Denise Report post Posted January 3, 2009 I have had horses that I rubbed the hair off every winter and it didn't seem to make them sore. They looked kinda funny. Come spring when they shed their winter hair the problem goes away. This brings up a point I have wondered about as I have followed this thread. Is there any possibility that since he has a winter coat now you are seeing what has been happening all along that wasn't as obvious with a shorter summer coat? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Traveller Report post Posted January 3, 2009 This brings up a point I have wondered about as I have followed this thread. Is there any possibility that since he has a winter coat now you are seeing what has been happening all along that wasn't as obvious with a shorter summer coat? He doesn't get much of a winter coat, Denise, and the hair looks broken off, not flat, so I might notice it on a summer coat, too. He doesn't seem to object to the saddle but it can't be great for him. I'm going to take the laces out of the back skirts today (I'm assuming that will be a straight forward sort of thing to do). Thanks, Doug, for your thoughts, too! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daviD A Morris Report post Posted January 4, 2009 Hi, I have not had time to read all the post here in detail so someone else may have already mentioned this: That thin white pad on the bottom appears to be smaller in area than the saddle skirts. I believe that any padding needs to be larger than the skirts or the edge of it will cause a ridge under the skirts. Would be interested to hear the result of just going without that white pad. Just my 2 cents worth. dam Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hidepounder Report post Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Traveller, I've been watching this thread with great interest, have had to bite my tongue a couple of times, and now I'll add my two cents worth. I'm with Bruce & Mike & Greg & Doug on this...I don't think the laced skirts are the cause of the problem here. I think the problem is your cotton underpad. To begin with it's too small...based on the size of your felt pad, the underpad should be even with or extend slightly beyond your felt pad. Secondly it's cotton...I think this is not good. It should be wool or one of the neopreme type pads. Remember, we want our horses backs wet, not dry...that is why you see the wide spread movement to neopreme type pads and linings. In my humble opinion, however, in spite of all our technological advances....a felt pad over a doubled Navajo wool blanket is still one of the most successful means of padding a horse. I'm with Greg on the gel pads...I gave them to my dogs to sleep on! You definitely need the 1" felt pad because your gullet will be too low on the withers without it...it barely clears now! You have short rounded skirts and no back cinch...so the back of your saddle is constantly lifting and settling when you are loping, stopping, etc. This motion is accentuated if you have a horse that rounds well and does not hollow out, which you've stated is the case. As your horse rounds his back, the rear of the the saddle rises (or your horse moves away from it) and your cotton pad lifts the hair, rubs back and forth, breaking it off. If you're too low in front, your saddle runs down hill...that means the rear of the saddle is elevated. Additionally, you ride with your feet under you, as oppossed to in front of you...nothing wrong with that...great if you rope...but that "seat" makes your weight a forward moving force, which is also contributing to the movement of your saddle and pad in the rear. I'm also wondering if you're cinched tight enough! I think it would be really interesting to see if exchanging the small cotton pad for a double Navajo or neopreme pad would make a difference. If you were using a back cinch or if your skirts were longer in back I'd be more concerned about the lacing, there is no question that can be an issue...but in your situation I just don't think it is...I'd try the pad first! And please let us all know what you find out! Bob Edited January 4, 2009 by hidepounder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greg gomersall Report post Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) Traveller,I've been watching this thread with great interest, have had to bite my tongue a couple of times, and now I'll add my two cents worth. I'm with Bruce & Mike & Greg & Doug on this...I don't think the laced skirts are the cause of the problem here. I think the problem is your cotton underpad. To begin with it's too small...based on the size of your felt pad, the underpad should be even with or extend slightly beyond your felt pad. Secondly it's cotton...I think this is not good. It should be wool or one of the neopreme type pads. Remember, we want our horses backs wet, not dry...that is why you see the wide spread movement to neopreme type pads and linings. In my humble opinion, however, in spite of all our technological advances....a felt pad over a doubled Navajo wool blanket is still one of the most successful means of padding a horse. I'm with Greg on the gel pads...I gave them to my dogs to sleep on! You definitely need the 1" felt pad because your gullet will be too low on the withers without it...it barely clears now! You have short rounded skirts and no back cinch...so the back of your saddle is constantly lifting and settling when you are loping, stopping, etc. This motion is accentuated if you have a horse that rounds well and does not hollow out, which you've stated is the case. As your horse rounds his back, the rear of the the saddle rises (or your horse moves away from it) and your cotton pad lifts the hair, rubs back and forth, breaking it off. If you're too low in front, your saddle runs down hill...that means the rear of the saddle is elevated. Additionally, you ride with your feet under you, as oppossed to in front of you...nothing wrong with that...great if you rope...but that "seat" makes your weight a forward moving force, which is also contributing to the movement of your saddle and pad in the rear. I'm also wondering if you're cinched tight enough! I think it would be really interesting to see if exchanging the small cotton pad for a double Navajo or neopreme pad would make a difference. If you were using a back cinch or if your skirts were longer in back I'd be more concerned about the lacing, there is no question that can be an issue...but in your situation I just don't think it is...I'd try the pad first! And please let us all know what you find out! Bob Bob I will whole heartedly disagree with your take on neoprene pads being in any way useful with regards to a horse. you want padding that will wick the sweat away from the horses back not pads that trap heat to cause sweating. You live in a warm climate, try wrapping yourself in neoprene and going for a jog. Just my take on this. Greg Edited January 5, 2009 by greg gomersall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Brewer Report post Posted January 5, 2009 Greg.I have had this problem before,The skirts can't move with the horse.We fixed it by cutting the laces loose.No more wearing hair off. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greg gomersall Report post Posted January 5, 2009 Greg.I have had this problem before,The skirts can't move with the horse.We fixed it by cutting the laces loose.No more wearing hair off. Steve Steve I agree with you , as i said early in this thread the skirt edges need to be able to move independently of each other. Somehow Bob has my name listed as someone who doesn't think this could be the problem. Greg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Traveller Report post Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) I took the laces out (dang they were in there tight!) but of course I can't see right away whether that's made a difference because the hair has to grow back first. I had a really good ride after removing the laces but I've been having lots of good rides lately so can't be entirely sure that I've solved the problem. I'm happy to take the cotton pad out but am not entirely convinced it's the problem since I wore hair away on that part of Traveller's back before under a previous saddle and a 100% wool felt pad. I know cotton can be a problem in athletic situations since it gets wet, stays wet and rubs, but I don't sweat the horse much even though we work reasonably hard. When the weather warms up he'll start sweating again but he's a pretty mellow horse and is in good shape so I can arena ride him mostly at the trot with some good stretches of canter for the better part of an hour and he doesn't even sweat under his cinch this time of year (the cinch is sheepskin-lined and he always sweats there in the summer). The main reason the cotton pad's there is so is that the hair didn't rub off like it did the last time I used a wool felt pad. Plus it's easy to keep clean so that I never have to put a dirt-encrusted pad on my horse's back. As for it being a smaller size, I agree, David, that it's not ideal but the rubbed hair is in a bigger area than just where it meets the edge of the felt so I'm not sure that's the source of my woes. It's easy to remove the cotton pad (and I'll do that) but I think the problem is mostly to do with saddle fit, since I don't remember noticing rubbed hair until after I got physio done on the horse and he improved his way of going. Before physio, he was often inverted and tough to get round but had no rub marks, and after physio he started rounding up easily and is now round more often than not but has rub marks. I've had the saddle for about six months but the change in his body shape has changed the way the saddle fits. Pah, says I. I haven't replaced the wool felt/gel combo pad I'm riding in but will do that soon. You have all convinced me that 100% wool is the way to go. Joanne Edited January 5, 2009 by Traveller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hidepounder Report post Posted January 5, 2009 Sorry Greg & Mike & Doug & Bruce!!!!! I didn't say what I meant to at all! I was trying to say that I agreed with the points all of you made regarding the underpad and Navajo pads and gel pads, etc. That's not how it came out and I apologize to everyone...I didn't do a good job of explaining my thought!( not unusual!) I also agree with everyone that skirts should be allowed to move, and if Traveller gets them corrected she will be better off! However, I personally don't think that is what's happening in this case(I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time!). What bothers me is that the problem persists with an English saddle! I can't help but be suspicious of another cause...and a rounded back decreases contact with the back of the saddle...not increases it...so that's why I zeroed in on the cotton underpad. Anyway...my apologies to you guys...I didn't mean to put words in your mouth! Bob, P.S. Greg...I wouldn't suggest jogging anywhere here in the desert, in a double wool blanket or a neopreme pad! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doug Mclean Report post Posted January 5, 2009 Traveller: We are probabaly giving you a lot more free advice than you had hoped for. Here's the deal! 14" snow -10 to -20 and wind blowing. What else is there to do!!!! Maybe what you should do is post some pictures of your horse's back just after unsaddling from a normal ride. Then everyone would see first hand what you are describing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Traveller Report post Posted January 5, 2009 14" snow -10 to -20 and wind blowing. What else is there to do!!!! I'm glad I asked for advice in the winter! It sounds like summertime advice wouldn't have been anywhere near as good. I'll get shots today after my ride. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Traveller Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Here are some shots of Traveller's back where the hair is worn down. I took them immediately after the saddle came off today. It's getting quite bad, actually. I've only ridden twice since I cut the laces out and had a very good ride today, though it's got to be irritating for him, to say the least. Thanks again for all your suggestions. Joanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bruce johnson Report post Posted January 6, 2009 I am still having some trouble asking myself why this problem is showing up when he is moving better and still not showing soreness, being ridden in the same gear. I think it is motion. Do these pads shift at all when you move him around? I hate to say if it was my deal I would do this or that, but am going to anyway. I think he may be moving differently and creating more motion across the back under the rear bar pads. I would get rid of the underpad. I would swap out that front cinch for a string cinch. While that may not be an issue, the lining of the cinch has a slight amount of movement. That would be magnified in the back end. I'd put that back cinch on too, but then I use one all the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Denise Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Joanne, Am I seeing the pictures correctly that he is close to bald at the back near his spine? That is way past any bars and would point to the skirts holding tight down there as being part of the problem at least in my view. Thinking of other options: You removed your back cinch on October 30th. (http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=5847&hl=) Could that be correlated with when the hairs started to break off? When did you first notice and how long do you think it may have been happening before you noticed? As some commenting in that thread on rear riggings, how the front one is built affects how the saddle sits, and I wonder if the rear cinch is needed for this combination of horse and saddle. More questions for you... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Traveller Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Bruce, I'd have thought a more inverted horse would run into the back of the saddle, too. Maybe he's using his hind end more so it's coming more into contact with the back of the saddle? Or maybe since he's using his hind end more, he's got more movement happening in his back (he's definitely swinging more), so there's more opportunity for friction? As for the underpad, I rode the first two-thirds of my ride today with the underpad and then the last third without (it was going to be the last half but the ride got cut a little short in the end) to see whether he went differently and there was no difference, so I'll remove the underpad. If it's not helping it might very well be hurting. Denise, it's quite possible that removing the rear cinch had something to do with this and it just took a while for the hairs to get short enough for me to notice the problem. I always snugged up the rear cinch but of course not in the way you would the front cinch and never imagined it would help hold the back of the saddle down (it would be too tight then, right?). As you say, though, the back cinch may "balance" the saddle. It's good to know that the rubbing is happening behind the bars. Maybe that's why he's not showing soreness, even though it can't be entirely comfortable. Thanks for your time! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Denise Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Is it rubbing behind the bars? I was thinking from the pictures it was, but I can't really tell just from the pictures. (If it is the back bar tips rubbing there, they are awfully close together.) Best thing is to look at the end of the ride when the saddle has moved to where it normally sits, and see where the hair is broken off compared to the pad, the back of the skirts, etc. Are those bald spots or just different colored hair? What is above them? Pad? skirts? Where compared to the back of the skirts? If you put your saddle on without the pad in it's normal spot you can feel the back bar tips. Put your fingers under them as a marker and pull the saddle. Where are your fingers in relation to the rubbed areas? Take pictures, pointing out where the bars end, the skirts end, the pad ends. Hey, it's still cold out, and we can use the entertainment/education... And if you are taking more pictures, take a couple of the bottom of the saddle too. Maybe we can see if the sheepskin is worn a bit extra someplace. If it is packed down maybe we can tell a bit about how the skirts are blocked. All sorts of possibilities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tosch Report post Posted January 6, 2009 From the first as well as the second set of pictures you provided I have the impression that your horse's rear end is higher than his front end. I am wondering if this contributes to the problem. Doesn't help with finding a solution, though. Tosch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SITTINGUPHIGH1 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Yes Denise is right find were the spots compare to the saddle. Were on the saddle the spots are. The center spot seems like it could be the back part of the saddle tree bar. It looks like the spot is bigger on the right side. What lead does your horse favor? I can't see the other spots. Again see if the saddle tree is bridging is important. If you are bridging your have to much wieght on the rear of the bar. Just a note it may be rubbing only when your horse is running and trotting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Traveller Report post Posted January 7, 2009 Denise, here are the photos you suggested I take. I hope this is what you had in mind (sorry, the focus isn't great on some of them!): this is where the back of the bars are this is where the rub starts this is where the nearly bald spot is the underside of the saddle - there don't appear to be any rub marks The saddle isn't that old. A friend of mine bought it new last October and I bought it from her this summer, so that might account for why rub marks haven't shown up yet. I hope this information is helpful. Thanks again, everyone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Denise Report post Posted January 7, 2009 It looks like the bald spots are at the back of the inside corner of the bar. Is this right? And that is an awfully funny shape to the back of the bars if I'm seeing it correctly. They look almost square! Is that really the shape of the bars? That shape matches the rub marks pretty well then. Is this by any chance a flex tree? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Denise Report post Posted January 7, 2009 Thinking some more here... I can't see the inside edges of the bars. This means to me that the skirts have not been blocked (moulded to the bar) there, so whatever relief may have been built into the bar is negated by having stiff skirts lying flat underneath underneath them. Those bald spots are way too close to the spine for where the back of the bars should be, especially for a wide tree like you are supposed to have. So either it is the unblocked and tight laced skirts that are rubbing the bald spot there, or those back bar tips are way too close together. Picture taking time!!! Could you take another picture of the underside of the tree pointing out where the inside of the bars are? Often saddle problems are not just a one thing wrong/easy fix answer - as you are finding out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Traveller Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Denise, I won't be able to make it out to the barn until Friday but will get more pictures then. I don't know off-hand which shape the bars are, but I'm pretty sure it's not a flex tree. It's also a fairly heavy saddle -- about 40 lbs -- so the tree may be wood and rawhide. I'm seem to remember checking for rawhide but it's been a while, so I'll do that again, too. Thanks for your help! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bruce johnson Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Alright now I am seeing some suspicious areas looking underneath. Not much blocking between the bars. That should increase pressure over the back. My other concern now is what is holding the skirts together underneath. I may not lace to the end, but I lace them together between the bars. I am not seeing anything holding them together and I am wanting to see some overlap under the cantle? Almost looks like the right skirt is laying over the left under the cantle. Another concern - are these pocketed bars and the bars are just kind of floating around over the top of the skirts? Or the other side of the equation, the skirts are floating around underneath the bars? I am pretty sure those back strings are not doing much to keep anything stable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SITTINGUPHIGH1 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 The Billy Cook saddle is a wood/hide tree. I've looked at those before. I agree the right rear inside of the bar is were the rub mark is coming from. A few things could be causing that. The rear part of the bar doesn't have enought angle on them. So all the pressure is on the inside of the bar. Your wither pocket is to wide for that saddle. So that is causing a saddle to sit to high in the front. There by causing a bridge in the center of the saddle. That would cause to much pressure on the rear part on the saddle tree. And the rear bars could be to close for your horse. All these problem would show up more when running then walking. You may give him a brake from running for a away. See if the hair grows back. Changing the pad may help the problem not be as bad. It's hard to tell in a picture. That's just my opinion. I would bring your horse and saddle to the nearest qualified saddle maker and let him look at it. After seeing it he may have some suggustions. In the end you may have to get a saddle tree made to fit your horse correctly. And then get a saddle maker to do the rest. I had a problem with my Billy Cook. My horse grew to big for it. It's three things that cause back problems the horse, saddle or the rider. Here is a interesting article to read about saddle problems. Saddle Fit by Dusty Johnson Mort Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jwwright Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Bruce...........my eyes caught the same things. I will bet that those skirts have a couple of nails drove through them into the cantle gullet. Most all of the Texas factory saddles I have messed with have been done that way, and then laced together only the last inch or two. Seems bass ackward to me. JW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
