441 Machines, Interesting Observation

[Darren Brosowski]

In my business I see a few of the different 441 style machines. On this forum the good thing is that suppliers base their business on the work they do to to set the machines up for their customers and their after sales service I have seen threads in other places that claim that certain suppliers have "better" parts than others.

Over the last few years I have played with all of the various GA441 machines from China and while some people may claim that they have special parts in their machines all of them come with exactly the same parts list. Yes, the part numbers are identical.

Cobra decided that the Chinese made bobbin winder gives them too many issues so they deleted it and provide an external type - probably a good move - but the machine is essentially the same.

I am sick of some of the crap I see being dumped on various suppliers when the machines are essentially the same.

Buying a sewing machine comes down to location and having trust in the seller.

[Cobra Steve]

Hi Darren, hope all is well. There are many factories in China that make parts for the 441 style machines, some are top notch, some are not. They all use the same part numbers for convenience. The Leather Machine co., Inc. does not "cut corners" on any of our products, this is why we are able to give a limited lifetime warranty on all of our machinery and a 3-year warranty on our motors.

[Darren Brosowski]

Steve,

The GA441 is a very low volume machine by Chinese standards and I find it hard to believe that there is more than one supplier for any of the components. I am a mechanical engineer and have extensive knowledge of production systems.

If anyone was serious about making their 441 better then they would throw the shuttle in the bin and replace it with a Japanese Hirose version.

[Cobra Steve]

Darren, when we first started LMC, our broker who lived in Shanghai at the time, and who has been doing this for 40 years, sent us 6 samples of parts from different manufacturers for us to examine and test. He also eliminated many factories that did not meet his standards. We also have a couple of factories that make some of our parts as well. Thank you for your insight and opinion.

[Darren Brosowski]

Steve,

I am a mechanical engineer with experience in design and production. In my early years in the engineering industry I was heavily involved in the design and manufacture of fire fighting equipment for offshore oil platforms and other critical applications. The Chinese tried to copy us but could not work with the materials we used such as 316L.

China works on large quantities so I find it hard to believe that for the 441 - which has a market of less than 2000 units per year - that there is more than one manufacturer of any one component.

For the price of the machine FOB there is likely to be only one producer of any one component or it would not be worth setting up the machine to produce. The two conrods between top and bottom are forged and the tooling cost is enormous.

What tests did you do on these parts?

[JLSleather]

Sucked in by the word "observation" (some may have noticed my "signature" under my posts). Like many, I knew virtually nothing about machines to stitch leather. But, I do observe, and I form my own opinions. I'll ask for advice or opinions, but in the end I'll make my own decision.

I still don't know a great deal about leather stitchers. I'm not a sewing machine designer or builder, nor do I care to be. But, we were talking about observations. I don't have anything to gain or lose from stating my opinion, so .. some observation, for what it's worth.

In the little time I've looked, I can see that the ones you see heavily marketed around here are not the standard which "set the bar". On the other hand, the machines "around" the site run about half the price of those "real" ones. Keep in mind, the ones I'm calling "real" ones are based on some of my own observations and some of that gathered information I referred to.

Is makes sense that machines would be sold here and dealers would advertise here. I am not aware of any other single place where there are so many people who might be interested in that type of product, and who often have no idea what to look for. Someone has - in effect - put all the fish in one barrel for them.

I've seen people adamantly recommend "machine A" or "machine B" as the "goal" that a leather worker should aspire to -- only to find out that they don't own one, and are merely repeating what someone else said. Which they heard from someone, who heard from someone .... (in the same barrel, you know).

In the end, a guy might just take all the info he has, and either buy a machine --- or don't.

[Darren Brosowski]

The most important thing with anything you buy - including a leather sewing machine - is the support provided by the dealer. All of the dealers on this site have scores of customers who will recommend them and that is more important than any claim about the parts that go into their machines.

Realistically the only major improvement that could be made to a 441 is to throw the shuttle away and replace it with the Hirose version from Japan

[TinkerTailor]

Sometimes we humans just get a design right. No need to change. Adjustable wrenches. The number of ways we have tried to make an adjustable wrench is astounding. The 'crescent' wrench was the one that worked. Now, any wrench of that style is called a crescent wrench. The thing is, they all work pretty much the same, cheap or good. Some are shinyer. Anytime someone tries to improve on it, it usually detracts from the design and simplicity. The adler/singer patcher and the 441 are other designs which have lasted because we got them right.

[Ken B]

I've been looking at 441 and 205 machines lately, including the machines straight from China, shipped over on a boat.

What I'm curious to know, is why do the machines from Ferdco, Techsew, Cobra, Artisan, KingMax, and Cowboy sew 7/8" and have 1" foot lift?
The other machines, Keestar, Foxsew, Hightex, Consew, Nick-O Sew, SewPro, etc, etc have 4/5" foot lift, and will sew 16/25" material.

What changes must be made to these machines to make them have 1" presser foot lift? Is this even feasible with the 205, or must the 441 be used?

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ken B

[Wizcrafts]

I've been looking at 441 and 205 machines lately, including the machines straight from China, shipped over on a boat.

What I'm curious to know, is why do the machines from Ferdco, Techsew, Cobra, Artisan, KingMax, and Cowboy sew 7/8" and have 1" foot lift?

The other machines, Keestar, Foxsew, Hightex, Consew, Nick-O Sew, SewPro, etc, etc have 4/5" foot lift, and will sew 16/25" material.

What changes must be made to these machines to make them have 1" presser foot lift? Is this even feasible with the 205, or must the 441 be used?

All walking foot machines whether compound (triple) feed, or dual feed, have two feet: one each; inside and outside. These two feet must alternate up and down a certain distance to do their walk of life. Typically, a minimum alternation of 1/8 inch is required. More often than not, users increase the lift of the feet to climb over new layers that are regularly encountered. The higher the alternating feet lift, the less room there is for material. Thus, a machine with feet that can be raised up 1 inch cannot sew any thickness exceeding 7/8 inch, if even that much. Some machines have other mechanical limiters that reduce their maximum thickness even further.

I own a Cowboy CB4500 (441 clone). Due to me making numerous changes and adjustments, when a 7/8" thick project came along, it no longer lifted the feet high enough to clear the leather. I had to restore the original configuration in order to get the feet up over 1 inch (original was 1 1/8" lift). The point of the needle sits at about 1 1/8" at TDC. The feet need not lift beyond that height.

Some machines ship with less lift than others. Everything depends on how it was setup by the dealer you buy it from.

[Ken B]

All walking foot machines whether compound (triple) feed, or dual feed, have two feet: one each; inside and outside. These two feet must alternate up and down a certain distance to do their walk of life. Typically, a minimum alternation of 1/8 inch is required. More often than not, users increase the lift of the feet to climb over new layers that are regularly encountered. The higher the alternating feet lift, the less room there is for material. Thus, a machine with feet that can be raised up 1 inch cannot sew any thickness exceeding 7/8 inch, if even that much. Some machines have other mechanical limiters that reduce their maximum thickness even further.

I own a Cowboy CB4500 (441 clone). Due to me making numerous changes and adjustments, when a 7/8" thick project came along, it no longer lifted the feet high enough to clear the leather. I had to restore the original configuration in order to get the feet up over 1 inch (original was 1 1/8" lift). The point of the needle sits at about 1 1/8" at TDC. The feet need not lift beyond that height.

Some machines ship with less lift than others. Everything depends on how it was setup by the dealer you buy it from.

That makes sense, thanks Wiz.

So it's not due to "special parts", it's just adjustments

[Darren Brosowski]

It is possible to get the 441 to sew through over an inch of hard leather but you will be straining the machine frame beyond what it was designed for.

The Singer 97-10 will sew through 1" all day long but it is a short arm that weighs almost as much as a 441 so it has the structural rigidity to handle it.

All walking foot machines whether compound (triple) feed, or dual feed, have two feet: one each; inside and outside. These two feet must alternate up and down a certain distance to do their walk of life. Typically, a minimum alternation of 1/8 inch is required. More often than not, users increase the lift of the feet to climb over new layers that are regularly encountered. The higher the alternating feet lift, the less room there is for material. Thus, a machine with feet that can be raised up 1 inch cannot sew any thickness exceeding 7/8 inch, if even that much. Some machines have other mechanical limiters that reduce their maximum thickness even further.

I own a Cowboy CB4500 (441 clone). Due to me making numerous changes and adjustments, when a 7/8" thick project came along, it no longer lifted the feet high enough to clear the leather. I had to restore the original configuration in order to get the feet up over 1 inch (original was 1 1/8" lift). The point of the needle sits at about 1 1/8" at TDC. The feet need not lift beyond that height.

Some machines ship with less lift than others. Everything depends on how it was setup by the dealer you buy it from.

[Wizcrafts]

That makes sense, thanks Wiz.

So it's not due to "special parts", it's just adjustments

I've been looking at 441 and 205 machines lately, including the machines straight from China, shipped over on a boat.

What I'm curious to know, is why do the machines from Ferdco, Techsew, Cobra, Artisan, KingMax, and Cowboy sew 7/8" and have 1" foot lift?

The other machines, Keestar, Foxsew, Hightex, Consew, Nick-O Sew, SewPro, etc, etc have 4/5" foot lift, and will sew 16/25" material.

What changes must be made to these machines to make them have 1" presser foot lift? Is this even feasible with the 205, or must the 441 be used?

The chain from the lift pedal, feeding up to the rear of the lift rod on the back and its central pivot arm, eventually connecting to the lift block inside the left face of the head must all be optimized to lift the feet to their mechanical maximum height. Tweaking, not twerking, is usually required. However, the tweaking may cause one to twerk after a few hours of frustration with the interrelated and often non-intuitive adjustments. Any binding between the links in the lift chain and the holes in the rear of the body will interfere with the lift and release. If the top mounted pressure adjuster was drilled off-center, or out of round, the lifted presser bar may hang at these altitudes. Lift related cranks inside the head may need to be removed, cleaned, polished and oiled directly, then reassembled, after ensuring that they have the necessary full range of motion without binding.

Finally, you must use the standard flat plate and (smooth) feed dog. The feed dog may need to be lowered slightly to just reach the top of the throat plate cutout.

I had to do all of the above recently, to sew a 7/8 inch thick holster. I also had to change the needle to a diamond point #25.

As for the 205 machines. it depends on who sets them up and what modifications they make. I know people who can do this in their sleep and others who can only dream of doing it. Ditto for Union Lockstitch machines.

[Darren Brosowski]

There are always ways and means to make a machine foot lift higher but the important thing is the foot lift during operation.I have figured out how to get a 441 to work up to 1" but it is only going to stress the machine so I am not going to do it unless a customer signs a waiver releasing me from all obligation.

Toledo quote 3/4" to 7/8" for the 441 and I suspect that at 7/8" you need to have at least some compressible material.

[Wizcrafts]

There are always ways and means to make a machine foot lift higher but the important thing is the foot lift during operation.I have figured out how to get a 441 to work up to 1" but it is only going to stress the machine so I am not going to do it unless a customer signs a waiver releasing me from all obligation.

Toledo quote 3/4" to 7/8" for the 441 and I suspect that at 7/8" you need to have at least some compressible material.

Not so. I got my CB4500 from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. It sewed a 7/8 inch, non-compressible sample stack of leather before I took it home.

After readjusting the feet numerous times, I had to restore the highest lift and sewing capacity for the aforementioned gun holster project. The leather was virtually non-compressible, 7/8+ inches thick. It cleared the point of the needle by about 1/8 of an inch. The feet lifted to the same height as the needle. I would not recommend sewing at that height all the time, but it is doable when needed.

If I had the space and money, I would buy a Campbell high lift .... period.