Stropping Compounds

[rickdroid]

Stropping compounds have always been a mystery to me. There are a lot of sites on the internet that offer compounds but what to order/use has always been foggy to me.

I have for quite a while been getting compound from a local jewelry supply dealer, and while he has a pretty varied selection his knowledge doesn't seem any more complete than mine.

Recently I ordered some online wanting to see how what the differences might be from what I have been getting. Along with the compound this card was included which offered some information, most of which I didn't know.

Anyhow, I have a lot of questions on this subject and if anyone has some experience with compounds, any knowledge that you might share will be appreciated.

[King's X]

What application are you looking to use this on?

I primarily use white and follow up with green rouge for most if not allow leather tools. I feel like I should warn you that not all rouge is made equal. You can purchase lower quality rouge, so I would make sure to trust your outlet for rouge.

[rickdroid]

What application are you looking to use this on?

I primarily use white and follow up with green rouge for most if not allow leather tools. I feel like I should warn you that not all rouge is made equal. You can purchase lower quality rouge, so I would make sure to trust your outlet for rouge.

I will be using this for knives, my leather knives, pocket knives, pretty much any knife that I have.

I know that the compounds are not made equal but who do you trust when making a purchase. There don't seem to be any standards on compounds and I understand that one companies compound may nor be anywhere near another companies. How do you make an informed choice?

For my leather knives I use green followed with red then a bare strop. While this works fine for me I would simply like to know more and perhaps make a smarter choice.

[Art]

The composition, effect, and packaging of buffing compounds is really all over the board and has been for years. A good buffer (technician) can make anything work on darn near anything. A felt buff with anything on it can be used to cut anything, but obviously the right compound will make the job easier. When you are talking the compounds on your list, these are meant to be used on buffers, not strops. Jewelers tend to use compounds from jewelry supply houses they know and deal with e.g. Rio Grande. Fore working with tools, you use stones, and you strop. For stropping, you just need something fine enough to polish an edge, 3 micron diamond paste will work fine, but I use .5 micron green compound from Formax. If you use a small jeweler's buffer, you can use the red jeweler's rouge to buff and color any of the soft metals like brass, gold, and silver (including nickle silver which is basically brass). You can also use buffs on a Dremel or Foredom to accomplish the same. You might see white compound also, it is .25 micron and in my opinion too fine for stropping.

If you really get into restoration and buffing, The Brownell's Polish-O-Ray series of compounds is great for felt wheels and very consistent.

If you want to buy something with 4 or 5 different compounds in it, Try to make sure it is from Formax, as their stuff is very consistent, EnKay would be my second choice.

Art

[rickdroid]

The composition, effect, and packaging of buffing compounds is really all over the board and has been for years. A good buffer (technician) can make anything work on darn near anything. A felt buff with anything on it can be used to cut anything, but obviously the right compound will make the job easier. When you are talking the compounds on your list, these are meant to be used on buffers, not strops. Jewelers tend to use compounds from jewelry supply houses they know and deal with e.g. Rio Grande. Fore working with tools, you use stones, and you strop. For stropping, you just need something fine enough to polish an edge, 3 micron diamond paste will work fine, but I use .5 micron green compound from Formax. If you use a small jeweler's buffer, you can use the red jeweler's rouge to buff and color any of the soft metals like brass, gold, and silver (including nickle silver which is basically brass). You can also use buffs on a Dremel or Foredom to accomplish the same. You might see white compound also, it is .25 micron and in my opinion too fine for stropping.

If you really get into restoration and buffing, The Brownell's Polish-O-Ray series of compounds is great for felt wheels and very consistent.

If you want to buy something with 4 or 5 different compounds in it, Try to make sure it is from Formax, as their stuff is very consistent, EnKay would be my second choice.

Art

I want to make it clear that I am not arguing with anyone on this thread just in case I make a statement that might seem that way. So if I say something that seems to be rude I apologize. Certainly not my intention.

"The composition, effect, and packaging of buffing compounds is really all over the board and has been for years. "

Yeah, my exact problem and the reason for beginning this thread.

"When you are talking the compounds on your list, these are meant to be used on buffers, not strops."

Understood but unfortunately I don't have a buffer, unless you consider a Dremel a buffer, and have to do all of my finishing work with a strop. Figuring which compound is usable without a buffer is another one of those questions that I would like to find an answer for.

"Fore working with tools, you use stones, and you strop. For stropping, you just need something fine enough to polish an edge, 3 micron diamond paste will work fine, but I use .5 micron green compound from Formax."

I use a DMT 3 micron stone as my finishing stone, then use a compound of the same or possibly a slightly larger size as a strop aid; unsure on this point because I don't know the size of the compounds that I am using. I know that using the strop polishes the edge and makes the tool apparently sharper. I say apparently because I don't know if the blade is actually sharper or just seems so from the effect of the polished edge. I do know, at least from my perspective, that the blade sure feels sharper.

"If you use a small jeweler's buffer, you can use the red jeweler's rouge to buff and color any of the soft metals like brass, gold, and silver (including nickle silver which is basically brass). "

I use red as my next to last step trying to achieve a high polish on the edge then I finish on a bare strop. I have been told more than once that I am wasting my time using bare leather but I disagree.

"You might see white compound also, it is .25 micron and in my opinion too fine for stropping."

Here is one of those cases where information seems to be inconsistent. King's X says that he uses white followed by green. Is he using some other supplier who makes his green finer than his white, or does the term 'rouge' when used with green indicate some kind of difference that changes which color to use.

King's X, care to jump back in here and set me straight?

Also, that reference card that I posted also shows white as being coarser than green from that manufacturer.

This is a really confusing subject.

[Art]

Here again, they are all over the board. That is why I say to go with Formax. There are 4 or so grades of "white" formax, most of them just a fine alumina, chrome and stainless being their primary targets. Green is usually Alumina and Chrome Oxides, usually on stainless.

Black compound will actually cut quite aggressively on a wheel and might cut "a little bit" on a strop, so watch out when using it to maintain the desired angle and don't "roll off" at the end of your stroke. Your finer stones will do the same as this compound.

Red jeweler's rouge is not going to do much for steel, as it is made for softer metals, however, on a strop, it will set the edge back up, which is the whole idea, but the bare leather will do that too.

There is also an animal out there called Herb's Yellowstone, which cuts a bit. It can actually sharpen or unfortunately de-sharpen an edge if improperly used. Not a stropping aid per se, but will bring back some remarkably dull edges.

So the order of attack would be (wheel or strop):

Black (be careful)

Green

Green Micro Fine

White

For strops, all I ever use now is Micro Fine.

Art

[rickdroid]

Thanks Art, this helps quite a bit.

I've got another question that might be best addressed in a new topic for ease of someone finding the topic. Let me know if you would like me to move it.

I don't have a leather splitter but I have reduced leather quite successfully using a low angel block plane. I originally saw Ian Atkinson on You Tube using a razor blade block plane to skive some of his work. I tried one but there is no adjustment on that type of plane and the razor blades need to be sharpened out of the box so I decided to go with a good quality box plane.

I have the blade as sharp as any of my razor knives and it works quite well but I was wondering if placing a back bevel on the blade might produce better results. I have never understood the reasoning for the back bevel so do you have any thoughts on this.

Thanks again

Rick

Edited February 21, 2016 by rickdroid

[King's X]

Hey RickDroid.....hope you yearned something like I did. I purchased my Green micro fine from Leather Wranglers. Paul at WL's has some interesting videos that may be more helpful even though Art has covered this subject well. Thanks Art.

Take care

[rickdroid]

Hey RickDroid.....hope you yearned something like I did. I purchased my Green micro fine from Leather Wranglers. Paul at WL's has some interesting videos that may be more helpful even though Art has covered this subject well. Thanks Art.

Take care

I am very happy with what I have learned. Compounds have confused me for a long time and this really helps and now I also have a reputable supplier to purchase from. Thanks for the video info, will certainly give them a look.

I second the thanks to Art.

Take care yourself.

[Kulafarmer]

Heres a question for all,,

Do you wet your strop or buffing wheel/head/tip?

Curious if it would make the process and the compounds perform better?

Not talking soak it but wetting slightly with either water or an oil of some sort?

Heres a link i found that was interesting, thinking of doing something similar

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop_archive/power_strop.htm

Edited February 22, 2016 by Kulafarmer

[Art]

I condition a new strop with Pecard's (Vaseline would probably work too) let it set for an hour and apply Formax Micro-Fine.

Back in the day (sorry I'm Old), they used animal fat as the binder in the bars of buffing compound. Somewhere along the line, that changed. The old formula went on a little greasy, and Brownell's Polish-O-Ray more so. If you can imagine losing a 2 lb bar of compound and searching the shop for it and having to order more, only to find out that the dog loved the things. Came in one day and he was pigging out on a bar. I called the vet and he said it might clean him out a bit, but the occasional bar might not hurt him too bad. So there was grease in the bar, which has now probably been replaced by some petroleum product. The Formax is pretty dense and is hard to get onto the strop, hense the Pecard's. After that first application, I pretty much haven't needed anything.

Art

[Colt W Knight]

I use automotive Rubbing compounds because I have big bottles on hand because I build guitars, and I use the compounds to buff out the lacquer. They come in progressively finer grits, and when rubbed on the flesh side of leather, make great stropping compounds. When I get the notion to sharpen a bunch of stuff, I will even do up 2-3 strops of varrying grit polishing compound. You can see yourself in the edge after I get done.

[rickdroid]

Heres a question for all,,

Do you wet your strop or buffing wheel/head/tip?

Curious if it would make the process and the compounds perform better?

Not talking soak it but wetting slightly with either water or an oil of some sort?

Heres a link i found that was interesting, thinking of doing something similar

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop_archive/power_strop.htm

Kulafarmer, I have never use water. Never thought of it.

I condition a new strop with Pecard's (Vaseline would probably work too) let it set for an hour and apply Formax Micro-Fine.

Back in the day (sorry I'm Old), they used animal fat as the binder in the bars of buffing compound. Somewhere along the line, that changed. The old formula went on a little greasy, and Brownell's Polish-O-Ray more so. If you can imagine losing a 2 lb bar of compound and searching the shop for it and having to order more, only to find out that the dog loved the things. Came in one day and he was pigging out on a bar. I called the vet and he said it might clean him out a bit, but the occasional bar might not hurt him too bad. So there was grease in the bar, which has now probably been replaced by some petroleum product. The Formax is pretty dense and is hard to get onto the strop, hense the Pecard's. After that first application, I pretty much haven't needed anything.

Art

Art what is the texture of the Formex Micro-Fine? Is it a hard dry block, or does it have a waxy quality? How hard is it to apply to the stop?

How much is enough? Do you just make a few lines on the strop, do you try to cover the surface or is the right amount somewhere in between?

Thanks

Rick

[Art]

The Micro-Fine is a pretty solid block, get a thin coat on the strop then strop to move it around. It will look blotchy for a while, then it will become black over time. Ditto for a wheel. I don't use any oil to prep a wheel though.

To answer a prior question, there are two things of importance with buffing compounds. One, is the grit hard enough to cut the metal? Two, what is the grit size. The smaller the grit, the finer the finish. For really technical shears, I use diamond all the way, diamond wheels and diamond paste or spray on leather buffs. A 45 micron wheel can be very aggressive, but doesn't leave a really smooth finish, however a 9 micron wheel leaves almost a mirror. A 3 and .5 micron diamond loaded leather wheel will actually bring up a burr where a chrome or aluminum oxide paste might not.

Art

[Art]

The Green Micro-Fine will pretty much cut and polish any steel used for a knife, and .5 will polish to a mirror. .5 micron is about equivalent to a 15,000 water stone for comparison.

Art

[judgebc]

Art,

I have Flexcut Gold for stropping my wood carving tools, do you know what grit size it might be?

Found Hand American 10 carat 0.25 and 0.5 micron diamond spray, heavy concentration liquid.

It was in my Wood Carving tool box, it is in liquid form.

I also have Herb's Yellowstone but have not used it yet.

I want to get some Formax Green Micro-Fine 0.5 micron.

My Big Red Swivel Knife sharpener just came in.

Can't wait to start testing, these different polishes.

[Art]

I did find Herb's Yellowstone to be the most aggressive of the bunch. I have never tried the flexcut. The sprays I use on ceramic and steel laps, the work on a strop too, or on a felt wheel. Micro Fine works on a felt wheel also. If I could only have one, it would be the Formax Green Micro Fine. You can also use rubber conveyor belt for a strop. If I remember, Weaver has that. I also have a couple of tubes of Tormek Stropping Compound, and it works ok too.

Art

[Martyn]

Like many subjects, this can be taken to sublime extremes. The reality however, is that while it makes *some* difference which type of grade of compound you get, it's really not worth making a science out of it, you wont just be splitting hairs, you'll be splitting atoms.

In the UK a compound called 'starkie blue' is popular and is really very good. But it's not magic, it's just a medium grade compound. Any medium grade compound will do the same job, even automotive polish, toothpaste etc. Just get a medium grade compouind of whatever type you want and use it.

Regarding diamond pastes, yes they are good, but again, dont kill yourself over it. Certainly dont spend a lot of money on fancy formulas claiming a billion carats per gram. I suggest getting one of the multipack trial samples of THK diamond paste on ebay. They are a Chinese brand and the samples vary from 5 micron, down to 0.25 micron. I've found the 1 micron to be a good 'fine' paste and a good compliment to medium grade starkie blue.

YMMV.

[judgebc]

I won’t buy red, white, yellow or blue rouge, how can you judge it’s content on color.

Everyone makes white, red yellow, blue, etc.

I will buy Formax Micro Fine-Green becausr they tell me the grit size.

Art thanks for the recommendation.

Yeah they could be lying but at least they put their name on it.

One’s mans Treasure is another Man’s Junk.

Yes, I once was a Rocket Scientist.

Martyn, rouge is cheap, I saw a Wayne Jeuschke Stamp I like, he wants $160.

Robert Beard wants you to wait a year, before delivery.

At least with Mr. Beard I have enough time to sell my blood every month.

Hope his prices don’t go up, lol?

Yeah, I’m enjoying this new hobby, but man it is sure expensive.

Thanks, Art and Martyn, and everyone else on this forum for your valuable information.

[Art]

There are two really important things about compounds, First, what it is made of, if it will cut what you are trying to polish, and Second, the grit size.

There is some consistency in colors from the larger manufacturers, JacksonLea, Caswell, Formax, Brownell's, EnKay, and Dico.

Art

[judgebc]

I have been stropping my swivel knife with Tandy's White Rouge every day for two months.

Today,I used my Formax Micro-fine Green Rouge.  

Wow the swivel knife slid like butter over the leather.

 

[Martyn]

16 hours ago, judgebc said:

I have been stropping my swivel knife with Tandy's White Rouge every day for two months.

Today,I used my Formax Micro-fine Green Rouge.  

Wow the swivel knife slid like butter over the leather.

 

There's a lot of factors at play. Certainly some compounds seem to work better than others, but what is often forgotten is that stropping is the last step in sharpening. If you have sharpened the tool properly, then stropping can be effective with just plain leather and no compound at all. The more you are relying on compounds to get the edge, then the duller the tool to start with. It's better to get the tool as sharp as you possibly can, before it goes near a strop. Then the strop is just a final finish. If you do that right, then you dont need expensive or fancy stropping compounds.

[judgebc]

Martyn, Yes sharpening is a "ART".

I sharpened my Tandy ergonomic swivel knife on a 3x10 DMT Diasharp extra fine, then 3x8 Spyderco UF306 ceramic.

I used a Big Red Sharpening fixture by Chuck Smith to keep the angle consistent.

I could have used my Tormek, maybe I will try using it on my Robert Beard swivel knifes when they come in a year.

[Tannin]

 

Great chart, although I too have come to the conclusion that green is coarser than white.  However, they seem to produce similar results as far as I can tell.  Most suppliers recommend green for carbon steel and white for stainless-steel, which suggests to me that white is softer, as I believe stainless steel is considered a softer steel (but perhaps it just requires/warrants a finer finish?).

On 2/21/2016 at 6:52 PM, Art said:

The composition, effect, and packaging of buffing compounds is really all over the board and has been for years. A good buffer (technician) can make anything work on darn near anything. A felt buff with anything on it can be used to cut anything, but obviously the right compound will make the job easier. ... For stropping, you just need something fine enough to polish an edge, ... I use .5 micron green compound from Formax....You might see white compound also, it is .25 micron and in my opinion too fine for stropping.

 

Interesting, I've been looking into the green vs. white which is finer issue for some time and the answers vary.

I used to strop with plain leather - worked fine.  Then I tried Autosolv white metal polish on the leather strop, that worked well: it produced a nice shiny finish - it has some cleaning effect too.  Then after reading-up on compounds I bought a large block quality white (aliminium oxide?) compound, enough to last several lifetimes!  I notice that Americans prefer green (chrome oxide) compounds but white was allegedly finer, so I figured I'd use that.  I bought a metal polishing kit last year and contacted the maker, they confirmed that white was finer than green.  So I have some strops with white compound, some with green.  I often use just one or the other but sometimes start with green and then finish with white (and sometimes a bare strop or strop with metal polish after that).

BTW I've been experimenting with strops recently:

- Most recently with a large MDF strop. I have green compound on the rougher side (which as expected is quickly getting flatter & smoother with use) and white compound on the smooth side. 

- I also made a leather "Power-Strop": 3 thick, saddle leather, 4" diameter disks glue together & mounted on a spare drill arbor).  I use it with green compound. It works very well, fixing some edges that had proven stubborn in the past, so...

- I made another "Power-strop", this time slimmer with a curved edge-profile, for stropping the interior of carving gouges.  Not that useful it turns out as I use mainly "out cannel" gouges (which have their bevels on the outside) - they really only need a quick hand-strop to deburr the inside and the outside can be done on the basic flat powerstrop or by hand.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Tannin

[Tannin]

BTW There is a chap on youtube who polishes an axe head to a very impressive mirror finish.  He goes through a long series of progressively finer "flap wheels", papers & compounds. It took him all day. I was surprised to see him going to (presumably soft, fine) red jewelers rouge (after dark grey, light grey, green and then white compound) - using buffing wheels.  I don't think he used blue compound though.  The result was truly impressive. Very shiny.

The sequence of buffing with the various compounds begins @ 5:40:

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Tannin