Here we go. saddle tree test. Carbon fiber verses hide

[daviD A Morris]

SITTINGUPHIGH1,

I'd be very interested in hearing about your experience with the FSA (force sensor array) pads, if you buy one. I've also considered buying one, but last time I enquired, the best deal I could find was about $17,000. Of course all technology related products are always coming down in price, and its been a while since I got that quote. I have also heard mixed reviews regarding the effectiveness of them. I first saw one in Germany in 1991 and I thought that the guy demonstrating them (who was not a saddler or tree maker) was drawing some very incorrect inferences from the data shown by the pad. Anyways, I'm interested in where you go with this.

Just a note about the photos in the first post you made here. I'm glad that you have now posted a link to american-flex cause I had the impression that you had taken the photos yourself and I could not understand how you could have taken the photos and yet be unsure what was under the rawhide. Also your comment saying "its the strongest tree they make" yet not know what company made it. As far strength goes, that rawhided tree is a comparatively week tree anyway, just look at how thin the fork is. Any well made western saddle tree with a lamminated fork and decent rawhide would have at least 5 times the strength of the tree in that photo.

Flexibility

All trees flex. For that matter all materials flex, even a concrete tree would have some flex, just very little. Its a question of the degree of flexibily. For those interested just look up Youngs Modulus or Modulus of Elasticity. It is probably a study which someone should do: Just how fexible should a tree be? I think that too much flex accross the the front can cause problems. Its like having a very large "clothes-line peg" with a very strong spring placed accross the horse's back and then a load on it, so that as the horse moves the spring loaded peg moves up and down slightly but squeezeing all the time.

Just my humble opinion

dam

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Mort,

I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel here. (After all, Newton only understood gravity and gave it a name. He didn’t invent it! ) I agree there are a lot of wobbly, weak, oblong and even square wheels out there in the saddle tree world, but there are round, strong and balanced ones too. There are good patterns that fit horses being used today. Those are the guys with the long waiting lists. Things like pressure pads can tell you IF there are pressure points, but they can’t tell you WHY they are there. There are many factors that come into play. The pressure pads can be an excellent research tool, but the interpretation of the results is what matters. Just because there is a red spot doesn’t always mean X. It may mean Y, Z, A, B, C, etc. etc. and that is where the practical, experiential knowledge of horses and saddles and trees comes into play.

To answer your questions: Our business was based on building for working cowboys and I would say that over half our current output goes to working guys that use them hard on a daily basis. If they didn’t work well for these guys’ horses, we wouldn’t still be in business. (These guys also tend to have horses that have good backs to start with. We agree with Greg’s point.) In almost 13 years and over 1600 trees, we have yet to have one come back broken. I can’t say for sure that none have broken, but we have not seen them, and we’ve heard some interesting wreck stories. I repeat – quality of materials and construction techniques make a difference - in fit as well as strength.

Please don’t misunderstand and think I am trying to brag up our trees in particular. There are other makers whose names you have heard (some who are members here) that do the same thing as we do. “We can see what we see because we stand on the shoulders of giants.” It doesn’t matter if they are English, Australian, Western or whatever - the “problem of saddle fit” disappears if you follow into two simple rules: 1.) Don’t dig in anywhere - no excess pressure points 2.) Spread the weight - adequate surface area. This is why we don’t shape bars to fit a mold from horse’s backs. If you do, the horse is going to break Rule #1 very quickly - as soon as he moves.

Like every other tree maker we have talked to, in “real life” or on this forum, we work to fit a body type, not a specific horse. What has been missing in the industry is a standard way to describe the body type of the horse. Dennis Lane’s system looks to have the potential to fill this void depending how it may be used. Then people could figure out the body type of horses they want to fit and buy saddles made to fit those body types. (And the tree and saddle makers still can have their one opinion on how a saddle SHOULD fit that body type, so every tree maker will still be able to do things differently. ) If all the horses you own are one body type, you need one saddle. If you have a number of body types, you may need more than one saddle. However, if the tree is built with adequate relief at all the edges and lots of surface area, then there will be some overlap between body types where the tree still does not dig in anywhere and still has adequate, though not full, surface area on the horse.

The other thing that is still missing in the industry is the “quicker and more affordable” way to make a tree. The methods we use to build a tree do not lend themselves to factory production. The patterns we use, however, might. But, as I said before, we won’t be the ones to go that direction.

[hidepounder]

This has been a facinating discussion to watch and I just can't restrain myself from making a few comments...maybe from a slightly different perspective. First, let me state that I am not a saddlemaker! Worked in a couple shops, seen some saddles made, decorated a few of them. So I have a basic understanding of building a saddle. Secondly, I am not a novice in the saddle, gathered cattle in some pretty grueling country on our Arizona desert ranch, roped since the age of ten...still do, forty plus years later, even managed to make AQHA's top ten on a few occassions the past few years. I'm no expert, but do have a basic understanding of being in the saddle!

All that said, I am exasperated with this discussion of fitting a saddle to a horse. Just what does that mean? Are you going to fit him when he's standing...or when his back's rolled handling a steer....or in a sliding stop? It doesn't equate for me....that's three different trees! Oh...and are we going to fit him when he's a little heavy from non-use, or after he's been ridden hard for a couple weeks? Here's something I know for a fact! The horse I start out on in the morning is not always the same size when I put him up in the evening. So how are we going to get this tree to fit this horse? The answer is simple.....we're not! And because of this, I just don't see the real value of applying highly technical equipment to "fit" an ever changing dynamic! It's kinda like saying you expect to wear the same size pants your entire life. It's just not a reasonable expectation, nor a practical one!

I read an article that Dusty Johnson wrote a year or so back that I really like. Dusty quoted someone who said, "the saddle is both the central and the stabilizing force wedged between two very flexible and changing objects" and then Dusty said, "To consider the saddle as having primary control over fit versus the ever changing rider is simply absurd." He's dead right! So, what I need is a saddle that provides the least amount of discomfort to my horse and myself, while enhancing our ablity to complete the task at hand. And so we don't fit the horse...we fit the type!

It is also interesting that the most concern about "fit" is expressed by those with the least experience. I think this is because experienced horsemen and saddle/tree makers don't expect one saddle to fit everything, and recognize the impracticality of having a saddle for every horse. Referring again to Dusty's article, and I know this to be true from my personal experience, that most successful horse trainers ride three or four saddles on fifteen to twenty horses, during every single session! Because they're saddles fit the types.

There is something else I've noticed over the years, and I invite you to dispute this. The most complaints about fit come from those who purchase the cheapest thing they can find! It's especially true in the roping community...those of you who are familiar with this bunch, and it's a fraternity to which I belong, are nodding and laughing! What I'm sneaking up to is, that the quality of the product we put on our horses back, matters! It makes a difference! . Not every saddle/tree maker is necessarily good at what they do. So, if you want a better product, you have to belly up to the bar and get it from those who can provide it! It's not rocket science...quality takes time, time is money! And yes, if you're really committed to only using the best on your horses back, you'll have to find a decent used saddle to ride for a year or two until the custom one gets here! And it's gonna cost you! Cadilacs cost more than Chevys!

Carbon Fiber? Sure, why not? Show me the advantages...but forget the tire test! And no more talk about fit...I'm not interested in seeing comparisons which have no practical application. Show me the benefits of carbon fiber when utilized as the "central and stabilizing force wedged between two very flexible and changing objects" and I'll sign on. Until then I'm sticking with the tried and true...because I'm a coward at heart and I'm just too old to become a pioneer......... (pioneers get arrows)!

Okay!!! All done!!! "that's all I have to say about that!" (except....thanks for the opportunity to spout off!)

Bob

Edited December 3, 2008 by hidepounder

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

I know what you saying David. If a pressure pad is affordable and can be proven reliable I think it would be worth it. No misunderstanding a improper fit there. I was told by the owner of Double Diamond Equine that the industrial standard were wrong about saddle trees. That fitting a tree by type was not correct all the time. It seemed that each horse was different. A quarter horse tree sometimes fits a Arabian good and vias versa. As far as flexibility of a saddle. I feel your right that ever think technically flexes. Even steel. But it is so slit you could see it. I wonder if a wood tree covered with bull hide would flex with enough movement that you could see it ether. For that matter would fiberglass or carbon fiber. I guess it would depend on the thickness of the cover maybe. That is a good question. In the picture Rod had of the hide tree and the picture of the carbon fiber that was ran over by the truck it didn't look like ether one flexed enough to see. Well I guess he was comparing apples to apples. But the point I think was that carbon fiber is strong enough material to use for saddle trees. Some people say reinventing the wheel is thinking out side the box. Trying to improve on the past. I'm sure you have done that yourself. Well Rod what I meant about Einstein was we use mathematics as a tool to use gravity. A lot of people don't know Newton's mathematics on gravity is flawed. Using Newton's mathematics the orbit on Venus is incorrect. If you use Einstein's general relativity mathematics you can get a correct answer. Enough on science. Well I'm not saying any one from the forum would ever do this. But to say it is the horse after spending 3500.00 on a saddle. Could be a good excuse for a poor fitting saddle. The public does know what a good fitting saddle is. Just that it hurts there horse or not. Besides it would be a shame not to be able to get a saddle that fits a horse just because it doesn't fit into the normal horse category. I understand what you are say Rod with regards to adjusting the bar for movement of the horse. With flaring out the edges of the bars not to dig into to the horse. Some people arch the middle of the bar to make room for running with a horse. This is done to make up for the slit arch the horse makes while running and going up and down hills.

Thanks for your imput. I'm sure I will be making different kinds trees. Depending on the discipline and preference. It's all trying to keep a balance. Mort

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

I understand what you are say Rod with regards to adjusting the bar for movement of the horse. With flaring out the edges of the bars not to dig into to the horse.

Exactly. And when you make the pattern to allow relief on the edges, etc. that you need to do to keep Rules #1 and 2, you are no longer making an “exact fit” for the horse. What you have made is a tree to fit a body type that will work on other horses of the same body type. And because horses move under the saddle, the pressure is constantly changing in different areas, which is why you don’t need to worry about having a specific tree for every horse. Just fit the body type. Where you run into problems is when two bodies are different enough that you break Rule #1 by using the same saddle on both of them. That is why most trainers have 3-4 different saddles maximum – because that range will fit the vast majority of what they are riding.

Mort, this isn’t as complicated as you seem to think it is. But neither is it as simple as buying “QH tree” expecting to fit a QH or an “Arabian” tree expecting it to fit all Arabians. And to be absolutely clear, there is no such thing as an “industry standard” in the saddle business. The names used in the industry today are meaningless, as has been stated many times. This is not what we are talking about when we speak of the body type of a horse.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

I can see that would be a lot easer once you found a pattern to a type horse breed Rod. You set a templet up for lets say a quarter horse and use the same bars for all quarter horses. Rod if you have a request for a endurance or barrel saddle tree. Do you make the saddle tree fit the horse different?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Mort, we never even attempt to fit a BREED of horse. We fit a BODY TYPE - wide, narrow, round, angled, etc. Horses are horses. Breeds have been developed by humans who like to think they make a difference, but overall there is often more variation within a breed that between breeds. So as far as fit goes, it doesn't matter what the tree will be used for. The principles of how you fit a horse don't change.

[Traveller]

if you have a request for a endurance or barrel saddle tree. Do you make the saddle tree fit the horse different?

Actually, I'm curious about this, too. Are the trees for, say, barrel and reining saddles the same while the leather construction makes the two look -- and perform -- differently? I understand that the top of the saddle, like the cantle and swells, will vary, but what about the part that's actually in contact with the horse's back? Is it always the same regardless of application (within the same horse body type, of course)?

Thanks!

[hidepounder]

Mort, we never even attempt to fit a BREED of horse. We fit a BODY TYPE - wide, narrow, round, angled, etc. Horses are horses. Breeds have been developed by humans who like to think they make a difference, but overall there is often more variation within a breed that between breeds. So as far as fit goes, it doesn't matter what the tree will be used for. The principles of how you fit a horse don't change.

Boy Denise...you just said a mouthful! You're so right! If you stood three Quarter horses together, a cowhorse, a showmanship horse and a halter horse...the only similarity you could find between them would be the breed registry on their papers! Kind of sad too.....

Bob

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

OK who am I talking to Rod or Denise?

Then having a casting of a horse's back to work with would create a better fit. As long as you make the appropriate adjustments to the bar. Like flaring the edges.

You hear so many people talk about quarter horse bars, Arabian bars and mule bars. It sounds like you take every horse differently. And as you said fit the body type. That's what Double Diamond Equine has also found out using the there pressure pad system.

Here is a good question. What do you measure on the horse to get the body type?

So would you change the fit of the tree depending on the riding discipline?