends on more people getting into the fold... My opinion is this is a bubble that will burst with catastrophic results... Sometimes "no accountability" is not good... (Based on my research --- your opinion may vary)

[Beaverslayer]

I hate to say this, it is all clear as mud to me. I am one of those hands on type of people. I need to personally see how it works. Just the thing right now is I can't go to coop and use it, I can't pay my rent, buy my leather or take the cats to the vet, or fill the car with gas with it so I need to know how it will benefit me.

I have heard of bit coins and that they mainly started in Europe. I just can't get a handle on this without seeing it in action. I need to know what currency is it equal too. If I sell someone a belt for $225.USD would bit coin equal that or would it be $225. million. for bit coin or $2.25.

I was involved with Calgary Dollars but the big issue is that most people selling things with that were just junk out of their houses. My stuff is new and most did not have the calgary dollars to match the price and would not pay 75% in cold hard cash. With Calgary Dollars I could not buy leather, use it for gas, shop at the stores, give it to the vet or pay my rent with it either.

leatherwytch,

You being from Calgary are one of the luckier ones as there is a "Brick and Mortar" store that deals only in Bitcoin down on 17th Ave and 10th Street SW. Their name is Bitcoin Brains. I deal with them on a regular basis and they are not only extremely friendly but also extremely helpful.

Here's a link to their website: http://bitcoinbrains.com/merchants/

They work with another Calgary based company called CaVirtex which is Canada's largest Bitcoin exchange. CaVirtex offers a POS system for people looking to accept Bitcoins for purchases. This service is exactly the same as PayPal, Square or any other money/credit processing service except for the fees charged. You are able to see a comparison of those fees on the Bitcoin Brain website.

I don't suggest just accepting Bitcoins on your own, as this can be a somewhat costly thing as the value of a Bitcoin could change before you are able to convert it to Canadian dollars. By utilizing the services of CaVirtex or CoinBase (being in Calgary I would use CaVirtex) once you make a sale for a $225.00 US belt, they customer has the option of paying you via Bitcoin, credit card or PayPal (if you have those options) if they choose Bitcoin, then at the checkout CaVirtex would calculate the amount of Bitcoin required to equate to $225.00 US and that is what they would pay. CaVirtex would then accept their payment in Bitcoin and immediately convert it to US or Canadian dollars depending on which you choose it to.

The funds collected by CaVirtex would then be sent to your bank account. The main thing here is not only are you able to market to people who want to use Bitcoins, you are also getting a POS service such as PayPal at a greatly reduced cost.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Beaverslayer

[Beaverslayer]

Wytch, This is extremely risky and the potential for loss is huge, Bitcoin is constantly be pushed because it's value depends on more people getting into the fold... My opinion is this is a bubble that will burst with catastrophic results... Sometimes "no accountability" is not good... (Based on my research --- your opinion may vary)

Tramps, I respect your opinion on what you think about Bitcoin, and in some way you are correct about the potential for loss. There is a very good potential for loss if you "Hold" the Bitcoins you've gotten from sales in hopes that they increase in value. I DO NOT suggest this and have only ever said to use a service that can convert Bitcoins to your countries currency and deposit those funds into your bank account.

By utilizing a service provider such as CaVirtex, CoinBase or any one of a number of other reputable (and backed by multi million dollar corporations) you are not dealing with "no accountability" these companies are just as accountable as your bank is. The notion that this is some sort of "Bubble" that will burst at any time now is just that "a notion" or your opinion.

There is a reason companies like the New York Stock Exchange, the Winklevoss Twins and Microsoft, Amazon Dot Com, Overstock Dot Com and many other very very large multinational corporations not only investing in Bitcoin but also accepting them as a viable alternative to fiat currency. The biggest and most important of these reasons is the speed of transactions and the cost of those transactions.

When current credit card/PayPal fees are between 2.5% and 3.5% these are savings that go into your bottom line, not some huge multinational corporation.

Another reason, and a very important one, is that Bitcoin is not a "Centralized" service. What this means is that your personal information is not stored anywhere in some large data centre that can be hacked such as Target was. This also means that people cannot hack into the Bitcoin system and steal your identity and run amok with it and make your life a living hell.

By accepting payment in Bitcoin you are also protected by the scammers that do "Charge Backs" on credit card purchases, or the ones on PayPal that register a complaint that the item arrived damaged or didn't arrive at all. PayPal will side with the complainer and "Freeze" your PayPal account until you prove otherwise. With Bitcoin this can never happen.

There are many people who are very skeptical of Bitcoin (as well as anything new like this) and I respect that skepticism (I was skeptical as well) once you realize that Bitcoin isn't just some weird new ponzi scheme or some fancy idea, then you are able to see the advantages of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is no longer looked at as the thing that will bring down fiat currency and the all mighty dollar, it is looked at as an "International" currency built on mathematical technology.

I've spent over a year now learning about Bitcoin and Altcoins to better understand exactly what they are and how they work. I also have been "Day-trading" Altcoins on exchanges just like the stock market. I invested into another computer that "Mines" for Altcoins that I convert to Bitcoins and then sell at Bitcoin Brains here in Calgary. I am able to go to a few coffee shops and buy coffee and donuts with Bitcoin as well as use the Bitcoin ATM's that are here in Calgary.

I spent a number of years doing custom leather work as well as being an active member here on this forum. I know how hard it is to garner new clients and get sales and not have to worry about whether the person is going to pay me. I was always looking for new ways to try to get new customers, whether it be by a website, Etsy or word of mouth...it is not an easy task. What I believe, is that by marketing to the Bitcoin world, you are opening up a whole new avenue of potential customers. Bitcoin people WANT to be able to use their Bitcoins, so why not be on the ground floor and help them spend them?

If I were still doing leather work, I would have no problem whatsoever accepting them as payment.