Is This Correct? Chrome Vs Vegetable Tanning

Sarden · April 29, 2015

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and part of a startup business that seeks to source and promote premier quality leather goods and craftsmanship to a wider audience. I will post a link to our site in the "new members" group.

We want to educate people and help them better understand leather so they'll make informed purchasing decisions ― and we want to improve our own knowledge of leather. Those are the main reasons I am now a member here on Leatherworker.

We have just finished an article about vegetable vs chrome tanning. I would be most grateful if some of you experts would spare 5 minutes, read through it and comment on it. If you have suggestions for changes or adding more information to the article, please let me know.

Thanks!!

Anders

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Tanning leather: Chrome or vegetable?

The leather that your bag is made of has been tanned. And no, that doesn’t mean that it has been left in the sun to get a bit of colour.

Basically, tanning is the process that converts animal skin to leather. How this process is carried out has a very significant impact on the quality of the bag you hope to use for years to come.

Will it soften and acquire a patina over time? Or will it look the same until one day it starts to crack?

Once an animal skin has been turned into a hide by being degreased and having all its hair removed, the tanning process can begin. An untreated skin would both harden and putrefy as it is an organic material. So, the aim of the tanning process is to prevent this from happening – to turn the hide into leather.

This is something human beings have been doing for a very long time. Some evidence suggests that leather tanning was performed as far back as approximately 6,000 BCE in the Indus Valley – one of the cradles of modern civilization.

The basic principle has been the same for all these millennia: To modify the protein called collagen, which the skin is made up of. You can actually get a sense of this protein with the naked eye. Collagen molecules like to first line up and then to twist together into “fibre bundles“, that you can easily see if you look closely enough at quality leather.

Look closely and on vegetable tanned leathers you will be able to see the collagen fibres that leather is made up of.

What tanning does is leave the skin much less susceptible to hydrolysis – the separating of chemical bonds caused by water – which would otherwise cause its degradation. Tanning modifies the molecular structure of the skin.

Vegetable tanning
For the vast majority of the past thousands of years this modification has been performed by soaking the skin in a solution made up of vegetable tannins. These tannins would most often come from trees such as oak, chestnut or mimosa, but hundreds of tree types and other plants have been used. In fact, the word ‘tannin’ derives from an old German word for ‘fir’. So ‘tanning’ has nothing to do with colouring as in getting your kit off and letting the sun brown your skin.

A tannin is a molecule that bonds easily with proteins and will draw liquids out. If you are a wine drinker, you may have had heated debates over a wine’s ‘tannins’ – the ingredient that makes the wine feel dry in the mouth, sometimes to the extent of making both your tongue and gums feel unpleasantly arid and barren. Just as the tannins in wine come from the skin of the grape, the tannins in trees are found in the bark.

When tanning hides to make leather, the hides are soaked in a tanning solution. The tannin molecules will enter the hide and displace the water that is bound in the collagen. The water is drawn out, but as the tannins take the place of the removed water, the leather does not grow inflexible as fully dehydrated leather otherwise would.

It may sound easy, but it isn’t. The process is complex and the skins require multiple treatments over a period of up to two months in order for the water molecules to be fully extracted and letting the tannin molecules take their places in just the right way. A lot of work from skilled craftsmen is involved too.

Mineral (chromium) tanning
The complexity, expense and time involved with tanning with vegetable tannins led to the development of using mineral tanning agents instead. The basic principle is the same, removing water molecules from the collagen and replacing them, but the process is much quicker using chrome which by far is the most popular mineral tanning agent today. The whole process can be automated and finished in a day.

The process, however, is far less natural than when using vegetable tannins. It involves first placing the hides in acidic salts to better make the chrome fit in between the collagen molecules – and then returning the hides to a normal pH level.

This requires the use of acids and other chemicals as well as the chromium sulphates themselves. All these have a negative environmental impact and the industry is under increasing pressure to “clean up”. As opposed to the vegetable tanned variety, chrome tanned leather can’t be recycled either as it is not truly a natural product.

Nevertheless, today no less than about 90% of the world’s leathers are chrome tanned – primarily due to the cost. If you buy wholesale leather, vegetable tanned leathers cost about three times as much as chrome leathers.

In general, vegetable tanned leather is considered far superior to chrome leather.

Look, feel and smell

The cost and environmental impact of chrome and vegetable tanned leathers are not the only differences between the two. There are more visible distinctions too.

Vegetable tanned leather

Because of the way it is tanned, the colours of vegetable tanned leather will be richer and “deeper” and the leather will appear, as it is, natural.
Being an entirely organic material, vegetable tanned leather will change over time. It will grow softer and darker, and will acquire a patina depending on its uses.
As it is more durable, vegetable tanned leather will last longer than chromium leather – potentially several lifetimes. Bags that are decades old can be highly sought after items.
Vegetable tanned leather scratches fairly easily, but unlike chrome leather, scratches can easily be buffed out.
Vegetable tanned leather smells natural – the pleasant, sweet smell you probably associate with leather is the smell of vegetable tanned leather.

Chrome tanned leather

Chrome tanned leather looks a little as if it has been painted – the fibres of the leather not being allowed to show through the way they do on vegetable tanned leather. It is basically a less natural product.
Chrome tanned leather will not develop a patina but will continue to look pretty much like it did when it was purchased.
Chrome tanned leather will initially be softer and suppler than vegetable tanned leather but will not age well. Over time it will grow prone to breakage.
Chrome tanned leather is more resistant to water, stains and extreme heat.
Chrome tanned leather will have a slight chemical smell to it. Sometimes disguised by the producer artificially scenting the leather.

HOT TIP
Blue chrome

The chrome tanning process will turn the hides light blue. As they are subsequently dyed, the blue will no longer be visible on the surface of the finished leather. But the leather will later be cut into the pieces needed to sew, say, a bag, and the edges of these individual cuts will show a blue tint. Most producers will use a special paint to paint the edges, but if you see any trace of blue edges, the leather in your hands has definitely been chrome tanned.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Sarden

Sarden · April 29, 2015

Thanks a lot for your reply. Appreciate it. The point about chrome tanned leather being suitable for, especially, clothing is a good one. We will add it to the text.

With regards to patina, colour and wear, I have found numerous sources stating that chrome leather reacts the way described in the article: very little patina develops, it doesn't wear well, colours are not deep. Basically every source I have come across describes it this way.

Do you have more information about this? Maybe some online sources? I would be interested in investigating further if it is in fact not true.

Sarden · April 30, 2015

Thanks for another great answer. We will make a few adjustments to the text.

I think, however, that your "Horween Chromexcel" example somehow confirms that vegetable tanning is needed to achieve a good patina. As you say, the Horween is combination tanned, also using bark tannins. So I would deduce from that, that chrome tanning alone cannot produce significant patina.

With regards to the colour richness, here is an example of a page describing this phenomenon: http://www.satchel-page.com/blogs/news/14289793-shh-leather-prices-from-a-tannery

(They also sell jackets made of vegetable tanned leather - or at least 'vegetable re-tanned')

I understand that page is skewed towards vegetable-tanning, and so are we, obviously. But judging from our own leather samples here at our office, I would certianly agree that the vegetable tanned leathers appear more "lively". The slight differences in colour tone add a "depth" to the colour apperance. It seems "richer".

But the softness certainly seems a selling point for chrome tanned leathers.

Thanks again. Really appreciate it.

Thor · April 30, 2015

Besides the fact that tanning and dyeing are two different things and we differentiate at the least between coloring or dyeing the surface or dyeing through the whole and the processes for each are different I find the intro too long as well as the first sentence would put me off already. It may sound funny at first, but what it truly is, is telling the reader to be dumb. It's common knowledge that leather has been tanned. The few people that don't know that are probably not even interested in that fact already.

Mike, isn't Horween using veg-chrome tanned leather (I don't know). That would mean it's chrome tanned an re-tanned using vegetable tanning.

Thor · April 30, 2015

On 4/29/2015 at 10:37 AM, Sarden said:

As it is more durable, vegetable tanned leather will last longer than chromium leather – potentially several lifetimes. Bags that are decades old can be highly sought after items.

Vegetable tanned leather scratches fairly easily, but unlike chrome leather, scratches can easily be buffed out.

Vegetable tanned leather smells natural – the pleasant, sweet smell you probably associate with leather is the smell of vegetable tanned leather.

Chrome tanned leather

Chrome tanned leather looks a little as if it has been painted – the fibres of the leather not being allowed to show through the way they do on vegetable tanned leather. It is basically a less natural product.

All of these 3 points are false statements.

If a person heard of red rot before it's obvious that this would not be true.

If one really scratches leather it doesn't matter whether it's veg or chrome tanned. That scratch is to stay. Minor scratches may be buffed out, but that's no concern.

I'm just thinking of box calf leather, which is a chrome tanned leather and if you add some finish cote there's no difference in smell at all. This statement would only be true in regards of untreated leather. In that case we would be talking about unfinished leather.

For the chrome, this is again not true if reviewing box calf leather. It really depends on the tannery. There are on the other hand veg tanned leathers which will not really show any fibers. Please review anilin, semi-anilin leathers and so on.

I agree with Mike that more sources should be participating in this. A simple Google search will help already and you'll find articles like this one http://maxwellscottlm.hubpages.com/hub/chrome-versus-vegetable-tanned-leather

https://www.google.de/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&client=ubuntu&q=chrome%20vs%20vegetable%20tanned%20leather&oq=chrome%20vs.%20veg&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0.8865j0j7

doe · April 30, 2015

I can't comment on the accuracy of what you've written, but I can say that the whole thing seems biased and skewed towards veg tan and that, in turn, would make me skeptical as a novice buyer. I'm happy to be informed about a product's properties, but I don't want to be told what attributes I should prefer. For example, some people may like a more uniform color treatment or a consistent finish that will not patina over time. People may not like the idea of a product that scratches easily or that they have to clean and treat for weather resistance. Putting those biases in your descriptions is a little alienating. A more balanced and neutral list would point out the properties of both and emphasize that different leathers are appropriate for different applications. You can still say you work with veg tan for X, Y, and Z reasons but try to avoid putting down chrome tan in the process.

Sarden · May 1, 2015

Thanks a lot to everybody for your comments.

We have, of course, done many Google searches in order to research the subject properly. In fact, information from about 30 texts have gone into writing the little piece above.

The article mentioned above by Thor - <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" href="">http://maxwellscottl...-tanned-leather</a> - was one of those texts. Some of the statements that Thor call false above are also mentioned in that very article.

That article also states "vegetable tanning is far superior!" as well as "The only real advantage we have found with chrome tanning is that it is more stain, water and heat resistant."

It seems that some of the more critical voices above are in fact involved with working with chrome tanned leather. So just as we admittedly are skewed towards veg tanned leather, could it be that you possibly are a little skewed towards chrome tan for a various reasons?

Thanks Thor for the comment about the first sentence. I get your point and don't disagree if the target group consists of people like you guys here on the forum. Our mission, however, is to reach a wider audience and inform about purchasing quality. So the target group are people who are interested in leatherware in general but today don't know, nor care much about, exactly what quality they are paying for.

With that in mind, I hope the opening of the article works to generate a bit of initial curiosity, and, if we are lucky, a little smile. (-:

I agree with Doe from Chicago that the text can seem biased. It IS biased, I admit. Waremakers (our project) emphasises natural processes and craftsmanship, so we certainly prefer veg tan. But we will have a second look at toning it down a little, as we do understand the advantages of chrome tanning.

Thanks again,

Edited May 1, 2015 by Sarden

byggyns · May 1, 2015

If you are emphasizing natural processes & craftsmanship, I would suggest including a small section on brain tanning. Brain tanning was, from the research I've read, the original method of tanning hides & furs, and pre-dates veg tan. Chrome tan was really developed to imitate the properties of brain tan in a more economical, repeatable, & mass produced method.

I think that it would benefit you to emphasize that much of the chrome tanned leather on the market is not "full grain" it is "top grain". What this means to consumers is that the top surface has been sanded to remove imperfections and then coated in a finish that changes the texture of the leather. That is what gives the "painted look" you refer to. Full grain leather has the top surface intact, but may be shaved or sanded on the back side. Full grain leather can come in either chrome tan or veg tan. To my knowledge, there isn't a way to make "top grain" veg tan. I think this is where a big divide in the leather quality comes from, more so than the tanning method. Having the majority of the structure of the hide and the entire surface layer together gives a strength & durability that altered skins simply cannot achieve.

TwinOaks · May 3, 2015

This whole thing appears to be an attempt to gain some validity in an obviously biased point of view. The real downside to marketing like this is that while the OP *might* reach a broader market audience, their bias and lack of real research will completely turn off anyone who bothers to do their own research. For example: Me. I don't make everything I use, so that means I buy a decent amount of it. Given the misinformation in this article, I'd go out of my way to avoid the seller who uses that intro.
Then the defensive statement questioning Nstar - "....could it be that you possibly are a little skewed towards chrome tan for a various reasons?" gives me reason to think that the OP doesn't want to or can't defend their statements.

There are multiple types of leather in the world, and they've been developed for a reason. There is no ONE BEST LEATHER. Period. There are 'best leathers' for a particular use, and loudly proclaiming otherwise is akin to arguing that there's a way to polish the clean end of a turd.

Sarden · May 3, 2015

Wow, the tone here is getting unexpectedly aggresive.

As stated previously we did in fact spend considerable time researching this article, and while the final piece is admittedly a little biased towards vegetable tanning as we prefer natural products ourselves, the article is based on what we deduced from 30 articles was the general consensus.

As we have openly stated our own bias, our reasons for leaning towards vegetable tanning, as well as consider this a common preference among leather aficionados, I don't think it is entirely inappropriate to question if others could be a little biased too. Especially when they are working with chrome leathers themselves.

I'd hardly call the article "misinformation" and I don't think "Ambassador" puts forward any arguments to support such a claim. Most of what we write are facts repeated by numerous sources and I have referred to a few of these in a couple of my replies above. "Ambassador" on the other hand is accusing me of being unable to defend anything, being defensive and only spending considerable time here in order to "gain some validity" — whatever that means.

I came here to get some help and comments from people who know more than I. I thankfully got some that were more useful than the rather odd accusations in the most recent post.

If Ambassador wants to share some of the insights he has obtained through his own research, I would be very glad to hear more and am ready to update our article with these insights in mind.

doe · May 3, 2015

I know what I was trying to say, and I think Ambassador also made this point, is that the tone of the article, which purports to be objective but is clearly biased, is a turn-off.

It would be one thing if you acknowledged that both veg tan and chrome tan had their pros and cons, but said that you personally prefer veg tan for your products and that's why you use it. It's another to put forth a slanted article as objective fact. You are driving away potential customers who are turned off by infomercial-type presentations.

Thor · May 3, 2015

On 5/3/2015 at 1:53 PM, nstarleather said:
Also I doubt that the process for making Veg-tan on a large scale would seem super "natural" if you were to visit a tannery- while the compounds used may have a natural origin, I'm sure that on an industrial scale, there's a lot more chemistry and science involved in getting that perfect final product (especially when you're talking about the dying and finishing process).

He/They are based in Europe and our regulations are quite strict. So no, there's no chemical involved in veg tanning in Europe. What they say is what the customer gets. If not... well I wouldn't want to be in their place.

Dyeing and finishing is a separate step and has little to do with the tanning process.

Actually Mike did explain why and what he claimed. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Mike (TwinOaks) that there seems to be quite a lack of knowledge about leather on your (Sarden) end. Mike is absolutely right that there are various reasons for certain types of leather. For instance shoes, for which one could use veg tan leather but box calf leather is a lot better. At least for men's shoes. And for as long as one prefers not to have their feet wet in a hurry if it rains. Than again, one would want to have veg tan leather for a rifle scabbard, cause chrome tan would not be so great for the gun...

NStar.. brought up a thread recently with an explanation for genuine leather, in which the person simply proofed he doesn't know leather even though he's selling his products like hot buns.

If you prefer veg tan over chrome tan, that's fine, but to an honest sales person would say so in his article and just state the reasons without putting the other down. Don't you think?

BTW. the tone isn't aggressive at all. It's just being honest. I prefer an honest word over a million sweet little lies... On this note, I'd say back to the drawing board. Besides re-read the headline of this thread. You asked if this is correct. If you're not ready to get flaked, don't ask.

Sarden · May 3, 2015

Guys, I really don't think you are being entirely fair here. From the article:

Chrome tanned leather will initially be softer and suppler than vegetable tanned leather but will not age well. Over time it will grow prone to breakage.
Chrome tanned leather is more resistant to water, stains and extreme heat.

Those are pros to chrome leather, but in all honesty we have not found any others apart from chrome leather being better suited as garment leather which, as I have previously written, we will now add to the article.

The first two thirds of the article is a completely neutral description of how and why tanning actually works. Not skewed in any way.

I have admitted we are little biased due to our preferences, but I do believe that the article by and large is an objective look at tanning - albeit slightly biased towards veg tanning, in large part due to the naturalness of this process.

I have received a lot of criticism but little in the way of "evidence". One commenter wrote that chrome tan also gets a nice patina and then used as a reference a leather that is in fact chrome tanned and then vegetable tanned afterwards.

If you have solid facts that disprove our claims I'd be grateful to hear more as we really do want to write an objective piece here. If our preferences towards veg tan are based on false evidence, I would certainly much rather get my facts straight than put out a piece that is plain wrong.

I appreciate the potential turn-off caused by bias and will certainly have a second look at the article to see if the wording ought to be changed. But I don't really think it is that slanted — we do in fact promote both veg tan and chrome tan products on our platform.

As previously written, if you research online, you will find most leather aficionados praising veg tan, not chrome tan. I don't know, maybe it's an America / Europe thing ...

Sarden · May 3, 2015

"The tone isn't aggressive at all. It's just being honest. I prefer an honest word over a million sweet little lies"

Alright, I think I'm getting out of this one. I hardly asked for "a million sweet little lies". I simply prefer discussing facts instead of throwing accusations around. What's the point of that?

I have repeatedly admitted lacking knowledge. Which is why I came here. To learn.

TwinOaks · May 3, 2015

This may seem a little off-topic, but bear with me....

Scientific process, regardless of the complexity of the components, is always very simple. Observe a phenomenon, state a hypothesis, test it, and then state the results of the tests. In this case, I feel the first two are backwards. As has been said, there is a bias towards veg-tanned leather. That leads to the process being State the hypothesis (veg-tan is best), then observe and test FOR results that support the hypothesis. It's absolutely fine if you prefer one leather over the other, and if you are searching for evidence to support that then you'll likely find it. But that doesn't mean that contradictory evidence can be discarded or discounted. Also, I suggest that it is nigh impossible to write an OBJECTIVE article when one admits to having a bias in one direction or another. It's too easy for personal values and opinions to effect the writing - even unintentionally.

Now - some specifics: Chrome tanned leather that gets a patina - pig, goat, horse, cow, and some of the exotics like ostrich and alligator. The patina comes from repeated exposure to moisture and oils, as well as light friction. Which means: it gets handled a lot by sweaty hands or goes in and out of a pocket....or gets a fair amount of grease/oil on them some other way. My wallet is an off the shelf cheapy from Walmart ( Because I don't have a machine that'll sew that fine, and I don't have any 1/2 oz leather). I know based on the price point alone ($12) that it isn't veg-retanned from Horween....but it's got a nice little patina on it. My work boots have a suede-ish finish called Nubuck....and there's shiny patina areas around the heel cups, and the toes where they've banged up against stuff....or the suede-ish finish was rubbed smooth.

At the beginning of post #18, cited from the article :

Chrome tanned leather will initially be softer and suppler than vegetable tanned leather but will not age well. Over time it will grow prone to breakage.

Ummmm....no. That's closer to backwards than truth. Because the leather fibers are softer, they will be LESS PRONE to breakage, though CT is in general not as tough or hard as vegtan. This means it could be cut more easily. However - Chrome tanned leather for garments is usually thinner than veg-tan because hey, who wants to wear a 15lb jacket? If the thought is to point at the bottoms of bags/purses, etc. and say "see, that leather broke", then I'd insist on differentiating between abrasion and breakage. Does veg-tan have greater strength in some applications? Certainly, that's why items that need strength are often made with VT. But in something like a bag, the repeated flexing of a flap or repeated folding in the same place, will cause the fibers to become weak. Weak enough to break? Probably not, as long as the leather is cared for. Wait....what was that? "Cared for"? Here is another benefit of using CT - because of the difference in tanning process, CT leather doesn't require the conditioning that VT needs. Yes, you can wipe down your jacket and car seats, and should. But straight from the hide, the CT needs less conditioning and finishing work, as well as less maintenance over the long run.

Hmmm....evidence....well, I've still got a leather jacket from 23 years ago, as well as a leather blazer (suede) that was handed down from my dad's uncle...I'm pretty sure it's from the late 1960's. Both are still pliable, still comfortable to wear, and both still look great (though admittedly, I think MY leather jacket looks good with the scuff marks- each one has it's own tale). So, that's two examples of some CT that have aged well, and aren't prone to breakage. My dad has pair of Florsheim shoe's that he's had for around 35 years...do those count?

So....if it's so great, why don't we use it for everything???? Because VT is better for some things, and trying to carve on CT isn't very fun.
Incidentally, if the intent is to write an objective article, then one should NOT overlook the OTHER leathers that are produced....to include - brain tanned (already mentioned), Alum tanned (or Tawed), and UN-tanned (commonly called Rawhide).

Oh, and the subcategories, too, to include Oil tanned, Bridle leather, Latigo, re-tanned (both directions), etc.

needles · May 4, 2015

sarden you are running a business and the information you are trying to promote needs to be factual..

if you want to know the facts concerning leather tanning, you need to speak to the professionals within that industry..

international leather maker, is one organisation and magazine for said industry,, that often have the highest professionals in the industry, such as Mike Redwood,, I would suggest joining paying the subscription and gaining actual facts, that you can use to sell your clients wares...... etc

and here.... institute for creative leather technologies, in Northampton UK

Sarden · May 4, 2015

Needles, thanks. Very useful. We certainly want to provide factual information and after some pretty thorough research, we believed the article above was factual - although admittedly a little slanted.

I will have a closer look at the two sources you suggest. Looks interesting.

TwinOaks - thanks. There were some interesting facts and observations in your latest posts.

We'll have a thorough second look at the piece and I will repost it here when a new draft is finished. If nothing else, then for your entertainment ...

Our aim is to present a fair amount of facts and details but to be more inclusive than an article for professionals would be. We are a business, of course, and need revenue to survive, but our mission is also to help raise general awareness of quality producers and products.

Thanks again,

Thor · May 4, 2015

On 5/4/2015 at 9:13 AM, Sarden said:
Our aim is to present a fair amount of facts and details but to be more inclusive than an article for professionals would be. We are a business, of course, and need revenue to survive, but our mission is also to help raise general awareness of quality producers and products.

I'm not a fan of chrome-tanned leather either, but it serves a purpose and in fact is a quality product. For instance try making a car seat covered in veg-tan leather or do the same with chrome-tanned leather. If your driving a convertible and you'd have veg-tanned leather on your seats and being rained on, you wouldn't be very happy after. Your leather wouldn't dry very well vs. chrome-tanned on which you'd just wipe it off and your done.

We used to own a BMW convertible and it did have some patina although it was chrome-tanned leather.

Where about in Europe are you located. I'm quite sure that a few people would be willing and able to help, select quality producers (tanneries). I know one in Germany I could recommend without hesitation in regards of veg-tanned leather. Some of the best chrome-tanned leathers comes from Elmo which is in Sweden I believe.

Thor · May 4, 2015

Here's a graphic you might want to look into. http://www.ghurka.com/media/wysiwyg/Infographic/luxury-leather-infographic.jpg

One may or may not get the feeling it's slanted towards veg-tanned leather but I believe this is kinda what you are looking for as well.

oltoot · May 4, 2015

I, for one, appreciate Sarden's original approach, Is This Correct?. Although I don't feel a great need to know more about leather after 50+ years in the business and considerable study of the national and global history of the tanning craft/industry, there is always more to learn or to reinforce. Some of the comments appear a bit snarky and egocentric but I hope that Sarden will be able to rise above and accomplish his original objective of producing an informative introduction to Leather. Though it appears that however it turns out it will always have some detractors. That appears to be the price of trying.

Edited May 4, 2015 by oltoot

Sarden · May 5, 2015

Oltoot, thanks. Appreciate the support. I am rising above it and am working on an altered version that stays true to the objective while incorporating some of the less snarky comments. I only came to get my facts straight.

Thor, thanks. Yes, I came across that one. Nice infographic — that seems to lean towards veg tan as well.

I do understand that in some cases CT is simply the best choice. As you say, for car seats, garments etc., veg tan would not work well. I will write a little more about that in our updated version.

We are a bit all over the place in Europe. British/Danish team that originally set up office in Spain but are currently in Copenhagen, Denmark. We are not really looking for tanneries ourselves. What we do is source and promote quality producers from around the world — currently Europe and Japan — and act as a "hub" for these products. The producers of them work with tanneries in Germany, France, Portugal, Italy etc.

Part of our mission is to provide non-converts with accessible information so we get some more people out there to use quality products instead of mass-produced stuff that tends to fall apart and is generally just depressing to look at. I guess our veg tan preferences stem from this — but we are not out to misinform, so we are checking some of the sources suggested in this thread.

Thor · May 5, 2015

I don't think you should see or understand the comments as an offence. They may sound harsh... No doubt. On the other hand if you are in business for long enough you know how to take it. I'm not taking any of these comments personal and the personal opinion of whom ever doesn't bother me, especially when it's just based on a personal experience or emotional feeling even. I'm would be the last to say that I have it right all the time.

For instance, and this is something NStar is referring to as well, there's a well known company out there distributing sort of 50%knowledge, mixing up a few facts, stirring the whole pot and then selling it as the one and only truth, which in fact is just wrong and BS. I would like to have some of the German documents written in English, which would help in the education process, but they are simply not available and I don't have the time nor the need to translate. I might get it wrong anyways... However, if the basics are not right, than a person will ask himself what is correct and what not, leaving him with more questions than before. Therefore the pictures I gave you might be all you need.

For example the mentioned person is stating that dying is tanning - one way or the other. The facts are. A skin doesn't have to be dyed to become leather. That part can be skipped. Essentially leather is skin with the absence of protein, pigments and keratin... as well as fat will be removed prior or after tanning. During tanning the proteins are being fixated and cross-linked to achieve the desired result. So this is the basic and then we differ into chrome and veg tanning and so on. This is a complex process put into very brief form.

Either process, can ,if done wrong, have environmental impact. Due to this fact, one cannot say whether veg tanning is better than chrome tanning etc. What one can say, is that it is a proven fact, that Europe has very strong regulations for this and that they are being enforced. This may be true for US and Canada as well, I don't know, but we know for a fact that in many Asian countries this isn't the case.

Hope this helps. BTW. I'm quite sure that your Danish folks do understand German and are able to look up those sources as well as they are quite a bit better in this regards.

fivewayswelshcobs · May 5, 2015

Just to chip in traditional oak tanned leather actually takes year or longer to make not a couple of months- see J and F J Bakers website, I would also think many other veg tanned leathers could also take longer depending on the materials being used ie the skin and also the tannin source and also depending on the conditions in which the leather is being tanned in eg the weather.

Sarden · August 28, 2015

Final piece has been posted over at: http://www.carryology.com/insights/chrome-vs-vegetable-tanned-leather/

Thanks to everybody for supplying valuable information a few months back. As you can see, the original version ended up being tweaked quite a bit.

thefanninator · August 30, 2015

On 5/5/2015 at 7:36 AM, Sarden said:
Part of our mission is to provide non-converts with accessible information so we get some more people out there to use quality products instead of mass-produced stuff that tends to fall apart and is generally just depressing to look at. I guess our veg tan preferences stem from this — but we are not out to misinform, so we are checking some of the sources suggested in this thread.

You might want to go into some detail about the pros and cons of hand stitching vs. machine stitching.

Edited August 30, 2015 by thefanninator

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Is This Correct? Chrome Vs Vegetable Tanning

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