Interesting video on luxury goods

[esantoro]

Interesting video on luxury goods:

Ed

[ENT]

That was an interesting talk about luxury goods and the dumbing down of the market. Gotta love corporate greed. It does give one hope for making a living in the handmade goods market, though. Thanks for posting it.

[esantoro]

That was an interesting talk about luxury goods and the dumbing down of the market. Gotta love corporate greed. It does give one hope for making a living in the handmade goods market, though. Thanks for posting it.

That dumbing down evident in the luxury goods market spreads across education, medicine, business, journalism, religion, the whole spectrum of society. Basically it boils down to the less people really know and understand the more easily they will part with greater amounts of income.

The video makes it seem like a very good idea for a grass roots collective to rise up and seriously challenge the name brands. I don't think it's such a Quixotic idea. Such a grass roots collective could could use the name brands against themselves, linking to articles, video, and audio about the reality of the business. Eighty percent of the high-end products are not produced differently from the counterfeited merchandise.

I think that it is impossible not to lose something when you move away from one craftsperson working on the entire article to an assembly line of trained low-wage workers with narrow skills.

Ed

[JohnBarton]

That dumbing down evident in the luxury goods market spreads across education, medicine, business, journalism, religion, the whole spectrum of society. Basically it boils down to the less people really know and understand the more easily they will part with greater amounts of income.

The video makes it seem like a very good idea for a grass roots collective to rise up and seriously challenge the name brands. I don't think it's such a Quixotic idea. Such a grass roots collective could could use the name brands against themselves, linking to articles, video, and audio about the reality of the business. Eighty percent of the high-end products are not produced differently from the counterfeited merchandise.

I think that it is impossible not to lose something when you move away from one craftsperson working on the entire article to an assembly line of trained low-wage workers with narrow skills.

Ed

Where do get the statistic that "80% of the high end products are not produced differently from the counterfeited merchandise" ?

I haven't watched the video and can't comment on it's content yet. What you have said above though doesn't ring true in my experience. What is my experience you might ask? It's in the making of leather goods, primarily cue cases, through my own small shop and through workshops and factories in Germany, Turkey, The Czech Republic, Taiwan and now China.

I see a lot of myth and misconception on this issue. Seriously.

I can appreciate your point of view because I have been there as the single craftsperson working on the item and I can also speak from the point of view as the person who has goods made in a factory with 20 people working on my products.

Now, the question is what is "high end"?

Well made products are not necessarily "high end" and expensive brand name products are not always "well made". That's pretty much a given and is the source of a lot of the market myths and also the ability to shape perception with clever marketing.

You are right about education. The thing is that marketers know that people prefer to be entertained and flattered on a social scale and that they prefer honesty on a individual level. That is why brands like Gucci don't market the "quality" in their bags but instead the "lifestyle" that Gucci represents.

Now coming back to your 80% comment, it's not true in my experience, easily 95% of counterfeit items bearing name brands are not made near to the quality of the well made "high end" brand bags. Where I go to shop at the leather market in Guangzhou, China there are wholesale markets filled with factory stores selling knockoffs and there are several levels of suppliers. The top level is in a fancier indoor mall where the samples are fairly well done but when you look closely you can see several key issues. The midrange level is in a less fancy indoor mall which is mainly filled with domestic brands and some knockoffs and the lowest level is an open storefront type market which is mostly comprised of factory stores and dealers who buy from those factory stores. The quality of the goods at the first two levels is decent but not what I would consider to be excellent. The quality at the lower level is appalling.

However sometimes you find a domestic brand whose goods are original designs (mostly) and whose quality is very good. But this is the exception rather than the rule.

The myth is that the knockoffs and the originals are all made on the same line. They aren't. There are thousands of factories in China who are busy knocking off brand name bags and even worse they are just plain stealing the brand name itself by plopping it on designs that the brand name doesn't even do. These factories have nothing to do with the owner of the brand name and are not authorized to make any goods bearing that name. Now, having said all that there ARE factories that will offer you several quality levels and are not shy about it. They will show three bags that "look" the same but have three different prices and the highest priced one will be well made. The reason it will be well made is because it will have been made using the most experienced sewers, turners, and other people that the factory has and made at a slower pace with much more quality control. Those knockoffs are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing and I suspect that they are often mixed in with the real thing by high end retailers. But I guarantee you that the best quality and lowest quality aren't coming off the same line at the same time and in my experience aren't even made by the same people.

We all hear stories of "real" goods that leak out of the official factory. In that case the goods are identical to the ones on the store shelf. They are also priced much higher than the knockoff you find on the street.

So this brings us to the idea that you lose something when the goods aren't made by just one person from start to finish. Yes you do lose something but it's not prestige or quality, you lose some control over your goods. The reason is that it's nearly impossible to inspect every detail on every bag that your people make because by doing so you are spending nearly as much time as if you had done the work yourself. So at some point you have trust that the stitching was done the way you want it, that the rivets were set correctly, and so on. And the more people you add to the process the more opportunity for mistake there are because not every person working for you shares your passion for what you do - you would hope they do, but unless they are also sharing in the profit or have some other benefit then they are unlikely to see it as anything more than just a job.

That doesn't mean however that well made and high end goods can't come from shops which have more than one person doing the work. We all know that some shops excel at putting out very well made and high end goods despite the fact that they have a whole slew of folks working on them. This company makes some of the very best bags on the planet Earth, i have used (abused) mine for 8 years now and not even a stitch has come loose anywhere on it www.timbuk2.com - these are custom production bags.

Anyway, I can wax on for hours on these topics as I find them to be highly interesting (I spend a lot of time in my head thinking about how the world works). I started in this business when I was 20 and was visiting factories when I was 21. I worked on an assembly line for Kimberly Clark, have been in the military, been a professional diver and traveled the world. My views on a lot of things have changed over the years as my real world experience on both sides has grown. Due to the way I grew up in what can best be described as a modern nomad I would like to think that I came to business without prejudice and also a lot of naivete'. I often find that the facts are far more complex and interesting than myth and stereotype. China is proving to be far deeper and complex than I thought it would be. There is no stereotype of belief about China and Chinese production that is not true and false at the same time due to the depth of this culture.

[esantoro]

Hi John,

I readily, willingly, and joyfully defer to your experience. Beautiful post in the way you juxtaposed factory- produced goods and single craftsperson-produced goods.

By "80 percent of high-end goods" I meant 80 percent of name brand goods, many of which are perceived as high-end goods, "high-end" meaning quality in both construction and style. This was mostly my own perception (picking 80 percent as a general figure) and from what I had garnered from a few people in the fashion industry. But, again, I defer to your experience.

I really like the way you laid out the difference between an item made by a single person and that made on an assembly line. When one person makes the item, she becomes intimate with the nuances of all the various sections and pieces and makes all sorts of necessary subtle adjustments that only familiarity with the material for that particular item can dictate. And then, as you say, there is the issue of personal investment in the construction of the item.

ed

Where do get the statistic that "80% of the high end products are not produced differently from the counterfeited merchandise" ?

I haven't watched the video and can't comment on it's content yet. What you have said above though doesn't ring true in my experience. What is my experience you might ask? It's in the making of leather goods, primarily cue cases, through my own small shop and through workshops and factories in Germany, Turkey, The Czech Republic, Taiwan and now China.

I see a lot of myth and misconception on this issue. Seriously.

I can appreciate your point of view because I have been there as the single craftsperson working on the item and I can also speak from the point of view as the person who has goods made in a factory with 20 people working on my products.

Now, the question is what is "high end"?

Well made products are not necessarily "high end" and expensive brand name products are not always "well made". That's pretty much a given and is the source of a lot of the market myths and also the ability to shape perception with clever marketing.

You are right about education. The thing is that marketers know that people prefer to be entertained and flattered on a social scale and that they prefer honesty on a individual level. That is why brands like Gucci don't market the "quality" in their bags but instead the "lifestyle" that Gucci represents.

Now coming back to your 80% comment, it's not true in my experience, easily 95% of counterfeit items bearing name brands are not made near to the quality of the well made "high end" brand bags. Where I go to shop at the leather market in Guangzhou, China there are wholesale markets filled with factory stores selling knockoffs and there are several levels of suppliers. The top level is in a fancier indoor mall where the samples are fairly well done but when you look closely you can see several key issues. The midrange level is in a less fancy indoor mall which is mainly filled with domestic brands and some knockoffs and the lowest level is an open storefront type market which is mostly comprised of factory stores and dealers who buy from those factory stores. The quality of the goods at the first two levels is decent but not what I would consider to be excellent. The quality at the lower level is appalling.

However sometimes you find a domestic brand whose goods are original designs (mostly) and whose quality is very good. But this is the exception rather than the rule.

The myth is that the knockoffs and the originals are all made on the same line. They aren't. There are thousands of factories in China who are busy knocking off brand name bags and even worse they are just plain stealing the brand name itself by plopping it on designs that the brand name doesn't even do. These factories have nothing to do with the owner of the brand name and are not authorized to make any goods bearing that name. Now, having said all that there ARE factories that will offer you several quality levels and are not shy about it. They will show three bags that "look" the same but have three different prices and the highest priced one will be well made. The reason it will be well made is because it will have been made using the most experienced sewers, turners, and other people that the factory has and made at a slower pace with much more quality control. Those knockoffs are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing and I suspect that they are often mixed in with the real thing by high end retailers. But I guarantee you that the best quality and lowest quality aren't coming off the same line at the same time and in my experience aren't even made by the same people.

We all hear stories of "real" goods that leak out of the official factory. In that case the goods are identical to the ones on the store shelf. They are also priced much higher than the knockoff you find on the street.

So this brings us to the idea that you lose something when the goods aren't made by just one person from start to finish. Yes you do lose something but it's not prestige or quality, you lose some control over your goods. The reason is that it's nearly impossible to inspect every detail on every bag that your people make because by doing so you are spending nearly as much time as if you had done the work yourself. So at some point you have trust that the stitching was done the way you want it, that the rivets were set correctly, and so on. And the more people you add to the process the more opportunity for mistake there are because not every person working for you shares your passion for what you do - you would hope they do, but unless they are also sharing in the profit or have some other benefit then they are unlikely to see it as anything more than just a job.

That doesn't mean however that well made and high end goods can't come from shops which have more than one person doing the work. We all know that some shops excel at putting out very well made and high end goods despite the fact that they have a whole slew of folks working on them. This company makes some of the very best bags on the planet Earth, i have used (abused) mine for 8 years now and not even a stitch has come loose anywhere on it www.timbuk2.com - these are custom production bags.

Anyway, I can wax on for hours on these topics as I find them to be highly interesting (I spend a lot of time in my head thinking about how the world works). I started in this business when I was 20 and was visiting factories when I was 21. I worked on an assembly line for Kimberly Clark, have been in the military, been a professional diver and traveled the world. My views on a lot of things have changed over the years as my real world experience on both sides has grown. Due to the way I grew up in what can best be described as a modern nomad I would like to think that I came to business without prejudice and also a lot of naivete'. I often find that the facts are far more complex and interesting than myth and stereotype. China is proving to be far deeper and complex than I thought it would be. There is no stereotype of belief about China and Chinese production that is not true and false at the same time due to the depth of this culture.

[JohnBarton]

Ed,

Thank you for the link to the video. I agree with almost everything that Dana Thomas has said. I especially agree with her assertion that counterfeit goods fund bad people and bad practices. When I go to the accessories market in Guangzhou I see that you can buy metal logos from a 100 vendors with any brand name you want. Personally if they would make the counterfeiting of goods punishable by death then that would stop most of it right now. But unfortunately too many people see it as a victimless crime.

I love her description of the "purse party" women when she called them the drug dealers of fashion.

About the only thing I disagree with Dana on is that individual craftspeople have disappeared. Maybe they are not high profile but they are there. People like you and most of the folks on this board. Workshops like mine with a small number of people doing custom work, and high end boutique brands that don't sell out to the larger marketing machine. I think that craftspeople are around and that with the advent of the internet the playing field is somewhat leveled for them to be able to bring their handcrafted goods to the world.

[esantoro]

Dana does talk about the small time craftspersons as working against the grain of mass-produced "high-end." She still focuses on designers who have some exposure and who may no longer be involved in the construction of their goods . It would have been nice had she researched very small time operators.

Back to the "80%" comment with which you disagreed with. When I go into a department store in Manhattan, or anywhere in the US, and see a handbag selling for $300 or less, the construction quality of that bag seems to be on par with what one can get for $20 to $50 on one of those NYC streets that have bags flowing over the tops of boxes marked "China". Perhaps the materials in the $300 bag are a bit better, but construction quality of the two seems very similar.

Some of the bags in these shops look quite nice, and on more than one occasion I've had the thought to buy one for $20 to take apart and reconstruct with the best materials and construction methods.

I also think that Louis Vuitton in the 1840's making his own luggage with his own hands is going to be different from his grandchildren and great grandchildren running the business with absolutely zero calluses on their hands (my conjecture). The individual craftspeson, I think, is driven by more than just a business model, though business and sales are still wanted and desired, and that drive is going to come out in the crafted goods.

Maybe we should start a thread where we put our individually crafted goods up against mass-produced goods that are perceived as quality in the market place. For example, I'm always looking at bags by Ghurka, Swaine Addeney Brigg, and Mulholland Brothers. The first two I think are "High-End" and are exemplars of quality craftsmanship. You can take one look at Mulholland Brothers bags and notice things that just don't seem right: flimsy material, sagging corners, leather without body, etc. Even a good look at a Filson bag leaves much to be desired.

ed

Ed,

Thank you for the link to the video. I agree with almost everything that Dana Thomas has said. I especially agree with her assertion that counterfeit goods fund bad people and bad practices. When I go to the accessories market in Guangzhou I see that you can buy metal logos from a 100 vendors with any brand name you want. Personally if they would make the counterfeiting of goods punishable by death then that would stop most of it right now. But unfortunately too many people see it as a victimless crime.

I love her description of the "purse party" women when she called them the drug dealers of fashion.

About the only thing I disagree with Dana on is that individual craftspeople have disappeared. Maybe they are not high profile but they are there. People like you and most of the folks on this board. Workshops like mine with a small number of people doing custom work, and high end boutique brands that don't sell out to the larger marketing machine. I think that craftspeople are around and that with the advent of the internet the playing field is somewhat leveled for them to be able to bring their handcrafted goods to the world.

[JohnBarton]

Ed,

I am HUGE advocate of having a repository where QUALITY is defined by experts in the subject.

There is an organization called the ACA which stands for American Cuemaker's Association. I used to belong to it as a merchandising member. Back in the mid-90s I was attending a meeting of the ACA and one of the members was pitching a new organization called the ABM which stood for American Billiard Manufacturer's Associaton. The meat of the pitch was that anyone belonging to the ABM would get to put little red,white, and blue ABM stickers on their products.

I stood up and said that the ACA didn't need to be a part of the ABA because a little sticker that amounted to "made in USA" wasn't really what most customers are looking for. I said that the ACA should make it's own sticker that identify's the cues bearing it as having the quality standard as set by the ACA. I said they should make a poster that can hang in every pool room and billiard supply place that clearly defines what quality in a pool cue is and make sure that it's clearly tied to the ACA's little sticker.

Who better to define what makes a good pool cue than the collective members of a cuemaking guild whose average cue costs more than a $1000? Did they ever do it? Nah. Nor did the ABM fly either. Instead they just spend their time complaining about not being able to compete with decaled imports.

I would LOVE to see something on this board or somewhere that takes leather goods and dissects them to define what QUALITY is in terms of construction.

The upside of it is that there would be a defintive library of images and descriptions that could be used as a resouce by all. Any of us could link to it and point our customers to a place where experts agree on what the standard of quality should be for various types of goods. The consumer would get a good education and leatherworkers and even factories would have a guide to what they "should" be doing if they want to meet the standard of quality set by the best in the industry. I bet that with enough of us linking to the resource that it would come up in the top ten on just about any leather goods related search which would be awesome. Because then literally millions would read it year after year.

So yeah, great idea, where and how do we start? Should I send you a bunch of random bags bought at the market here?

Getting back to the idea that 80% of department store bags are made as badly as what you find at the street vendors. There is no doubt that there is a lot of overlap but what I got from your point was that you meant that the so-called high end bags such as Prada and Coach weren't any better than what you find on the street. I have inspected a lot of these bags very carefully in both the high end places and at street markets from Turkey to China. I am sure that you are like me in that you are always looking at handbags, briefcases, luggage, backpacks and so on to get ideas or compare what you do to theirs. It truly pains me to see a purse selling for $3000 when I put so much more into my cue cases and feel guilty if I ask for $600. But getting back to the point, especially since I have been in China I see the flaws and shortcuts in the street versions (knockoffs). So while neither bag may be up to yours or my quality standards one is generally truly better than the other. A $1000 Tumi briefcase is well done whereas the $100 knockoff is not so well done but with just a cursory inspection it seems to be.

I too think it would have been good had she said something about the fact that there are still folks who make luxury items on a small scale. Upon reflection though I believe that her point pertains more to the fashion world where things aren't as much about utility as they are about extravagance. She is speaking of the type of shops that cater to the wealthy and ultra wealthy and who refuse to allow their brand to be splattered on just anything. Those shoes with red soles might be very well made and might be comfortable but the reason that wealthy people buy them is for the prestige of owning them not because they are the best shoes. The best shoes in the world might be made by Gepetto the shoemaker out of his house in Orlando but he sells his for $50 a pair and the red sole guy sells his for $1000 a pair and makes buying a pair of shoes an "experience".

Anyway, again thanks for the video, I will be ordering her book.

[esantoro]

John,

Like you, "Minister of Propaganda", I also like looking at the macro world through the micro and coming up with working metaphors for how the world works.

I am enjoying your posts.

Ed

Ed,

I am HUGE advocate of having a repository where QUALITY is defined by experts in the subject.

There is an organization called the ACA which stands for American Cuemaker's Association. I used to belong to it as a merchandising member. Back in the mid-90s I was attending a meeting of the ACA and one of the members was pitching a new organization called the ABM which stood for American Billiard Manufacturer's Associaton. The meat of the pitch was that anyone belonging to the ABM would get to put little red,white, and blue ABM stickers on their products.

I stood up and said that the ACA didn't need to be a part of the ABA because a little sticker that amounted to "made in USA" wasn't really what most customers are looking for. I said that the ACA should make it's own sticker that identify's the cues bearing it as having the quality standard as set by the ACA. I said they should make a poster that can hang in every pool room and billiard supply place that clearly defines what quality in a pool cue is and make sure that it's clearly tied to the ACA's little sticker.

Who better to define what makes a good pool cue than the collective members of a cuemaking guild whose average cue costs more than a $1000? Did they ever do it? Nah. Nor did the ABM fly either. Instead they just spend their time complaining about not being able to compete with decaled imports.

I would LOVE to see something on this board or somewhere that takes leather goods and dissects them to define what QUALITY is in terms of construction.

The upside of it is that there would be a defintive library of images and descriptions that could be used as a resouce by all. Any of us could link to it and point our customers to a place where experts agree on what the standard of quality should be for various types of goods. The consumer would get a good education and leatherworkers and even factories would have a guide to what they "should" be doing if they want to meet the standard of quality set by the best in the industry. I bet that with enough of us linking to the resource that it would come up in the top ten on just about any leather goods related search which would be awesome. Because then literally millions would read it year after year.

So yeah, great idea, where and how do we start? Should I send you a bunch of random bags bought at the market here?

Getting back to the idea that 80% of department store bags are made as badly as what you find at the street vendors. There is no doubt that there is a lot of overlap but what I got from your point was that you meant that the so-called high end bags such as Prada and Coach weren't any better than what you find on the street. I have inspected a lot of these bags very carefully in both the high end places and at street markets from Turkey to China. I am sure that you are like me in that you are always looking at handbags, briefcases, luggage, backpacks and so on to get ideas or compare what you do to theirs. It truly pains me to see a purse selling for $3000 when I put so much more into my cue cases and feel guilty if I ask for $600. But getting back to the point, especially since I have been in China I see the flaws and shortcuts in the street versions (knockoffs). So while neither bag may be up to yours or my quality standards one is generally truly better than the other. A $1000 Tumi briefcase is well done whereas the $100 knockoff is not so well done but with just a cursory inspection it seems to be.

I too think it would have been good had she said something about the fact that there are still folks who make luxury items on a small scale. Upon reflection though I believe that her point pertains more to the fashion world where things aren't as much about utility as they are about extravagance. She is speaking of the type of shops that cater to the wealthy and ultra wealthy and who refuse to allow their brand to be splattered on just anything. Those shoes with red soles might be very well made and might be comfortable but the reason that wealthy people buy them is for the prestige of owning them not because they are the best shoes. The best shoes in the world might be made by Gepetto the shoemaker out of his house in Orlando but he sells his for $50 a pair and the red sole guy sells his for $1000 a pair and makes buying a pair of shoes an "experience".

Anyway, again thanks for the video, I will be ordering her book.

Edited February 3, 2009 by esantoro

[esantoro]

Here's an article I came across that relates to this thread:

http://www.sweatfree.org/news_LAT-2-20-08

ed

Where do get the statistic that "80% of the high end products are not produced differently from the counterfeited merchandise" ?

I haven't watched the video and can't comment on it's content yet. What you have said above though doesn't ring true in my experience. What is my experience you might ask? It's in the making of leather goods, primarily cue cases, through my own small shop and through workshops and factories in Germany, Turkey, The Czech Republic, Taiwan and now China.

I see a lot of myth and misconception on this issue. Seriously.

I can appreciate your point of view because I have been there as the single craftsperson working on the item and I can also speak from the point of view as the person who has goods made in a factory with 20 people working on my products.

Now, the question is what is "high end"?

Well made products are not necessarily "high end" and expensive brand name products are not always "well made". That's pretty much a given and is the source of a lot of the market myths and also the ability to shape perception with clever marketing.

You are right about education. The thing is that marketers know that people prefer to be entertained and flattered on a social scale and that they prefer honesty on a individual level. That is why brands like Gucci don't market the "quality" in their bags but instead the "lifestyle" that Gucci represents.

Now coming back to your 80% comment, it's not true in my experience, easily 95% of counterfeit items bearing name brands are not made near to the quality of the well made "high end" brand bags. Where I go to shop at the leather market in Guangzhou, China there are wholesale markets filled with factory stores selling knockoffs and there are several levels of suppliers. The top level is in a fancier indoor mall where the samples are fairly well done but when you look closely you can see several key issues. The midrange level is in a less fancy indoor mall which is mainly filled with domestic brands and some knockoffs and the lowest level is an open storefront type market which is mostly comprised of factory stores and dealers who buy from those factory stores. The quality of the goods at the first two levels is decent but not what I would consider to be excellent. The quality at the lower level is appalling.

However sometimes you find a domestic brand whose goods are original designs (mostly) and whose quality is very good. But this is the exception rather than the rule.

The myth is that the knockoffs and the originals are all made on the same line. They aren't. There are thousands of factories in China who are busy knocking off brand name bags and even worse they are just plain stealing the brand name itself by plopping it on designs that the brand name doesn't even do. These factories have nothing to do with the owner of the brand name and are not authorized to make any goods bearing that name. Now, having said all that there ARE factories that will offer you several quality levels and are not shy about it. They will show three bags that "look" the same but have three different prices and the highest priced one will be well made. The reason it will be well made is because it will have been made using the most experienced sewers, turners, and other people that the factory has and made at a slower pace with much more quality control. Those knockoffs are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing and I suspect that they are often mixed in with the real thing by high end retailers. But I guarantee you that the best quality and lowest quality aren't coming off the same line at the same time and in my experience aren't even made by the same people.

We all hear stories of "real" goods that leak out of the official factory. In that case the goods are identical to the ones on the store shelf. They are also priced much higher than the knockoff you find on the street.

So this brings us to the idea that you lose something when the goods aren't made by just one person from start to finish. Yes you do lose something but it's not prestige or quality, you lose some control over your goods. The reason is that it's nearly impossible to inspect every detail on every bag that your people make because by doing so you are spending nearly as much time as if you had done the work yourself. So at some point you have trust that the stitching was done the way you want it, that the rivets were set correctly, and so on. And the more people you add to the process the more opportunity for mistake there are because not every person working for you shares your passion for what you do - you would hope they do, but unless they are also sharing in the profit or have some other benefit then they are unlikely to see it as anything more than just a job.

That doesn't mean however that well made and high end goods can't come from shops which have more than one person doing the work. We all know that some shops excel at putting out very well made and high end goods despite the fact that they have a whole slew of folks working on them. This company makes some of the very best bags on the planet Earth, i have used (abused) mine for 8 years now and not even a stitch has come loose anywhere on it www.timbuk2.com - these are custom production bags.

Anyway, I can wax on for hours on these topics as I find them to be highly interesting (I spend a lot of time in my head thinking about how the world works). I started in this business when I was 20 and was visiting factories when I was 21. I worked on an assembly line for Kimberly Clark, have been in the military, been a professional diver and traveled the world. My views on a lot of things have changed over the years as my real world experience on both sides has grown. Due to the way I grew up in what can best be described as a modern nomad I would like to think that I came to business without prejudice and also a lot of naivete'. I often find that the facts are far more complex and interesting than myth and stereotype. China is proving to be far deeper and complex than I thought it would be. There is no stereotype of belief about China and Chinese production that is not true and false at the same time due to the depth of this culture.

[tonyc1]

They are everywhere,Ed. Just think how many there would be if they had discovered America or Australia!

Tony.

[JohnBarton]

Sweatshops like these are everywhere for sure. In a lot of ways they are far worse than anything you find in China because the Chinese are not alone here, they have family and friends. In New York, Los Angeles, Italy, and wherever else that you find these illegal and semi-legal factories the workers are literally indentured servants. They are coerced with the fear of deportation, threats to family back in China, and so on. The same thing applies to sweatshops staffed with immigrants of all kinds.

In China it is illegal to extort people like this and if caught a factory owner can be sentenced to death or prison.

Still, humans have shown an infinite capacity to degrade other humans in far sicker ways than any other animals ever could. It's the darkside of intelligence.

The root of the problem is the fact that so many of us are defined by the brands we own and so to keep up appearances we buy fakes that we can afford. And it's compounded by the fact that so many brand owners splash their brand on everything so that consumers come to expect it to be on everything. Thus no one really knows what is "fake" and what is "real" anymore when it comes to brands. If I see a pair of Nike shoes on sale at a street vendor's stall then I can probably figure that they are fake. But if I see them on someone's feet I have no idea if they are real or fake and I just say nice shoes dude.

So what is the answer?

Who knows. Don't buy brands unless you are 100% sure you can believe in them. Unless you are sure that they all are sweatshop-free. But how do you do this? I sure don't know.

We Americans imported Chinese sweat labor to build our railroads. We import sweat labor to harvest and process our food. I guess that we can't really fault people for doing whatever they can to survive and try to better their lives even if it's to effectively sell themselves into modern slavery.

And what about the slavers, the ones who trick workers into illegally immigrating? The ones who promise the moon?

Well, until all the industrialized nations of the world make brand theft a crime that is equal to theft otherwise then it will never stop. Until someone faces prison for making, importing, and selling copies of my goods and theft of my brands it will never stop.

So you can rail about it, denounce the players, cry about unfair competition, and be outraged but the fact is sadly that this is really bigger than all of us and goes to the heart of society's collective need to be accepted. Until the majority of people stop buying brands to feel better then the flow of fakes and the sweatshop labor needed to make them won't cease.

Sound familiar. Substitute drugs for brands in this conversation and you can see why it's too big to stop. Brand name stuff is legal.

:-)

[Kustom]

I went to "Coach" and the stuff I saw said it was made in India.

[JohnBarton]

I went to "Coach" and the stuff I saw said it was made in India.

It is not the making in India, China, Bangladesh, etc... that is the problem - high quality goods can come from anywhere. And honestly if brands didn't move their production to low cost labor lands then those low cost labor hands would just remain dirt poor and fall prey to every backwoods extortionist with enough money to buy a few sewing machines.

At least when big brands show up they raise the overall level of production and thereby empower people to gain skills and thus value in the marketplace.

The problem is of accountability of the brand owners to make sure that their products are made in a way that is consistent with basic human rights and sustainable existence AND the willingness of law enforcement and the justice system to mete out very severe penalties for brand theft.

It's a pretty easy calculation - low cost to produce vs. high retail prices equals plenty of room for unscrupulous competitors.

Morals aside why wouldn't you spend your time copying Prada bags instead of dealing drugs or some other illegal activity? If you get caught doing the Prada bags you can always wiggle out if in any number of ways and EVEN IF you are convicted you will get a slap on the wrist and be back in business tomorrow, in fact your brother has already set up another sweatshop around the corner.

Worse in my opinon are the customers for these items, and I am not talking about the single consumer, I am talking about the wholesalers who import containers of fakes.

In my industry, billiards, my signature design was ripped off blatantly and imported by all the big wholesalers. They enabled it while selling alongside the real brands. I should have sued them but they were my only source of income. So I figure that I have lost around ten million dollars in revenue, at wholesale prices, in the last 15 years due to this thievery. But I am sure it's a lot more due to all the derivatives of my design that have also made their way to the marketplace.

So, yeah, the sweatshops make these copies and offer them for sale but look at who is doing the buying. It's your Chamber of Commerce wholesale business right along side the Mafia.

A victimless crime, yeah right.

[esantoro]

If we take a Coach bag, or Ghurka bag, or Mulholland Brothers bag of today and compare it with a bag from the same company twenty or thirty years ago, will we see a difference in quality of construction? If we see a lower quality in such a company's bags today, whatever has changed in production processes in that twenty or thirty years has to have contributed to lower quality. Whether consumers care to notice such changes is another story.

I wonder if the fact that a bag is not made within the same vicinity as that of the designer, or if the designer and the craftsperson are not the same person actually leads to an inferiority in the design itself. Does the psychological makeup of those who work on an article come through in the final product?

ed

It is not the making in India, China, Bangladesh, etc... that is the problem - high quality goods can come from anywhere. And honestly if brands didn't move their production to low cost labor lands then those low cost labor hands would just remain dirt poor and fall prey to every backwoods extortionist with enough money to buy a few sewing machines.

At least when big brands show up they raise the overall level of production and thereby empower people to gain skills and thus value in the marketplace.

The problem is of accountability of the brand owners to make sure that their products are made in a way that is consistent with basic human rights and sustainable existence AND the willingness of law enforcement and the justice system to mete out very severe penalties for brand theft.

It's a pretty easy calculation - low cost to produce vs. high retail prices equals plenty of room for unscrupulous competitors.

Morals aside why wouldn't you spend your time copying Prada bags instead of dealing drugs or some other illegal activity? If you get caught doing the Prada bags you can always wiggle out if in any number of ways and EVEN IF you are convicted you will get a slap on the wrist and be back in business tomorrow, in fact your brother has already set up another sweatshop around the corner.

Worse in my opinon are the customers for these items, and I am not talking about the single consumer, I am talking about the wholesalers who import containers of fakes.

In my industry, billiards, my signature design was ripped off blatantly and imported by all the big wholesalers. They enabled it while selling alongside the real brands. I should have sued them but they were my only source of income. So I figure that I have lost around ten million dollars in revenue, at wholesale prices, in the last 15 years due to this thievery. But I am sure it's a lot more due to all the derivatives of my design that have also made their way to the marketplace.

So, yeah, the sweatshops make these copies and offer them for sale but look at who is doing the buying. It's your Chamber of Commerce wholesale business right along side the Mafia.

A victimless crime, yeah right.

[Kustom]

I wonder if the fact that a bag is not made within the same vicinity as that of the designer, or if the designer and the craftsperson are not the same person actually leads to an inferiority in the design itself. Does the psychological makeup of those who work on an article come through in the final product?

ed

It has too, if your name's on it you're going to make sure it's good.

BTW, Ed your bags are great looking.

[JohnBarton]

I can speak from personal experience as a designer who has things made at other places. They don't respect what you expect only what you inspect.

In other words as long as I am there and watching and inspecting then my cases are done to my standards and as soon as I leave they start getting worse.

The owner of the factory nor the people working the line have any emotional involvement in the product. They have no connection to the ultimate user, they don't have to face that user so why should they care what that user thinks.

The reason anything gets worse and not better Ed is purely due to the willful ignorance of consumers willing to gobble up everything and throw it away when it breaks and go buy another one. It used to be that things were made to last and when they finally did break you repaired it.

But when consumers demand cheap and disposable then that's what they get. And the factories have figured out plenty of clever ways to cut corners to maximize their profits, the brand houses don't complain as long as it looks good.

I can't tell you the number of times I have gone into a factory and seen them doing something and been like "why???" - they either have no clue or they are deliberately doing something stupid to save time or material in order to boost their profit - and they count profit in the pennies. Where we wouldn't care if a product cost a few dollars more to make it well done - they freak out over every .25cts in cost increase.

I once saw a report that claimed the disposable society began with the introduction of the TV Dinner. Makes sense to me.

[esantoro]

Many months ago, Steve Mason posted this picture of his great grandfather's leather shop. That's the real deal, the real creature.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?a...ost&id=6038

Ed

[Kustom]

I got her book from the library. It's a really good read.

[DHauser]

So, I am guessing that the idea of a "craftsman managed" system for ranking "quality" custom leatherwork has died? I have been creating professional leather products for at least 10 years and have been looking for some association or designation that ranks the "good stuff". If I am going to place an association logo on my website I want it to mean something. Many of us have worked for years to get the products right, to create works of art vs. just a bag to carry something. I started out my business from the git go with custom leather work and custom leather work only. No mass production, just one at a time. It's been tough to grow as none of us have major marketing budgets. Personally, I would love to see a new "member managed" custom leather professional designation.