Correct Way To Use Pricking Irons? I Am Confused

[jhw]

hi i am new to leather making. i took a workshop at tandy which went over basics for making a little suede pouch. i am trying to make handbags using thin leather. i bought some nice remnants from a good local store just to get started. i have a 2 teeth and 4 teeth pricking iron 7 tpi blanchard which i really like.

okay so here is where i get confused. i have searched online and its hard to find compact info..

for multi layers, seam of bag, do i mark and prick one layer and then line up the other layer underneath and prick the second layer? ( clamp together with binder clips)

or

do i glue or tape layers together and prick through both layers

or mark each layer and prick separately

or prick one layer and use an awl to go through the 2nd layer

or prick the layers but not all the way thru and use soft awl to make hole larger for needles to go thru (i saw this method in one video but again that was use on very thick leather .. i am afraid i might damage the leather if i try this with very thin leather)

what to i do for a very thin strap? (leather folded in half so only using single seam) .. what i tried is taping the leather and pricking thru both layers.. not sure if that was best way to use the pricking iron .. it looked fine but ....

also wondering if its bad for the pricking iron to be going through tape or glue...

how do i added piping .. that is in terms of making the holes? is it best to mark and prick all the holes i will need to stitch the sides of the bag together?

thanks in advance for any help.

the information i have been able to find online has been mostly for very thick leather and i am not sure if the same processes apply for thin leather or methods are either not fully explained or alternatively there are so many methods shown that it just confuses me more ):

[25b]

Wow, that's a lot of questions. Stand by and I'll try to answer...

for multi layers, seam of bag, do i mark and prick one layer and then line up the other layer underneath and prick the second layer? ( clamp together with binder clips)

or

do i glue or tape layers together and prick through both layers

or mark each layer and prick separately

or prick one layer and use an awl to go through the 2nd layer

or prick the layers but not all the way thru and use soft awl to make hole larger for needles to go thru (i saw this method in one video but again that was use on very thick leather .. i am afraid i might damage the leather if i try this with very thin leather)

what to i do for a very thin strap? (leather folded in half so only using single seam) .. what i tried is taping the leather and pricking thru both layers.. not sure if that was best way to use the pricking iron .. it looked fine but ....

also wondering if its bad for the pricking iron to be going through tape or glue...

I wouldn't gunk up mine like that, but it shouldn't hurt them as long as you clean them afterward.

how do i added piping .. that is in terms of making the holes? is it best to mark and prick all the holes i will need to stitch the sides of the bag together?

thanks in advance for any help.

the information i have been able to find online has been mostly for very thick leather and i am not sure if the same processes apply for thin leather or methods are either not fully explained or alternatively there are so many methods shown that it just confuses me more ):

I don't really understand what you're asking about piping, but this book covers how to do piping pretty well...

http://www.amazon.com/Leatherworking-Handbook-Illustrated-Sourcebook-Techniques/dp/1844034747/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441291421&sr=8-1&keywords=the+leatherworking+handbook

Edited September 3, 2015 by 25b

[jhw]

thanks much, yes that video was one of the ones i found, as you can see its for 4 very thick pieces of leather. the leather i am using is thin and might rip if i use his method (soft awl to widen holes .. i dint think i need to widen the holes unless i really tap lightly on the pricking iron.

piping question .. sorry basically i meant reinforced sides that look like piping but no additional strand of 'piping' is actually added ...

stitch sides and bottom with seams facing out, put a narrow strip of leather folded over the seams, stitch folded leather together

- or possibly all 4 layers are stitched together not sure but that seems like a bear to try to do properly.

will check out the amazon book in thr meantime.. thanks again

[25b]

Ok, well that explains the confusion...you're talking about a bound edge...not piping.

[DavidL]

I find it best to only go through a tiny bit on the backside, just 2 mm ( I may be able to shape the awl even thinner so it is same size as 2mm past the tip). The pricking iron goes 50 percent through the piece, stitching pony vertical and I watch the awl placement on the back so that it is spaced evenly. Some have amazing control that they dont look at the backside. All my opinion and may change as I go on.

Another easy way is to put cork under the leather, sitting flat on a desk. Stab the awl straight down. Sharpening the tip so that it is rounded helps to sit in the pricking iron hole the same every time.

Edited September 3, 2015 by DavidL

[Art]

Pricking irons and stitching irons are different. Pricking irons are made to mark, then you do the work with an awl. Teeth on a pricking iron are more conical. Stitching irons are made to go all the way through the leather, and you don't even need an awl, the harness needles will do all the work. The sides of stitching iron teeth are parallel.

Art

[jhw]

hello Art,

thank you for your response.

i just doublechecked to make sure : the pricking irons by blanchard i bought are also considered stitching irons at least according to the fine leatherworking blog and several other sources online. It is shown used as a stitching iron in the blog post on their website, although the blogger does mention using an awl for a second layer.

i think tandy and probably other companies have pricking irons just for marking as you mention, i seem to remember getting confused at the tandy store when our instructor tried to explain which was which (:

good to know for future reference that pricking irons might not be the same as a stitching iron depending on the maker. i will definitely doublecheck from now on, appreciate the tip!

Edited September 3, 2015 by jhw

[25b]

Pricking irons and stitching irons/chisels are not the same thing and are not shaped the same. Art's description of each is correct. I have both and use both...they are not the same, regardless of whether certain people try (wrongly) to aver they are.

[jhw]

hello art and 25b,

i finally found the forum post on pricking irons.. unfortunately i cant seem to post the link here .ipad issues...

looks like i have not been using my pricking irons correctly as you both said here politely.

ok live and learn...

well in defense of the fine leatherworking folks, i might have misunderstood the blog post, he does also use an awl.

in any case still learning, thanks for your kind help!

[Art]

Jhw,

You don't prick THROUGH (your words) anything. Pricking is marking. With thinner leather, a pricking iron may, and probably will, go through. I looked at the fine leatherworking blog and indeed they were using thin leather. I suggest you watch Nigel Armitage video on using Blanchard Pricking Irons. Notice he does not drive them all the way through the leather. You might want to look at his whole series of stitching iron and pricking iron videos to get an idea how each type is used.

Art

[SmokeyPoint]

JHW -

I just switched from Tandy stitching irons to Blanchard pricking irons recently. It's a different process. From your original question, in order to mark the backside of the leather, you will need the reverse irons, or your marks will be going the wrong direction. (You'll end up with X's, not /'s) Using a single set (not using the reverse, or portmanteau, iron) of Blanchard irons is a three-step process: mark with iron, open with awl, sew.

I just bought some tape from Tandy to try out, so I haven't tried it yet, but I've been using Barges cement for my stitching. Spread a very thin layer on both sides, allow to tack up, press together and stitch after a little rest period. Never had an issue with my awl, irons or needles getting gummed up unless I go too thick on the glue or don't let it tack up first. Make sure you have good ventilation.

-Sean

[25b]

1. One is not *required* to use reverse/portmanteau pricking irons to mark the back side of the stitching. Myself and many others have successfully used the regular pricking irons to mark both the front and back sides of our work and the result is very nice, slanted stitches on both sides, so...it is possible to do this without having to buy reverse pricking irons. There is a technique to it (which I and others have discussed on here before ad nauseum so I'm not going to do it again here...)

2. If you want your holes to all be the same direction straight through, you still don't need to buy the "reverse" pricking irons...just refer to Nigel's video which I linked to above for marking multiple layers and then use your diamond awl to open up the holes all the way through.

Also, per Nigel, it's best to allow rubber cement (Barge's, et al) to set for 24 hours before stitching. I do this now after him telling me that and I find it works very well. Much better than only a brief wait.

[SmokeyPoint]

1. One is not *required* to use reverse/portmanteau pricking irons to mark the back side of the stitching. Myself and many others have successfully used the regular pricking irons to mark both the front and back sides of our work and the result is very nice, slanted stitches on both sides, so...it is possible to do this without having to buy reverse pricking irons. There is a technique to it (which I and others have discussed on here before ad nauseum so I'm not going to do it again here...)

2. If you want your holes to all be the same direction straight through, you still don't need to buy the "reverse" pricking irons...just refer to Nigel's video which I linked to above for marking multiple layers and then use your diamond awl to open up the holes all the way through.

Also, per Nigel, it's best to allow rubber cement (Barge's, et al) to set for 24 hours before stitching. I do this now after him telling me that and I find it works very well. Much better than only a brief wait.

Great tip on waiting 24 hours. I have no idea what I have been letting it rest for, I just set things aside and get back to it when I can. Sometimes that happens to be the next day, sometimes it's not. I have a day job so things get done in short bursts.

Interesting on using standard irons on both sides. As I said, I just recently switched. I'm trying to retool to focus more on hand-sewing. So I literally spent many hours over the past several days stitching in every possible way: left-hand, right-hand, knot, no knot etc., looking for the right combination to provide the look I want on the front and the back. Some things I make need to look good on both sides. Some stitching methods provide a great front, but a lousy back.

But I never considered using the iron on both sides.

So... if there's a technique, and others have written about it, how about a little help in finding those threads? Searching the forums makes the assumption that you know what keywords to search for, or you wind up wading through a mountain of un-helpful topics. I've already done several searches and came up empty for a walk-through on this.

Thanks,

-Sean

[25b]

Well, the built-in search on here really sucks, so the best way it to go to google and type in:

site:leatherworker.net whatever you want to search for here

Probably something like "pricking iron both sides" (without the quotes) might pull them up...

And then you should be able to find the threads...they were from around 3-6 months ago, I think...if I have time later, I'll see if I can find them...I just get tired of repeating myself and also someone else explained it where it made sense better than I could in the previous threads...

I've begun pretty much exclusively using stitching chisels lately due to the cast improvement in consistency I have with them...you can do the same thing with them (punch both sides), but have to be careful to only punch through each single layer on the front and back...not all the way through.

Some jerks will probably come on here and reply saying "you can't do that", but I have proof that I can because that's the only way I sew all my hand-sewn items now and it works very, very well.

Edited September 17, 2015 by 25b

[SmokeyPoint]

I think I found the one you're referring to: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=59849&hl=%2Bpricking+%2Biron+%2Bboth+%2Bsides#entry385161

I'm all for trying unconventional methods if it gives me the results I am looking for.

To the OP...

One thing I did the other day was to take all of my new pricking irons (6-9 SPI/7-10 TPI) and all of my thread sizes (Tiger thread, .6, .8, 1.0, 1.2) and make a grid on a piece of leather. The different stitch lengths went left-to-right, and the thread sizes went top to bottom. This gave me a great visual indicator of how a stitch would look for a given thread at each stitch length. From there, I can take the item I am working on and, assuming an equal thickness of leather, find the look I am wanting. Leather thickness affects stitching results, so I intend on making more of these for different thicknesses of leather. I'll post a picture when I have time to take one.

I bring this up because I suspect that if you have only 6 SPI/7 TPI, that you may find that it is too long of a stitch length for, as you put it, "very thin leather". Longer stitch lengths tend to want thicker thread. But then again, most things in life are subjective.

Edited September 17, 2015 by SmokeyPoint

[jhw]

thanks much for replies.. i actually use 9tpi blanchards.. sorry i dont know why i put 7tpi in my original post

stitches are tiny ...use lin cable thread 632, works well on all the different kinds of thin leather i have been using so far, been side tracked recently repairing bass bag, using various samples of leather for some of the repairs.

[SmokeyPoint]

That sounds much more in line with what you describe.

As an update, I stand corrected on the portmanteau irons. As 25b described, it is indeed possible to get consistent stitching on both sides of the leather by using the same iron on both sides. As an experiment, I scribed a line on one side of the leather, poked a hole with a round awl at each end, and scribed a line between them on the back side. I then used the pricking irons to lightly mark slits on both lines, starting from the same hole front and back. Since the Blanchard irons are precision made, the slits lined up perfectly. Using a round awl and sewing without a knot produced even, consistent stitches on both sides. They didn't have as much angle to the stitches as the traditional method, but consistent angles on both sides is what I have been trying to achieve.

This falls under the "don't knock it until you try it" category.

[25b]

That sounds much more in line with what you describe.

As an update, I stand corrected on the portmanteau irons. As 25b described, it is indeed possible to get consistent stitching on both sides of the leather by using the same iron on both sides. As an experiment, I scribed a line on one side of the leather, poked a hole with a round awl at each end, and scribed a line between them on the back side. I then used the pricking irons to lightly mark slits on both lines, starting from the same hole front and back. Since the Blanchard irons are precision made, the slits lined up perfectly. Using a round awl and sewing without a knot produced even, consistent stitches on both sides. They didn't have as much angle to the stitches as the traditional method, but consistent angles on both sides is what I have been trying to achieve.

This falls under the "don't knock it until you try it" category.

Thank you for actually trying and ultimately validating what I said. There are so many people on here that just want to argue and post some knee-jerk response of "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!!" without even trying it...it's refreshing when someone takes what I post at face value and then finds out I'm really not full of crap.

So...thanks again for that... I'm glad it works for you...

[jhw]

thanks smokeypoint, appreciate you posting your results, you've inspired me to do some testing on some scraps i have of the thin leather i have for the bag i am working on..well which i hope to get back to working on. side note, my pricking irons on careful examination did not seem to pick up any sticky residue from tape (when i used my irons incorrectly that is)

ps i did borrow the book mentioned in an earlier post by 25b from the library. it goes over how to make reinforced aka bound edges very briefly, again i will need to experiment and hope i dont run out of scrap leather (:

Edited September 18, 2015 by jhw

[DavidL]

The same iron on both sides works well. Only downside is that its difficult to align the first hole seeing as it is the opposite orientation on either side. Once you get it right it works fine the entire length of stitching.

Do you glue the pieces then do the method. The two marks make an exact X?

I tend to now do regular stitching but im open to try the other method again.

[25b]

This may not work for you, but I line up the front and back pieces, hit my stitching chisel so it goes through the front and just barely into the back side of the bottom layer.

Then, I can usually see the center points through the front side of the bottom layer and I line up the stiching chisel and punch the rest after lining up that way.

Edited September 20, 2015 by 25b

[DavidL]

that makes sense I will try it out on a scrap. I did this method without glueing first and it was super difficult to get 3 pieces to sit flush.

There are so many variables that one way doesnt work out with the same technique. The results are slightly different with thicker leather since the prongs widen the hole too much in my opinion hitting it all the way through. In my opinion I believe this method is best if you want to make something small that you want to cut down on time since you dont have to angle the awl perfectly, just through the hole on the back and front.

[25b]

The results are slightly different with thicker leather since the prongs widen the hole too much in my opinion hitting it all the way through.

You don't do this with pricking irons, ok??? I'm talking about using stitching chisels --- the prongs on those are the same width all the way up so the holes DO NOT get bigger the farther in they go, alright? This method is for stitching chisels only...not for pricking irons...unless you're very, very careful to only mark the other layers. Edited September 20, 2015 by 25b

[SmokeyPoint]

Ok, now you lost me. The OP and I were specifically discussing Blanchards, which are European style pricking irons. I did achieve good results that way, but it took a lot of time and care. Not something for every project, but a great tool to have in the chest.

Now that I realize you meant stitching chisels, I've been doing that for some time. Only way to avoid the splatter look on the back.

[25b]

I was specifically addressing what davidl was saying about the holes getting bigger if you use them on both sides of your work. You *can* do this, but you shouldn't be hammering the crap out of the irons anyway......if you just use them to *mark* the stitches and use your awl to open them up, then either pricking irons or stitching chisels will work well this way. But if you're whacking the #### out of them so that the holes are getting bigger, then you're not using them correctly.

That's all I was saying and I think I clarified in the last part of the last sentence in my previous post.