Strength testing trees

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

OK. Time to dream here. We are curious as to what all the experienced people out there may have thought of doing to saddle trees to check them out. What type of tests do you think would most realistically test the strength of a tree to withstand what it would under steady, proper use?

And, not to hijack the thread too much, what kinds of wrecks have you had/heard of and how did the tree fair in them? What were the weak points?

[JRedding]

Rod, I've never spent time thinking how to deliberately break a tree just to see how strong it was so I guess I can't help you there, I don't beleive I've ever had a good quality tree just break under normal conditions, I don't build steer trippin' saddles and I've heard from some of the Texas makers I know say it will happen there. I've been told several times a tree just broke, It's kind of funny the few broken trees I've had usually come in with the same story attached, " I just roped this old cow and heard it snap, so I brought it in" the funny part about hearing this same story is one guy I know well enough to know he couldn't rope a cow unless he ran her out of air and she laid down, but that's the story he brought in. I had one guy that was breaking them intentionally about once a year I think so he could trade it in broke and order a new saddle, the broken tree was to justify the trade to his wife I beleive, I had this happen four years in a row with this guy, one of them came back with tire tracks on it. The only guy I'm sure told me the entire story lost a horse over a ledge while leading him up a steep slope in the wilderness unit of the Book Cliffs near here, about eighty feet they said, and nothing faired very well, lost a horse, saddle, and a new Weatherby rifle, they hauled that saddle back up but it was a waste of time, the leathers weren't really worth salvaging and the tree was broke in pieces from about kindling down to matchsticks.

Most of the broken trees I've had it was pretty apparant by the fresh damage on the horn and cantle they'd had a horse on his back, and they're usually broke in the bars right under the stirrup leathers. I'd say saddletrees get a good, realistic, test daily to prove themselves under steady proper use, the number of trees you, or any good treemaker has put out there and the number of broken trees that resulted from something other than a wreck, pretty much speaks for itself, and there's nothing a treemaker can do to avoid ever having a broken tree come out of a wreck.

[Hidemechanic]

Rod, I agree with JR that crash and burns are beyond the perview of the tree maker to be responsible for tree damage. That's like saying there is some maufacture's defect because my Ford got totaled when it got wrapped around a tree.

Too many saddles have been worked to death and the trees have held up well, infact most of those trees have out lived the saddlemaker's work.

The damage I have seen from typical use;

-Horse being loaded into a trailer with a saddle on, horn hit the top of the trailer.

-Runaway horses through the woods.

-Roll overs or fall backwards on a saddle.

-Getting stopped when the saddle was on the ground.

One runaway the horn and swell hit a number of low branches, the horn only recieved damage.

" " " " " the bar cracked at the stuirrup slot.

Frankly the others, roll overs and stomps the same damage occured for the most part.

Stirrup slots.

In some very old trees 80yrs+with the dovetailed cantle and swell were knocked lose and tore some rawhide but the saddles were still in service, just noticed that they had some give when you test for broken tree.

Many of the broken bars I have seen were broken where you could see that the saddlemaker had scoared the rawhide when cutting stirrup slots. That part of the rawhide was almost always torn with a big crack in the bar very near it.

So as for the weak spot of a saddle tree I would say is the stirrup slot or the narrowest part of the bars.

As for testing. I have seen pics of a mfg. using an apparatis like an arbor press. With gauges to record #, presure was applied at the bars in the seat, I believe the ends of the bars were blocked up to bridge the center.

Downward pressure in the middle of the swell.

The bars were afixed to a base and forward tension was placed on the horn as though dallied up.

Sorry I don't recall any numbers from the conclution of these tests.

But going back to what JR was eluding to, rawhide trees have been made for at least a couple hundred years, in the past hundred there has been some inovation with the structural improvement of the western saddle tree and those that were built in a quality manor have held up quite well when used for the purpose for which the were made.

I think the trees that need testing are the ones in which design and materials have been changed from the traditional.

I look forward to hearing the coments of others. GH

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

We have seen the youtube video of a test being done on a fiberglassed tree where they lashed the tree down to a stand front and back then pulled with slowly increasing pressure forward on the horn (as if you were holding an animal) to see when it broke. But maybe a more realistic test would be a “jerk test” as happens when the animal hits the end of the rope when first caught. I would think some of these “tie hard and fast” ropers who doctor cows out on pasture give their saddles a real workout in that way. I wonder how something like fiberglass stands up to that use.

In talking with some experienced saddle makers lately, it came up that bridging trees would have a lot to do with broken bars. The rider’s weight being hung totally on an unsupported bar would put a lot of strain on it that wouldn’t occur it the tree contacted the horse’s back full length. If only one bar is broken, has anyone noticed if it is more often the left or the right?

As for wrecks, they will happen, and you can’t guarantee against them. We don’t say you can’t break one of our trees, but we do want to hear the story, because it will be entertaining.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[STPENNER]

I have never done anything to test a trees strength, intentionally. However, I spent a summer many moons ago wrangling for a hunting outfit in the Yukon Territories, and have a couple of stories. I had a 4 yr old black mare in my string that had not been ridden much. I saddled her up and led her out of camp. Up until this point everything had gone fine. As I threw a leg over, she decided not to co-operate anymore. I stayed in the middle long enough for her to turn around and head back to camp at a high rate of speed. As I hung on contemplating my immediate future I noticed she was heading straight for the washline.( a half inch rope strung between two large trees) I quickly realized that I no longer wanted to ride her that badly and checked out, hitting one of the trees in mid air. She proceeded to run under the wash line which caught the horn and ripped the rigging clean out of the tree and the saddle from her back. On another occasion the same mare reared on me, and being somewhat stubborn I was reluctant to let her win in this manner. Well, she was apparrently more stubborn than I was because she went right over on me. I kicked out just in time, landed on my back and rolled, she landed right square on her back on top of the saddle. Surprisingly, nothing broke that time. I've spent a fair number of hours in the saddle, and roped the odd cow , but that mare going under the washline was the only time I ever saw a tree break, and it was a sight to see, I'm just glad I gave up my front row seat for that one.

[David Genadek]

The University of Winona has all the equipment to do all the standard stress tests. When I'm flush and can afford to destroy a bunch of trees I think I will try to get some real numbers on these things.

We are all deluded if we think we can build a saddle that a horse can't tear apart at will.

David Genadek

[Romey]

This is a interesting subject to me as its somthing i have often wondered about. I have seen and been involved with some wrecks that went from mild to pretty serious, I have seen horses roll lateraly end over end, a couple times with me in the seat and various things like that, I have yet broken a tree or seen anyone in person break one, but have seen a few old saddles with broken trees and recently some new custom saddles that were made very well. I have roped critters and seen some roped that makes me wonder why the horn dont pop right off though I lend that to roping skill and horsemanship partially as to why it dont.

So in light of all that I have sometimes wondered if the wood, perhaps having a hidden flaw in the grain or perhaps certian pressure along a certain grain of the wood could cause that to break where the next one didnt. It SEEMS to me to be soemthing along the freakish line to break a tree from use , even hard use, Alot of cowboyin has been done in the past and alot of wrecks on saddles like Circle Y, old Herefords and the likes that took the same pounding other even custom saddles didnt make it through. Like I say given the quality differance in craftmanship those cheaper saddles compared to new ones I have wondered if its really a question of use, craftmanship or simply somthing unavoidable like wood having a microfracture or somthing just because its wood and cant be seen on the inside. Not sure if im being clear here or simply way off base but just thoughts i have had about the subject.

[kseidel]

It has always impressed me how well trees endure abuse, even the poorly built ones! Sometimes a horse will be killed during a wreck and the tree will not break. I have seen horses take jerks from roped livestock that took months of therapy to restore the horse to health, and the saddle suffer no damage. For nearly twenty years, I kept a log of every saddle that I personally worked on that had a broken tree or had a tree that was damaged and required repair to resume normal use. In every single case, 100 percent, for nearly twenty years, hundreds of saddles, THE DAMAGE WAS CAUSED BY THE SADDLEMAKER!!! Some were custom made, some factory. Some were expensive, some cheap. Some were very well made by very reputable saddlemakers. In all cases, the rawhide had been cut thru or scored across the stress area eventually allowing the rawhide to separate and allow the wooden tree to break. Sometimes the lace was sanded or scratched off the outside surface. as time passed the rawhide shrank away and was no longer a tight case over the wood. When the stress is great enough to bend the farther than the wood can bear, it will break without the strength of the rawhide to keep it from bending too far. The same principle should apply to trees covered with fiberglass or bed liner.

Conclusion: Saddlemakers, be careful! If you musr cut into a tree, be carefull not to score the hide. Even a little score can cause a break. When you ruff the hide to make the glue stick, do not scrape across the areas that endure stress. Use extra caution around the stirrup leather slots, under the gullet, under the cantle, and behind the swell at the bars.

[Romey]

this brings up somthing in my mind that i know has been talked about a bit and thatd drilling holes for strings, now i said before and will again, im not saddlemaker and my job is the top side of the leather . But i had a wonder on drilled trees, not so much about the stregnth altho i do belive now that that can be a weak point but my thought was about moisture getting inside, Isnt part of the reason to laqure trees as a barrier and if so, drilling holes defeats that purpose? Granted good padding will prevent this but what about when its not on a horse, being rained on be it on a horse or in back of a truck. Is it not possible for it to rot?