Here we go. saddle tree test. Carbon fiber verses hide

[D.A. Kabatoff]

I was driving down a range road near Calgary, Alberta earlier today and came across something interesting... two small ranches almost across the road from each other... a guy on a quad was roaring back and forth behind about forty cows making a bunch of smoke and noise to move them into another pasture. Across the road was a rider on horseback, slowly moving about the same number of cows, presumably for the same purpose. Point is, it's not always about finding a better or faster way of doing something. Some people take pride in their work and that pride comes from how you do a job and not necessarily how quick you get it done.

A good handmade tree that forms the base of a finely made saddle to be used by a good horseman on horses with good backs all takes time from getting the tree to building the saddle to learning to ride and even the breeding that went into the horse. These are the the things that reward me when I pour my heart and soul into building a saddle; for me, there is little satisfaction in dealing with someone who wants a quick, cheap saddle...speaks volumes about the person and what they'll probably do with the saddle.

Darc

Edited December 2, 2008 by D.A. Kabatoff

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

You have a point there Greg. If I can make a good product with less time and cost. I may end with a waiting list like everyone else. But I guess I would feel better helping more people out. Here is a lady that uses the mapping system in her business. She says it is working well. http://www.doublediamondequine.com/Saddle%20Fitting.asp Well Greg I find people who ride only a hour or two a week don't know there hurting there horse. If your riding 10 to 20 hours a week is another story. You real need a good saddle for that kind for riding. There are a few things that can effect a saddle fit. One Is the rider, Two is the saddle tree. Three is the saddle maker. Four is the horse. If you can't get a casting of the horses back you can't guarantee the fit. And that's all you can guarantee the fit. At least if the fit is right the owner can look at the other things that can effect the horse. But I guess I'm not into mediocrity. After reading Rod and Denise's web site I can see there not ether. Yes I agree with what you saying Rod. I don't like the saddle tree configuration. I like the western saddle bar fit. The saddle trees this company is making has a Australian feel to them. As far as the Orthoflex panels I think the idea is correct within correct physics. But there application I don't like. I came up with the same conclusions you did Rod. The lady that runs Double Diamond equine came up with the same conclusions as we did using the pressure mapping system. High pressure points moving all around the Orthoflex panels. You right Rod the problem is coming up with a way to fit the horse. Same old problem. I feel carbon fiber and construction foam could give you more options to play with then wood and hide trees. The result could be a lighter, stronger, quicker made and affordable way to make a saddle tree. It's like buying off the rack suit or a custom tailored suit. Maybe something in the middle will work. Have a off the rack suit tailored. Is that kind of what you do Rod? I hear a lot of working cowboys are starting to buy saddles with saddle trees with fiberglass covering. Bret from Hadly and Fox told me he did pull tests with the wooden horn on the hide and fiberglass saddle trees. The hide took 2500 pounds and the fiberglass took 3300 pounds before breaking. Interesting. Rod how many working cowboys or endurance riders have used your saddle trees? How are they work for them? Like Einstein said Genius is 5 percent inspiration and 95 percent perspiration. Yes that's me Alan reinventing the wheel. Thanks. I'm in good company. Like Einstein did with gravity. Sorry Newton. Cheap is not the word Alan. Affordable is. If it wasn't for Ford we wouldn't be able to afford cars. The pressure maps have blue tooth now. You can walk, trot and run around the arena while watching the pressure on the horse. If perfection is a road and not a destination. Then Perfection is making the saddle so it can change with slit pressures differences put on it by the rider. The problem is not that the changing pressure on the horse. It is two much pressure on one spot. At least that is my look on it. Alan carbon fiber is just a different type of material to use for a covering. Planes were first made wood and paper once. Then aluminum was used. Now carbon fiber is being used. Function has to impartial. Now if it is art you want that a different story. That is a personal thing. As far as flipping over one side of the bar to make use as the top. You don't sit on the bars. You make a seat to sit on. So that wouldn't be a problem. Of coarse you real don't have to do that. You can just rap the carbon fiber over the top of the bar.

[Elton Joorisity]

I have to chime in here. I build saddles for working cowboys and I use Rod and Denise's trees along with custom trees from other makers. First of all, these trees FIT. I don't ever micro-fit a horse, especially with customers like mine that have a string of 3 to 15 horses. We find trees that will fit them all on a good average. Second of all, they are TOUGH. One of my customers raises bucking bulls and he has roped quite a few out of his saddle already. Back to fit for a second, one of my customers roped a cow and never botherred to tighten his cinch before he roped her, well they got done and he stepped off and pulled his latigo about four or five inches away from his horse. Sounds to me like they fit. My kind of customers are asking for custom trees and I know that this may not be true in your case and that's why we are all entitled to our opinions. Sorry if I rambled on about nothing.

[Tosch]

I have been watching this discussion with increasing confusion…

All aspects you mention SUH have been discussed in length in other topics in this forum….

There are different materials available with which to cover a wood tree.

You mentioned Ortho-Flex flex panel trees/saddles. The inventor Len Brown has, well, adjusted his opinion over time as you can see at his new website www.thecorrector.net. The American-saddles.de site you mention is run by Len Brown's former German sister company. For same time there was a lot of talk here in Central Europe about these saddles – seems to have disappeared.

The flex tree saddles are very popular here in the German speaking countries. Mostly with girls/young women who do not even know where a saddle should sit on a horse and who ride in an arena 99% of the time and hardly ride more than 1 hour at a time, three times a week. Information on saddle trees and saddle fit is hard to come by here. And flexible sounds so good, so gentle, so gentle…. These saddles are heavily advertised here. Maybe due to the fact that the company that imports the saddles to Germany (maybe to all of Europe) owns the Alabama based saddle company (and its higher positioned sister company based elsewhere in the US - Indiana?). These saddles are also heavily endorsed by German/European big name reining competitors. In a German forum it was mentioned that these flex trees have been stiffened up by the (large volume) US production tree company that makes them. If flex is so great, I wonder why? I also noticed that flex saddles here normally are ridden with neoprene or brand name "pressure point elimination " type of pads. Makes no sense to me if a flex tree is such a good thing.

The pressure measuring pad you have shown had been a hype around here some time ago, too. Measuring a horse and rider combination standing still, standing still in the correct posture /position? People who presumingly had no great understanding of statistical terms (standard deviations and confidence intervals were prominently displayed on the result screen along with impressing pictures meant to show some science) where trying to explain "whatever" to well-meaning and uneducated riders of the type mentioned above.

Even when you want to make a tree completely out of foam – I am afraid you are not going to re-invent the wheel. Such a tree has been around for a while. As I understand they are made in Italy. Saddles built on this type are endurance as well as so called "western" saddles. This German site allows a good view at the tree : http://www.distanzreiter.de/index.html?saettel_podium_zubehoer_und_optionen.htm and here is a US side showing some saddle models but not the "western" model : http://www.equineperformanceproducts.com/podium.htm .

You do not even need to make a mold of a horse's back to make sure the tree fits, just use Dennis Lane's card system, also discussed in this forum.

I cannot help it, but the "style" of your posts and this discussion somehow reminds me of the discussion with David G about saddles, saddle trees, and saddle fit we had some time ago.

Tosch

Edited December 2, 2008 by Tosch

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

A lot of nice people on this forum. A lot of knowlege to go with that. I enjoy your honesty and your opinions. Always much to learn. New ideas to hear.

I feel it is aways a balance of a good product, at a reasonable cost and in a timely matter. I think if your in business you always have to look at these things. I feel innovation is something you should always strive for. Wether you use hide, fiberglass or carbon fiber. I agree with Rod you still have to deal with making the saddle tree fit the rider and horse. But the important thing is does it work. As for what I am reading and seeing here Rod's saddle trees work well. But I hear the good fiberglass covered trees work well to. I feel workmanship is the key no matter how you make them.

Should you make the saddle tree to fit just one horse or to make the saddle tree in a general way to try to fit more horse types. That is a good question. I would think if you have the same type horses in your stock no problem. If you have different types of horses your going to have a problem. Switching saddles on different size horses and different breeds of horses would create problems. I read that's why the U.S Calvery breed horses with the same conformation. I would think Rod could shed some light on this subject.

I can see this subject in a sore spot in this forum. I hope no one takes it to personal. Tell I did some research I always connected fiberglass and carbon fiber with planes and boats.

[daviD A Morris]

SITTINGUPHIGH1,

I'd be very interested in hearing about your experience with the FSA (force sensor array) pads, if you buy one. I've also considered buying one, but last time I enquired, the best deal I could find was about $17,000. Of course all technology related products are always coming down in price, and its been a while since I got that quote. I have also heard mixed reviews regarding the effectiveness of them. I first saw one in Germany in 1991 and I thought that the guy demonstrating them (who was not a saddler or tree maker) was drawing some very incorrect inferences from the data shown by the pad. Anyways, I'm interested in where you go with this.

Just a note about the photos in the first post you made here. I'm glad that you have now posted a link to american-flex cause I had the impression that you had taken the photos yourself and I could not understand how you could have taken the photos and yet be unsure what was under the rawhide. Also your comment saying "its the strongest tree they make" yet not know what company made it. As far strength goes, that rawhided tree is a comparatively week tree anyway, just look at how thin the fork is. Any well made western saddle tree with a lamminated fork and decent rawhide would have at least 5 times the strength of the tree in that photo.

Flexibility

All trees flex. For that matter all materials flex, even a concrete tree would have some flex, just very little. Its a question of the degree of flexibily. For those interested just look up Youngs Modulus or Modulus of Elasticity. It is probably a study which someone should do: Just how fexible should a tree be? I think that too much flex accross the the front can cause problems. Its like having a very large "clothes-line peg" with a very strong spring placed accross the horse's back and then a load on it, so that as the horse moves the spring loaded peg moves up and down slightly but squeezeing all the time.

Just my humble opinion

dam

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Mort,

I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel here. (After all, Newton only understood gravity and gave it a name. He didn’t invent it! ) I agree there are a lot of wobbly, weak, oblong and even square wheels out there in the saddle tree world, but there are round, strong and balanced ones too. There are good patterns that fit horses being used today. Those are the guys with the long waiting lists. Things like pressure pads can tell you IF there are pressure points, but they can’t tell you WHY they are there. There are many factors that come into play. The pressure pads can be an excellent research tool, but the interpretation of the results is what matters. Just because there is a red spot doesn’t always mean X. It may mean Y, Z, A, B, C, etc. etc. and that is where the practical, experiential knowledge of horses and saddles and trees comes into play.

To answer your questions: Our business was based on building for working cowboys and I would say that over half our current output goes to working guys that use them hard on a daily basis. If they didn’t work well for these guys’ horses, we wouldn’t still be in business. (These guys also tend to have horses that have good backs to start with. We agree with Greg’s point.) In almost 13 years and over 1600 trees, we have yet to have one come back broken. I can’t say for sure that none have broken, but we have not seen them, and we’ve heard some interesting wreck stories. I repeat – quality of materials and construction techniques make a difference - in fit as well as strength.

Please don’t misunderstand and think I am trying to brag up our trees in particular. There are other makers whose names you have heard (some who are members here) that do the same thing as we do. “We can see what we see because we stand on the shoulders of giants.” It doesn’t matter if they are English, Australian, Western or whatever - the “problem of saddle fit” disappears if you follow into two simple rules: 1.) Don’t dig in anywhere - no excess pressure points 2.) Spread the weight - adequate surface area. This is why we don’t shape bars to fit a mold from horse’s backs. If you do, the horse is going to break Rule #1 very quickly - as soon as he moves.

Like every other tree maker we have talked to, in “real life” or on this forum, we work to fit a body type, not a specific horse. What has been missing in the industry is a standard way to describe the body type of the horse. Dennis Lane’s system looks to have the potential to fill this void depending how it may be used. Then people could figure out the body type of horses they want to fit and buy saddles made to fit those body types. (And the tree and saddle makers still can have their one opinion on how a saddle SHOULD fit that body type, so every tree maker will still be able to do things differently. ) If all the horses you own are one body type, you need one saddle. If you have a number of body types, you may need more than one saddle. However, if the tree is built with adequate relief at all the edges and lots of surface area, then there will be some overlap between body types where the tree still does not dig in anywhere and still has adequate, though not full, surface area on the horse.

The other thing that is still missing in the industry is the “quicker and more affordable” way to make a tree. The methods we use to build a tree do not lend themselves to factory production. The patterns we use, however, might. But, as I said before, we won’t be the ones to go that direction.

[hidepounder]

This has been a facinating discussion to watch and I just can't restrain myself from making a few comments...maybe from a slightly different perspective. First, let me state that I am not a saddlemaker! Worked in a couple shops, seen some saddles made, decorated a few of them. So I have a basic understanding of building a saddle. Secondly, I am not a novice in the saddle, gathered cattle in some pretty grueling country on our Arizona desert ranch, roped since the age of ten...still do, forty plus years later, even managed to make AQHA's top ten on a few occassions the past few years. I'm no expert, but do have a basic understanding of being in the saddle!

All that said, I am exasperated with this discussion of fitting a saddle to a horse. Just what does that mean? Are you going to fit him when he's standing...or when his back's rolled handling a steer....or in a sliding stop? It doesn't equate for me....that's three different trees! Oh...and are we going to fit him when he's a little heavy from non-use, or after he's been ridden hard for a couple weeks? Here's something I know for a fact! The horse I start out on in the morning is not always the same size when I put him up in the evening. So how are we going to get this tree to fit this horse? The answer is simple.....we're not! And because of this, I just don't see the real value of applying highly technical equipment to "fit" an ever changing dynamic! It's kinda like saying you expect to wear the same size pants your entire life. It's just not a reasonable expectation, nor a practical one!

I read an article that Dusty Johnson wrote a year or so back that I really like. Dusty quoted someone who said, "the saddle is both the central and the stabilizing force wedged between two very flexible and changing objects" and then Dusty said, "To consider the saddle as having primary control over fit versus the ever changing rider is simply absurd." He's dead right! So, what I need is a saddle that provides the least amount of discomfort to my horse and myself, while enhancing our ablity to complete the task at hand. And so we don't fit the horse...we fit the type!

It is also interesting that the most concern about "fit" is expressed by those with the least experience. I think this is because experienced horsemen and saddle/tree makers don't expect one saddle to fit everything, and recognize the impracticality of having a saddle for every horse. Referring again to Dusty's article, and I know this to be true from my personal experience, that most successful horse trainers ride three or four saddles on fifteen to twenty horses, during every single session! Because they're saddles fit the types.

There is something else I've noticed over the years, and I invite you to dispute this. The most complaints about fit come from those who purchase the cheapest thing they can find! It's especially true in the roping community...those of you who are familiar with this bunch, and it's a fraternity to which I belong, are nodding and laughing! What I'm sneaking up to is, that the quality of the product we put on our horses back, matters! It makes a difference! . Not every saddle/tree maker is necessarily good at what they do. So, if you want a better product, you have to belly up to the bar and get it from those who can provide it! It's not rocket science...quality takes time, time is money! And yes, if you're really committed to only using the best on your horses back, you'll have to find a decent used saddle to ride for a year or two until the custom one gets here! And it's gonna cost you! Cadilacs cost more than Chevys!

Carbon Fiber? Sure, why not? Show me the advantages...but forget the tire test! And no more talk about fit...I'm not interested in seeing comparisons which have no practical application. Show me the benefits of carbon fiber when utilized as the "central and stabilizing force wedged between two very flexible and changing objects" and I'll sign on. Until then I'm sticking with the tried and true...because I'm a coward at heart and I'm just too old to become a pioneer......... (pioneers get arrows)!

Okay!!! All done!!! "that's all I have to say about that!" (except....thanks for the opportunity to spout off!)

Bob

Edited December 3, 2008 by hidepounder

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

I know what you saying David. If a pressure pad is affordable and can be proven reliable I think it would be worth it. No misunderstanding a improper fit there. I was told by the owner of Double Diamond Equine that the industrial standard were wrong about saddle trees. That fitting a tree by type was not correct all the time. It seemed that each horse was different. A quarter horse tree sometimes fits a Arabian good and vias versa. As far as flexibility of a saddle. I feel your right that ever think technically flexes. Even steel. But it is so slit you could see it. I wonder if a wood tree covered with bull hide would flex with enough movement that you could see it ether. For that matter would fiberglass or carbon fiber. I guess it would depend on the thickness of the cover maybe. That is a good question. In the picture Rod had of the hide tree and the picture of the carbon fiber that was ran over by the truck it didn't look like ether one flexed enough to see. Well I guess he was comparing apples to apples. But the point I think was that carbon fiber is strong enough material to use for saddle trees. Some people say reinventing the wheel is thinking out side the box. Trying to improve on the past. I'm sure you have done that yourself. Well Rod what I meant about Einstein was we use mathematics as a tool to use gravity. A lot of people don't know Newton's mathematics on gravity is flawed. Using Newton's mathematics the orbit on Venus is incorrect. If you use Einstein's general relativity mathematics you can get a correct answer. Enough on science. Well I'm not saying any one from the forum would ever do this. But to say it is the horse after spending 3500.00 on a saddle. Could be a good excuse for a poor fitting saddle. The public does know what a good fitting saddle is. Just that it hurts there horse or not. Besides it would be a shame not to be able to get a saddle that fits a horse just because it doesn't fit into the normal horse category. I understand what you are say Rod with regards to adjusting the bar for movement of the horse. With flaring out the edges of the bars not to dig into to the horse. Some people arch the middle of the bar to make room for running with a horse. This is done to make up for the slit arch the horse makes while running and going up and down hills.

Thanks for your imput. I'm sure I will be making different kinds trees. Depending on the discipline and preference. It's all trying to keep a balance. Mort

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

I understand what you are say Rod with regards to adjusting the bar for movement of the horse. With flaring out the edges of the bars not to dig into to the horse.

Exactly. And when you make the pattern to allow relief on the edges, etc. that you need to do to keep Rules #1 and 2, you are no longer making an “exact fit” for the horse. What you have made is a tree to fit a body type that will work on other horses of the same body type. And because horses move under the saddle, the pressure is constantly changing in different areas, which is why you don’t need to worry about having a specific tree for every horse. Just fit the body type. Where you run into problems is when two bodies are different enough that you break Rule #1 by using the same saddle on both of them. That is why most trainers have 3-4 different saddles maximum – because that range will fit the vast majority of what they are riding.

Mort, this isn’t as complicated as you seem to think it is. But neither is it as simple as buying “QH tree” expecting to fit a QH or an “Arabian” tree expecting it to fit all Arabians. And to be absolutely clear, there is no such thing as an “industry standard” in the saddle business. The names used in the industry today are meaningless, as has been stated many times. This is not what we are talking about when we speak of the body type of a horse.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

I can see that would be a lot easer once you found a pattern to a type horse breed Rod. You set a templet up for lets say a quarter horse and use the same bars for all quarter horses. Rod if you have a request for a endurance or barrel saddle tree. Do you make the saddle tree fit the horse different?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Mort, we never even attempt to fit a BREED of horse. We fit a BODY TYPE - wide, narrow, round, angled, etc. Horses are horses. Breeds have been developed by humans who like to think they make a difference, but overall there is often more variation within a breed that between breeds. So as far as fit goes, it doesn't matter what the tree will be used for. The principles of how you fit a horse don't change.

[Traveller]

if you have a request for a endurance or barrel saddle tree. Do you make the saddle tree fit the horse different?

Actually, I'm curious about this, too. Are the trees for, say, barrel and reining saddles the same while the leather construction makes the two look -- and perform -- differently? I understand that the top of the saddle, like the cantle and swells, will vary, but what about the part that's actually in contact with the horse's back? Is it always the same regardless of application (within the same horse body type, of course)?

Thanks!

[hidepounder]

Mort, we never even attempt to fit a BREED of horse. We fit a BODY TYPE - wide, narrow, round, angled, etc. Horses are horses. Breeds have been developed by humans who like to think they make a difference, but overall there is often more variation within a breed that between breeds. So as far as fit goes, it doesn't matter what the tree will be used for. The principles of how you fit a horse don't change.

Boy Denise...you just said a mouthful! You're so right! If you stood three Quarter horses together, a cowhorse, a showmanship horse and a halter horse...the only similarity you could find between them would be the breed registry on their papers! Kind of sad too.....

Bob

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

OK who am I talking to Rod or Denise?

Then having a casting of a horse's back to work with would create a better fit. As long as you make the appropriate adjustments to the bar. Like flaring the edges.

You hear so many people talk about quarter horse bars, Arabian bars and mule bars. It sounds like you take every horse differently. And as you said fit the body type. That's what Double Diamond Equine has also found out using the there pressure pad system.

Here is a good question. What do you measure on the horse to get the body type?

So would you change the fit of the tree depending on the riding discipline?

[Alan Bell]

OK who am I talking to Rod or Denise?

Then having a casting of a horse's back to work with would create a better fit. As long as you make the appropriate adjustments to the bar. Like flaring the edges.

You hear so many people talk about quarter horse bars, Arabian bars and mule bars. It sounds like you take every horse differently. And as you said fit the body type. That's what Double Diamond Equine has also found out using the there pressure pad system.

Here is a good question. What do you measure on the horse to get the body type?

So would you change the fit of the tree depending on the riding discipline?

Mort, I think you are having a bit of trouble reading what has already been written. If I may be so bold as to speak for Rod and Denise (most of the time it is Denise you are talking to but Rod does touch the keys occasionally) They have said they use Dennis Lanes system to measure horses to get body type; they have said they do not change the tree for different disciplines. And you contradict yourself http://leatherworker.net/forum/style_emoti...usa_naughty.gif because on your post on Dec. 3rd you said Double Diamond's owner found that the industry was wrong about bar types and fitting the tree by type was not the way to go and they found this by using the pressure pad system and here you are saying the exact opposite was found by using the pressure system! That's the problem with re-inventing something .... it get's confusing (believe me I know just check some of MY old post!!) The bottom line as I see it is there are already solutions to the problems you seem to have with the saddle industry whether it is fit, cost, time or material and unless you can get a voice out of the burning bush or bring a plague of frogs or your staff can turn into a snake and eat all of the Pharaoh's magicians snakes you won't get any followers when you cross the sea. This is not a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it!" it's just simply "IT AIN'T BROKE"!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[oldtimer]

Flexibility

All trees flex. For that matter all materials flex, even a concrete tree would have some flex, just very little. Its a question of the degree of flexibily. For those interested just look up Youngs Modulus or Modulus of Elasticity. It is probably a study which someone should do: Just how fexible should a tree be? I think that too much flex accross the the front can cause problems. Its like having a very large "clothes-line peg" with a very strong spring placed accross the horse's back and then a load on it, so that as the horse moves the spring loaded peg moves up and down slightly but squeezeing all the time.

Just my humble opinion

dam

How much flex are we talking about in a rawhide covered tree ( or a carbon fibre tree) ? Fractions of an inch in any direction, so why bother about flex ? And what loads are we talking about to create this flex in a rigid saddle tree? Chevy trucks on horse back? I might have got it wrong? Enlighten me!

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

OK who am I talking to Rod or Denise?

Both. We discuss what we want to say and I (Denise) often do the typing. If something is from Denise alone, I use my alter ego - Denise - to post it.

What do you measure on the horse to get the body type?

There are no names or categories for body types. We have built hundreds of trees based on verbal descriptions only. To be a bit more specific, we used to use back drawings as we described on our website. Dennis Lane's system has made that much easier. www.dennislane.com.au

So would you change the fit of the tree depending on the riding discipline?

The principles of saddle fit don't change, regardless of what the saddle is used for.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

No not at all Alan. I was just confused because of the terminology used. Breed and body type of horses. How many body types of horses are there? As RND says no one has categories for them. It's Double Diamond Equine opinion that you can't fit a saddle tree to a breed and expect it to fit all of that breed. Like quarter horse saddle trees. Or Arabians saddle trees. I think that is what RND is saying also.

Alan if history and science has taught us any thing. There is always a better ways. Some times it comes slow and sometimes it comes fast. If not we would still be living in caves. And be hunter and gatherers. But these changes has to be tested. It took Einstian about 30 years for someone to prove his work. It took Einstian more then 10 years to come up with some of his ideas. I'm sure you do somethings different then you were taught. Because it works better for you that way.

As you can see I like to be a innovator not a copyer. But I do like to learn from the past. How do you know were your going unless you know were you have been.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

RND thank you for your insite on saddle trees. And the rest for you guys and gals.

I feel a open forum is great place to hear new and old things. What works and new ideas.

[Alan Bell]

Hey Mort, I guess we can agree to disagree but just because something is new or different does not across the board make it better and as far as history and science let's just say that I once met a man whose parents had set him on a path. He had never looked at incandescent light. He had never put a metal implement (spoon or fork) in his mouth. He had never drank water that had come out of a pipe. He had never listened to head phones or even talked in a telephone. He had not enjoyed our "modern conveniences"! Yet, in the darkest night when we would need a flash light to him it was like dusk. He could smell different people as they came around him and identify them. He could hear both ends of YOUR conversation on your phone from 5 feet away or so. He was as fit as a marathon runner and probably could have beaten most out there if he had seen a reason to compete but life was not about competition for him. By the time I met him we were both in our 20's yet I dare to say my overall health and fitness was maybe half of his (at least that is how I felt being around him) and I'm in fairly good shape and exercised regularly back then. I'd imagine he's lost very little of what he had because he is not allowing "modern conveniences" or "science" to take away from him what the Creator gave him. To him he is the "real" scientist, he and his parents that started the little experiment. Sorry for the total digression but your statement about science and history brought that to mind and I hadn't thought about it for a while.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[rickybobby]

Mort,

I believe the first tree they ran over was a Ortho-flex tree, the metal studs on the frt. bars are for the flex panels. That Co. was never the oldest saddle tree co. in the U.S. The website you posted for American-flex is all the same "sales" pitch that Ortho-flex gave people 10 years ago. It appears they are now in Europe. As a saddlemaker it is my interest to make sure the customer and their horses are comfortable and to turn out the best product I have learned to produce. I by no means know everything, I am only scratching the surface, learning from people here on this site that willingly give their advice and that are earning a living building saddles and perfecting their craft. I wanted to make this my second profession so I went to work in a saddleshop earning about 1/3 of what I made in my original profession, but this is what I choose to do to perfect this craft.

The questions you bring up are a concern for all of us (happy horse, happy rider) but by building some saddles and getting them on some horses you learn a lot. By building for yourself you can ride in it and take it home and make new skirts or change the rigging, this is how you learn to improve the things that make a big difference to the horse and rider. I built a saddle on a Ortho-flex tree and no I have not had trouble with it, it is used for pleasure riding. These saddles put the rider about 3 to 3 1/2 inches higher over the horses back than a "regular" saddle tree. I think this is a huge issue because the horse has to compensate for the weight being that far over their back and as far as close contact, forget it, it is not there.

Bottom line I think, is build on the best you can in what is offered, build it the best you can, then the ideas will be there for you to improve because you will have mastered the art of saddle making. You have to build a few before you can build the "State of the Art" newest design. These are just my observations I am always trying to learn from someone who knows more than I do about this profession but beware of somone that has a idea that is to good to be true without having mastered the basics (American-Flex).

Rick Jorgenson

[daviD A Morris]

How much flex are we talking about in a rawhide covered tree ( or a carbon fibre tree) ? Fractions of an inch in any direction, so why bother about flex ? And what loads are we talking about to create this flex in a rigid saddle tree? Chevy trucks on horse back? I might have got it wrong? Enlighten me!

Yeh,

good question. just how flexible is ideal for a working saddle. someone, one day might do an in-depth study into it. I expect the answer would be somewhere between more flexible than a heavily fibreglassed tree and less flexible than those trees made from sheets of plastic. There is an engineering firm in my town that has a load testing machine that could test the modulas of elasticity of tree for me, but it would cost money and also would need to make some kind of jig to hold the tree.

Science aside: notice the difference in the "life" in a rawide covered tree than a fibreglass tree, just by dropping it onto your bench from a few inches above. I've got no better word for it than "life" in the tree. That characteristic is probably just elasticity. The fibreglass covered trees just go "CLUNK" as they hit the bench. and the more glass that has been used to cover them the "deader" the "clunk"!

However I should qualify this by saying that there is a great variety amoung fibreglass covered trees. The ones I'm talking about are glass cloth and polyester resin. Jon Watsabaugh who is a contributor to this forum makes trees covered in epoxy and glass. From what I have seen, they would be the best glass covered trees you'll find. I have not had the pleasure yet of actualy seeing one in real life and can't wait for the experience.

I make rawhide covered trees, and also fibreglass covered trees, and have made saddles on carbon fibre covered trees. I still prefer the "life" in the rawhide covered trees.

[Hidemechanic]

Mort, everybody responding pretty much at one point or another has said most of what I have been thinking here except that it has taken three pages to say it and resay it.

The first thing that bothered me was you appear to have assumed that driving a truck over a tree was equivalant to "Strength Testing". It has nothing to do with the strength of a saddle. That was a gimmick that was used by Ralide years ago that may have givin the impression to some that that was a standard of testing. It's far from it and absurd to believe it is.

Secondly, you mentioned that 'sales person in you', your hole approach to this discussion has sounded to me like the point of view of a salesman.

That is, you obviously have done a lot of reading up and talking to people,and though you have a lot of ideas you have no opinion as yet because you have no experience in most of what you are suggesting. They are good ideas and you have a good start on a philosophy, but your 'passion' seems to have little to do with building trees or saddles.

I think you need to stop talking about it and get in the shop and start working out the details in practical application and bring the results back to us or whomever for evaluation. There are some engineers on this site that can offer suggestions and experience to help you fine tune things or tell you what their hurdles were.

Serro Gordo some years back was building carbon fiber trees but I think if was not cost effective at the time and he quit. I never got a chance to build on one though I was interested. Maybe you can hunt him down and talk to him about his experiences.

I'm sorry, but talking for the sake of talking without any practical experamentation gives me a head ache.

I wish you luck in your persutes though, let us know how you progress.

GH

[jonwatsabaugh]

Mort,

Like GH stated, there's nothing like experience. However, if you are really interested in learning how to make trees, there is no better place to start than to secure some time with a good tree maker and learn the basics of hand made trees. Even if down the road you wanted to make trees from duplicator parts, learning the handmade process I believe is vital. This would give you the basis you need to start, a very grounded knowledge of the craft, and the education would provide information you need to test the viability of your ideas. If we can at all help direct you Mort, we sure will!

David,

This might shock many of you here who have read some of my earlier posts, but I will concede and agree with you David, that rawhide does put much more "life" in the tree. Even though I like my epoxy/glassed trees, there are certain qualities and features you just don't get with fiberglass encased trees. At present, I still cover more trees with rawhide than I do fiberglass. I've seen rawhide and fiberglass trees both though, that I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for. Believe me, there are no short cuts to either process... they both require an aquired skill and much time.

Jon