Questions about "Vinegaroon"

[waterhouse]

Hi,

I recently came across a method of turning vegtan leather black in color called vinegaroon. I'm new to this process and was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on specifically how this method is done? Perhaps point me to a FAQ or another post?

Specifically I am wondering what, roughly, the exact recipe should be. How long to soak, ect...

Thanks in advance,

Peter

www.Waterhouseleather.com

[Sawyer]

I dyed a few items including a couple of motorcycle seats with vinegaroon.

I used steel wool and white vinegar.

you need to degrease the steel wool first, i soaked mine in gasoline and burned it off,(carefully)

put it in a large plastic container ,add vinegar. wait about 4 days, and you're good to go.

Strain the solution before using.

[tashabear]

AFAIK, there is no exact recipe. Add something rusty to a gallon of white vinegar and let it sit till it's nice and dark (think strong tea). Dump in a scrap of the leather you want to use (MUST be veg-tanned!) and watch the chemical magic happen.

I used steel wool, but I haven't tried my mix for quite a while. The first time I tried it, it turned my scraps grey -- not sure if it was the steel wool or the strength of the mix, though. It was a really nice steel grey color, though. I should give it another whirl.

[Leather Bum]

Here's a good topic: Vinegaroon

L'Bum

[ChuckBurrows]

The first time I tried it, it turned my scraps grey

yep - my main reason to do the baking soda "neutralizing" step - while it may not be necessary I find that it helps set the color to black and does the oiling.......

It can also depend on the tannins in the leather since the color in this case is a reaction between the iron and the tannins - if need be give it a good soak in strong black tea to add tannins.........

[MADMAX22]

AFAIK, there is no exact recipe. Add something rusty to a gallon of white vinegar and let it sit till it's nice and dark (think strong tea). Dump in a scrap of the leather you want to use (MUST be veg-tanned!) and watch the chemical magic happen.

I used steel wool, but I haven't tried my mix for quite a while. The first time I tried it, it turned my scraps grey -- not sure if it was the steel wool or the strength of the mix, though. It was a really nice steel grey color, though. I should give it another whirl.

Thats the same method I use but it sounds like you need more steel wool.

I used about 3 or 4 of the steel woolies in a gallon of vineger and I put it all in a big coffee container (plastic one). After a while the steel wool has pretty much all desolved with a few chunkies in the bottom. The solution is a nice black color now and as long as you dont have any wax or anything on the leather (wax acts like a resist) then it will turn my stuff a black to black/navy blue within a minute if not less.

Once out I usually give it a quick shake in some water/baking soda mix. Then it goes under the water for a few secs to get everything cleaned off.

After it dries off formed or not for whatever project your doing, I then have to oil it a few times. The process really pulls the oils out of the leather and gives it a waxy feel on the outside for a while. You really need to get some oil back into it.

Also remember that depending on the tannery and what they use the leather will react differently to the DIP (as I call it).

[Leather Bum]

What finishes do you all use on the leather once it has been blackened this way? Are there any issues with the regular finishes (acrylic or otherwise) not adhering to the leather properly afterwords?

I think what I'd like to achieve is the same or close to the same look as when I dye a piece black and then finish with some Satin Shene, Tan Kote, etc. I did some experimenting a little while back and found the leather seems to turn a lighter gray when it is bent, as opposed to remaining dark black as it does when using dye. Does anyone have an idea why this happens? I can oil the leather to darken it, but I absolutely do not want to over-oil while attempting this.

Basically, I'd like a good-quality, satin black -- not overly-shiny but not flat either. I don't want to have to worry about the finish looking poorly in fold areas or coming off later due to some effect of the vinegaroon process.

Others' comments on finishing vinegarooned leather would be appreciated.

Thanks everyone.

L'Bum

[calanneh]

I tried and came up with grey as well. I didn't have many rusty items laying around so I was thinking it was a strength issue as well.

I have some walnuts and vinager I am mixing up this morning to try to make a batch of brown.

William

[Leather Bum]

Well see, mine turns the leather pretty black with a couple applications. It's just that when I bend the leather after it dries, the bend area turns a lighter gray.

I don't know, maybe it was not strong enough back then -- I'll have to test it some more now. I want it to be black and stay black even when bent.

L'Bum

[MADMAX22]

Well see, mine turns the leather pretty black with a couple applications. It's just that when I bend the leather after it dries, the bend area turns a lighter gray.

I don't know, maybe it was not strong enough back then -- I'll have to test it some more now. I want it to be black and stay black even when bent.

L'Bum

Try a little more oil. I know that mine will do that and Ill just add some more oil to the areas that bend, I usually bend them and apply some oil and then they are good to go.

Its still trial and error for me but the stregth of my solution is really good and I get a nice black in about 35s to 1min of dipping.

I think the vinagaroon really draws out the oils in the leather. That and I give it a baking soda wash then a rinse so all of these probably really get rid of it. It also depends on the leather, Ive had some that got really tough afterwards and others that were nice and flexible even after all the treatment.

[dbusarow]

MADMAX22, does the baking soda wash help reduce the vinager odor?

I'll second just adding more oil to bring out the color. I have a pouch style sheath I made where stiffness wasn't important so I just dunked it in oil. The most beautiful black you could ask for.

Dan

Edited December 13, 2008 by dbusarow

[MADMAX22]

MADMAX22, does the baking soda wash help reduce the vinager odor?

I'll second just adding more oil to bring out the color. I have a pouch style sheath I made where stiffness wasn't important so I just dunked it in oil. The most beautiful black you could ask for.

Dan

It seems too, I know not doing it and the odor was pretty bad alot longer but not too seriouse. When doing the baking soda wash it makes it so that you gotta get your nose right up to the piece to get a wif of the vineger.

[Peterk]

what is the shelf life of a batch of vinagaroon?

in terms of holsters, do you have to dip dye the leather first prior to assembly and molding? Or can you finish the holster and then dip? I hand sew using waxed thread so the wax may affect the dye negatively?

Thanks.

[tashabear]

MADMAX22, does the baking soda wash help reduce the vinager odor?

I'll second just adding more oil to bring out the color. I have a pouch style sheath I made where stiffness wasn't important so I just dunked it in oil. The most beautiful black you could ask for.

Dan

It does help get the smell out, as well as neutralizing the acid in the vinegar. Then give it a water rinse and you're done.

[dbusarow]

what is the shelf life of a batch of vinagaroon?

in terms of holsters, do you have to dip dye the leather first prior to assembly and molding? Or can you finish the holster and then dip? I hand sew using waxed thread so the wax may affect the dye negatively?

Thanks.

Since you are soaking the leather in the vinagaroon and then rinsing thoroughly in water it makes sense to do it just before molding.

Waxed thread doesn't have any negative affect.

No idea on shelf life. My batch is about two months old and works great.

MADMAX22 and tashabear, thanks for the info on baking soda. I'll use it on my next one.

Dan

Edited December 14, 2008 by dbusarow

[Peterk]

Thank you dbusarow.

I searched for past posts on this subject and got more answers regarding vinegaroon and holsters, and also someone mentioning having his lasting for 6 months and still going strong, so I think I will be fine in terms of shelf life.

Will have to pick up some Vinegar since I have a brand new bag of steel wool at home not being used...

[TwinOaks]

For additional info, search "more vinegaroon questions". We got pretty detailed in the discussion, but here it is in a nutshell-

The chemical reaction between the ferric acetates and the tannins causes the leather to turn black.

The reaction also forces some of the tallows/oils in the leather to the surface, resulting in a somewhat water resistant finish.

Unfortunately, that means that the oils are no longer in the core of the leather, so adding oil or something comparable to the leather helps it. I used F. Aussie conditioner, and it has to really be rubbed in. Some have reported better conditioning results by heating the leather with a hairdryer, and it does seem to help. You're basically forcing all the oils/waxes back into the leather.

Re: baking soda. It may help with the darkening, but if there's enough reagents, the acidic nature of the vinegar is completely neutralized, and chemically speaking,a wash in tap water will suffice. The leather does like a slightly acidic environment anyway. Besides, I had a devil of a time getting a baking soda wash to even penetrate the leather, and plain water worked better.

Different tanneries use different recipes, so there may be some slight differences. I got a box of scrap from one of the members and there was IIRC, some Wicket and Craig leather in it. When vinergarooned, it turned the most awesome shade of blue- and stayed that way. If when bent, you're getting lightening of the surface, it's too dry. Add some conditioner/oil.

Note: For holsters, I paint the vinegaroon solution on with a sponge, inside and out, instead of dipping. I also wash the inside very well, and then complete wet molding the holster. Once molded, I stuff the holster with paper towels and heat the leather in a covection oven to about 140 F. This seems to be the magic temperature for hardening the leather, and some of the daily worn holsters I've made for people haven't lost shape after 6 months or so.

My Vin. mix was made in a half gallon glass jar with a plastic lid. I used white vinegar, and a handful of old nails from my work shop with a pad of burnt steel wool. After X months ('cause I forgot when I made it) it doesn't smell as bad, and still works just fine.

There is no reaction to mixing the vinegaroon with straight baking soda, which means that the acid is more or less totally neutralized.

Thank you for reading my e-book.

[tonyc1]

Does it make a diff. using brown instead of white vinegar?

Tony.

[Rhome]

Since I did these holsters in vinegaroon I do them all in it, works for me.

[BruceGibson]

Beautiful gear, Rhome!

[Rhome]

Beautiful gear, Rhome!

Thank You Bruce, I really enjoy your holsters, you do some awsome work !!!!

[andymanak]

This is a completely new idea to me so I decided to mix up a small batch to test on a few items I am working on.

I just took about a half a liter of distilled white vinegar and added a handful of rusty springs.

After about a half an hour I checked back in on it and no reaction or change at all seemed to be happening. I decided to up the temperature a bit to see if that helped and after about 2 minutes in a hot water bath the springs were covered in bubbles and gas was steadily being released. So as far as I can tell warmer conditions promote a more rapid result for making Vinegaroon.

I might be wrong though considering this is my first time, I guess I could talk to my chemistry instructors but I loathe chemistry.

[MatthewD]

yes the reaction will speed up as you warm it

Rates of Reaction will also speed up if you stir it while heating

I teach chem in HS...

[andymanak]

yes the reaction will speed up as you warm it

Rates of Reaction will also speed up if you stir it while heating

I teach chem in HS...

Thanks Matthew!

I can picture everyone in colder states than I leaving it in their cold garage or shed and getting minimal results even after a week.

Hopefully mine will be ready before that, maybe even after I fail my chem final tonight

[tashabear]

Thanks Matthew!

I can picture everyone in colder states than I leaving it in their cold garage or shed and getting minimal results even after a week.

Hopefully mine will be ready before that, maybe even after I fail my chem final tonight

Maybe it depends on what you use for a source of rust. I used steel wool, and got a reaction quite quickly. A friend of mine is a machinist, and he and his girlfriend used shavings and filings from when he drilled out some steel, and they fizzed right up and gave them a good mixture. Maybe there isn't enough rust for the volume of vinegar you're using.