How to setup a Cobra Class 4 for holster sewing?

[schwebel]

So I finally got my first sewing machine. A cobra class 4 premium package. I do mainly holsters and belts and was wondering about setting up the machine and if anyone had any tips. Do you use the holster plate at all or the roller guide? If so what advantages are there to it and is there any tricks to setting it up? What size stitches work best? Also what needles and thread weight? Do you play with any of the tensions depending on leather weight? Sorry for the noob questions but this is the first sewing machine I have ever used and want to get started off right, thanks.

[dakotawolf]

I'm seriously looking at buying the same machine.  I've been searching this forum and the internet for info.  Your question asks the same things I'd like to know.  Just wanted to let you know you're not the only person wondering, and I think there are more people wondering.  Thanks for asking it.  

[OLDNSLOW]

I have had mine for about a month now, there is a learning curve to working the machine and depending on your own experience and confidence in your abilities will determine the curve.  Depending on where you bought your machine there should have been a CD that came with it, mine did and it is very helpful, I have gone back to it a few times.  Each time I have gone back to the CD it helps to understand the operation a little better.  One of the things that I did, but again your abilities may be different was to slow the speed way down to its slowest speed so that I can sew and watch all the things that are going on without tearing something up both material and machine.  If you already have it set up and have sewed with it without problems then that is the 1st step, there were 2 of us here that were delivered machines and the motor had reverted to reverse running.

There are in the event you did not get the CD some videos up on the website and utube as well, you'll find the videos informative and helpful, you really cant break it but you can mess it up, but again there are videos that can help getting it back to running again.  Good luck with it you'll enjoy the machine, and as a note that are a bunch of other guys here with far more experience than I have on how the machine runs, but I digress, one of your questions about stitch size, well play with it, I have mine set at about 5stp and it works well for me on the holsters and belts I have been making.

 

O n S

Ron 

[Russ]

I'll jump in here.

First, I own an Artisan so my experience with a Cobra is limited.  But, I've taken three multi-day holster classes at the Prescott leather show the last three years and Cowboy provide all of the machines we used. They were brand new and set up to sew, but required fine tuning to get started.  The way we did that was to just sew scraps of leather in the thickness that we were going to use for the holsters.  We needed to adjust the top and bottom tensions to get the knots in the middle of the leather.  Nice thing about using scraps is you can take the scraps apart to see exactly where the knots are located.  I'd say 90% of the tension adjustments were made up top, 10% on the bottom.  But both were needed to accomplish the goal.  I don't know how the Cowboy arrives in regards to tensions, the Artisan was set up to my specs when shipped and all I had to do was tweak it just a tiny bit.  The Cowboys needed more tweaking, but then this was at a trade show and those guys were very busy.  They provided a lot of machines for classes.

Most of us didn't use the roller guide.  A few folks did when making long straight runs on the belts.  I've had a roller guide but stopped using it a long time ago.  I can just look at the foot and judge where the thread needs to go most of the time.  We did not use the holster plate, although it was available to us.

I use 207 and 277 thread for my holsters at home, depending on the look I want and style of holster/rig (western vs. modern).  We used these two sizes in class.  We even used 346 which I thought was too big.  We had to play with the tensions with the 346 to get it to work, and using 277 in the bobbin didn't work for us.  Using 277 top and 207 in the bottom worked ok, with tweaking.  Using 277 or 207 in both places worked the best in our machines (we had two).

As always, using the proper sized needle for the thread size is of utmost importance.

http://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

I find the back and forth about which machine is best to be tiresome.  I love my machine, and my experience with the Cowboys is they are also fine machines.  Both have some learning curves, and most of your success will depend on your own patience and how good the customer service is from the place you bought the machine.  If you buy from a dealer that is recommended here on leatherworker.net, you won't go wrong. Just make tiny, tiny tweaks to the tension as you adjust.  Try your best to only tweak one or the other at the same time.  It's easy to get completely out of whack and have to start over.  Once you get the hang of it, I guarantee it will be easy in the future.  Patience.

Russ

Edited April 30, 2016 by Russ

[JLSleather]

I like 6 stitches / inch most of the time.  

On tooled belts, I may aim for more like 5/inch but it matters if it's part of a set.  If I'm making the holster 6/in, then the belt would be also.

I've used a holster plate, but only occasionally. Certainly can help in spots where the project isn't flat, or if you are sewing down a piece with a metal clip, etc.  Using the holster plate WILL require you to reset the stitch length and MAY require a change in tension.

Thread is most often 277.  Smaller projects might get 207 (pocket holsters, small bags / large wallets, etc.)

277 thread I use a #24 needle (some others prefer a #25) and 207 uses a #23 needle.  I like the LR point needles.

Scraps are good for setting the machine.  Set teh machine with leather from the SAME hide as the project you're working on whenever possible.  Different pieces of leather act differently, and I don't want to put hours in a project only to "hope" the stitch looks good.  

I have used the little goofy edge roller guide, but a drop-down guide would be far better.

Since everyone here is considerably smarter 'n' me, I'm sure I'm the only one made these mistakes, but I have

• forgotten that I changed the stitch length for a project and started sewing without putting it back where it should have been for the current project.
• moved the reverse lever without looking, and not put it all the way up or all the way down (not good);
• changed the stitch length cuz I wanted a longer stitch, and by not paying attention i shortened the stitch.

Again, I'm sure I'm the only one

That should get you started.  For more technical info, I  think it's reasonable that a new machine dealer can handle that themselves (you paid for it).

 

 

[Red Cent]

So I finally got my first sewing machine. A cobra class 4 premium package. I do mainly holsters and belts and was wondering about setting up the machine and if anyone had any tips. Do you use the holster plate at all or the roller guide? If so what advantages are there to it and is there any tricks to setting it up? What size stitches work best? Also what needles and thread weight? Do you play with any of the tensions depending on leather weight? Sorry for the noob questions but this is the first sewing machine I have ever used and want to get started off right, thanks.

 

I do not use the holster plate nor the table when sewing a holster. Because of the 8-9 and a liner of 6-7 and no skiving, it will not lay flat.

I started not using the roller guide on belts but you it faithfully now. Rarely use it otherwise.

Schmetz #25, 277 polyester top and 207 polyester bottom.

The tension adjustment discussions on here are varied and many. Your machine should be good to go as is. Un fortunately, there are many Type A personalities here and we cannot leave well enough alone.

 

[OLDNSLOW]

Red, why do you use polly instead of nylon,

And don't forget that reverse lever, stitch adjuster, I've only heard mind you, that if start of thinking your going forward and it goes backwards it's a bummer, so I have heard.

[jfdavis58]

Had my C4 a couple years; all the bells and whistles package.  Most of those tools/toys sit in the accessory drawer and rattle as the machine runs.  Mostly cases, holsters, belts ; stuff in two layers of 8-9 oz leather.  Holsters seem best done with lots of free space around the needle, similar with all the more intricate corners and details of most cases.  Belts need lots of free run space in front and back of the needle-I just use my hands to do the guiding work-spread the fingers out as wide as possible and keep the hand tight against the table or lower arm.  All free scrap is repurposed to insure correct settings before I put the project into the machine--a chunk is left attached by the threads so I know here it was when I turned the power off.  The manual is close at hand as is the oil.  A spare needle and the thread nips are attached to the upper arm with a rare-earth magnet.

[Red Cent]

Reading some of this and it occurs to me who is making what kind of holster. I cut leather, glue, finish the edges, and then sew the peripheral leather edges leaving the main seam unsewn. When I finish the main seam, the stitch line goes all the way around. Laying flat, I use the table. Main seam, the holster has teardrop shape so I remove the table to get 90 degree stitches. And the main seam consists of two layers of 8-9 and two layers of 6-7. I don't use welts. Don't like them.

 

Back when I knew -0- about the C4, I was having problems. Skipped stitched, crows nest, and the like. DirtClod said go polyester. Ain't looked back.

 

[OLDNSLOW]

That be the only reason?  And how is it working out for you?  No issues with anything at all from customers on prior builds?

[JMWendt]

I have a Cowboy 4500, and use it for everything from thin wallet innards to thicker bags, beefy holsters and straps.  

I do a lot of holsters and belts.  I have the stirrup plate, holster plate, slotted plate, and the blanket set, as well as the roller feed (material) guide and the table top attachment.

I use my machine with thread ranging from 69 to 277, with an assortment of needles that I match up with thread size (with some variation).

The stirrup plate is useful (sometimes) for very difficult items (obvious example is stirrups, or some holsters, or sharp box corners on totes that you should have put a round gusset on instead).  Using the stirrup plate requires removing the feed dog, and because the feed dog is removed, you have to help with the feed a bit.  This takes some getting used to, but is easy with some practice.  It is a ten minute job setting the machine up to use the stirrup plate.

The holster plate is useful slightly more often than the stirrup plate.  Although some people seem to be under the impression that the holster plate requires the removal of the feed dog to be used, this is not the case (at least with the holster plate I have, which I believe is the standard Cowboy holster plate).  It fits on the machine without removal of the feed dog and does not interfere with the feed dog.  The feed dog does not touch the material being sewn when the holster plate is being used, so you could remove the feed dog, but you don't have to do so.  Like the stirrup plate, using the holster plate takes a little experience to get used to helping the feed process, but it is a useful plate for some holster situations where you are trying to get close to an edge.  I find it very useful for holsters that are formed first, then sewn-- where you are trying to follow a bulging region on the backside or get around an installed piece of hardware (clip).  In cases where you are sewing first, then forming, you won't find the holster plate as useful as the regular plate-- if you have a flat pancake holster and sew it up, then wet it and form the holster into it, the holster plate is not worth putting on the machine.

For both the stirrup and holster plate, I find myself using the right foot only most of the time.  

With either the stirrup or holster plate, you'll have to greatly increase the stitch size to match up with what you normally set the stitch arm to . . . the thickness of the plates decreases the stitch length.  Stitch length is a variable that is based primarily on your own aesthetic preferences, but the plates will change your stitch length.  6 is no longer 6 (if it ever was) when you use the holster or stirrup plate.

I tried using the material guide (roller), but found it to be cumbersome.  I prefer freehand work.  There's probably a time I might use it, but don't usually.  I wouldn't sell mine, but it may gather dust.

The slotted plate is nice for very thin straps or softer material where the item may tend to get partially sucked into the feed dog itself.  The slotted plate can help make a nicer finished backside on an item.  It does require the removal of the feed dog to be installed.  It also requires you to help with feeding, since the feed dog is removed to use it.  Like the stirrup plate and holster plate, it has limited usefulness, but if you are willing to take the ten minutes to set up for a job specific to it, it can improve your quality for those jobs.

I also have the table top attachment and use it 40% of the time overall.  I don't bother to screw it down, just set it in place and it stays just fine, so it is easy to remove and put back on when I need to.  It's great when you need it for larger items or flat work.

I have found that I have had to adjust tensions very little for all the various items I sew.  I have never had to adjust the bobbin tension.  I have only adjusted the primary and secondary tensions on the upper for use with 69 thread.  138, 207, and 277 sew very well at the same tension settings.  They all appear to sew wonderfully no matter what leather I am sewing, and sew perfectly on canvas and cordura as well.  From my research, I assumed I would be adjusting these to sew thinner materials, but this has not been the case.  I had though I might even need another machine to sew thinner materials, but at this point, the only reason I am still considering getting another machine (like a Consew 206 or the equivalent) would be due to the heavy duty marking on thin / soft materials from the feet on the monstrous Cowboy 4500, not due to limitations on what thinness of material the machine sews properly.  It appears to sew anything I throw under it, no matter how thick or thin, even items well under 6 oz in thickness.  It even sewed a patch on a judo uniform without issue-- basically thick fabric.

Even if I found I had to adjust tensions for different thread sizes and thickness of leather, it would be just fine . . . it may vary from machine to machine, but don't be afraid to tinker.  You are the boss of your machine.  Experiment.

If you are broke/cheap/miserly, you could easily not have a stirrup plate, slotted plate, material guide, or holster plate and still manage to do a hell of a lot with the machine nonetheless.

If you can only afford one or two adders, I'd recommend the table top attachment and the holster plate, and don't bother with the rest (especially given how spendy they are).  With just the table top and holster plate, you cover most of the situations you'll see.  You should also have the right foot only as well as the double foot.  If you were to only use one thread size, I'd probably recommend 207, but I highly recommend having 69, 138, 207, 277 on hand in black, white, and brown.  You can just do more that way.  Adjust needle size based on the standard chart, but even this can be fudged.  Changing the machine per job to do what you want it to do is a chore, and gets a little repetitive, but when the only other option is to have two or even three machines, each configured specifically to a type of job, well, it's just fine.

I hope this helps.  I asked a lot of questions when I first started using my machine, and tried a lot of things.  Still more to try and to ask, but this is a fairly decent summary of what I've learned so far.

Edited May 2, 2016 by JMWendt

[Red Cent]

That be the only reason?  And how is it working out for you?  No issues with anything at all from customers on prior builds?

 

None that I know of. And I have made a lot for locals and I would think the word would get back to me. And there is a bunch scattered around the United States.

Nylon or polyester have their pros and cons. From what I have read and learned they are about equal other than the poly seems to be more supple.

[Ed in Tx]

I noticed in one of the posts that you are using a size 25 needle with a 277 thread, that isn't the correct needle size for 277. You should be using a size 24. The size 25 needle is too large, The manual that came with my Cobra has a sheet showing proper thread to needle size. The best thing you can do is practice, you aren't going to be a master sewer in a few days. It takes time an patience to progress. You will find times when a left foot works better than a right depending on what you are sewing and where the seam is. Practicing sewing curves and turns is also a good idea. There are numerous YouTube videos that were made specifically showing how to sew with a Cobra 4.

[Red Cent]

.

"The recommended needle size is a #24 or #26.  The larger eye is necessary because of the large diameter of the thread."

  http://www.superiorthreads.com/superior-bonded-nylon-277/

"277 top and 207 bobbin use a #25/200 needle"

http://ferdco.com/content.php?page_id=27

"Hey all. There is a needle and thread reference guide in the back of the instruction book. It will tell you what size needle, and thread to use for many different thicknesses and applications. It is nothing written in stone because of the variances in leather, but it is a good starting point. Steve"

 

[klaykrusher]

15 hours ago, Ed in Tx said:

I noticed in one of the posts that you are using a size 25 needle with a 277 thread, that isn't the correct needle size for 277. You should be using a size 24. The size 25 needle is too large, 

I actually was running into an issue this weekend when sewing double 8oz layer belt using #24 needle with 277 top/207 bottom.  Randomly, the loop would not be formed for the shuttle to catch the thread and would skip stitches.  It was recommend for me to try a #25 needle.  Once doing that i no longer have the issue. 

[schwebel]

Thank you all for your input. Slowing the motor down really helped me to learn how to use the machine better. Also watching about every youtube video I can find. I really wish there was a video on tension adjustment though. I have done a couple things where the stitches look great top and bottom. I have also done some where the bottom stitch looks way to tight and I can't figure out the tension adjustment for the different thicknesses. I guess practice, practice practice and I'll figure it out. 

[JMWendt]

There are a couple vids on tension adjustment.  See Al Bane's instructional video for the Cobra, right around 32:54.  Also, there is the video for tension adjustment on the Cowboy 4500 which is identical, really.  That's at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRtllp0TAo.

 

[JLSleather]

Re: needle size to thread size.  Keep in mind that not all needles are created equal.  Two different manufacturers (or even the same manufacturer) may make - for example - a size 24 needle with a different hole size, point geometry, etc.  Two needles can BOTH be 794 series and size 24 yet be considerably different.  I wouldn't carve needle sizes in stone.. just a place to start - like how hard do you strike a punch (answer:  hard as you need to).

Red has been on about poly thread for a while now.  I tried poly thread (and still have some) but I prefer the nylon.  From what I have read, the "advantage" of poly thread seems to be a bit more resistant to UV -- other words less likely do decay due to direct sunlight.  This is not a new concept -- my monofilament fishing line has the same issue -- but it doesn't disintegrate over night.  So, I largely (not exclusively) use nylon thread.  This week I had opportunity to see a tooled handbag I made over 25 years ago -- does NOT need re-stitched   Having said that, I've always liked Red's holsters, which appear to me to be both solid AND attractive.

Incidentally, my post above must have been 'fat-fingered'.. it should have ready that i prefer LL point needles.  The stitch is much straighter, and tighter with the same tension setting.

QUICK PIC of the difference, both stitches were done without changing the stitch length or tension... Note that the black stitch on the right (LR point) appears longer due to the angle - it is the SAME stitch length as the left side.

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by JLSleather

[Red Cent]

http://www.schmetzneedles.com/learning/pdf/leather-needles.pdf

[CowboyBob]

The #24 needle w/277 is very marginal,it will work sometimes W//some threads BUT can give you problems so we always recommend #25 w/277.

[lws380]

I have 2 Cobra 4's. 277 bonded nylon thread (top and bottom) in both, one white and one black thread.  I use # 24 needle on the white thread, and #25 with black thread. I used a #24 on the black thread and got sporadic skipping. Changed to the larger #25 for the black and skipping stoped all together. Back thread is considerably stiffer than the white. 

[veritasleather]

On May 6, 2016 at 10:32 AM, JLSleather said:

Re: needle size to thread size.  Keep in mind that not all needles are created equal.  Two different manufacturers (or even the same manufacturer) may make - for example - a size 24 needle with a different hole size, point geometry, etc.  Two needles can BOTH be 794 series and size 24 yet be considerably different.  I wouldn't carve needle sizes in stone.. just a place to start - like how hard do you strike a punch (answer:  hard as you need to).

Red has been on about poly thread for a while now.  I tried poly thread (and still have some) but I prefer the nylon.  From what I have read, the "advantage" of poly thread seems to be a bit more resistant to UV -- other words less likely do decay due to direct sunlight.  This is not a new concept -- my monofilament fishing line has the same issue -- but it doesn't disintegrate over night.  So, I largely (not exclusively) use nylon thread.  This week I had opportunity to see a tooled handbag I made over 25 years ago -- does NOT need re-stitched   Having said that, I've always liked Red's holsters, which appear to me to be both solid AND attractive.

Incidentally, my post above must have been 'fat-fingered'.. it should have ready that i prefer LL point needles.  The stitch is much straighter, and tighter with the same tension setting.

QUICK PIC of the difference, both stitches were done without changing the stitch length or tension... Note that the black stitch on the right (LR point) appears longer due to the angle - it is the SAME stitch length as the left side.

 

JLSleather,

I have had my Cobra4 for just a couple of months and I finally got it to stitch correctly, thanks to many of the pros on this forum. Your pick above shows what I would like my stitches to look like. I want to continue to use 277 nylon on both top and bottom. Can you give me a specific model number of needles for the "LR" and "LL" and maybe the vendor to order from? I have been reading a lot about needles but I get thrown off by all the 7x3, 7x4, 200/xxx etc. I think I know the series for my machine is 794. I would really appreciate your help, or any of you guys that can help me out. 

thank you!

Edited September 10, 2016 by veritasleather

[JLSleather]

I've been using Organ needles.  I lack the experience to confirm that they are THE BEST made, but they do stitch well, so there's that. 

As for the 794 designation, the 7x4 is the same thing, said a different way. There was a chart around here somewhere explaining all of that.. but no idea where it went.  They might also say DY3.

I got some recently from an ebay seller.  Keep in mind, that i ordered from them twice... once I got just what I ordered... the other time I got a different needle (even though I emailed to confirm they were 'LL' points, they weren't).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400730390609?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=670274800837&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

For 277 thread top and bottom, you'll likely want a #25 needle.

 

[veritasleather]

4 hours ago, JLSleather said:

I've been using Organ needles.  I lack the experience to confirm that they are THE BEST made, but they do stitch well, so there's that. 

As for the 794 designation, the 7x4 is the same thing, said a different way. There was a chart around here somewhere explaining all of that.. but no idea where it went.  They might also say DY3.

I got some recently from an ebay seller.  Keep in mind, that i ordered from them twice... once I got just what I ordered... the other time I got a different needle (even though I emailed to confirm they were 'LL' points, they weren't).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400730390609?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=670274800837&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

For 277 thread top and bottom, you'll likely want a #25 needle.

 

Great! This definitely points me in the right direction with needle selection. Thanks for clearing this stuff up. Also, side note: I recently discovered your holster downloads and edge guide video. cool stuff, and definitely going to try one of your holster patterns soon, and definitely order that edge guide from eBay.

Thanks again sir!

[JLSleather]

That edge guide really is a nice addition.  People make videos these days more for attention than to actually make a valid point, but that would be other "not-Jeff" people.  If the thing wasn't a 'plus' for me, there wouldn't be a video   That roller thingy that came with the machine isn't entirely useless, but the drop-down model is much more convenient (and less money, if i remember right).

I don't mind "clearing up" what I can and where i can, though it does seem quite petty that for two and a half THOUSAND dollars you get to hope that the machine is set up correctly and for information ask questions on a forum from someone OTHER THAN the place you got the machine.  I bought a $10 digital stop watch recently, and EVEN THAT came with SOME kind of manual...