Please take pity on me and HELP....

[entiendo]

I'm almost in tears...here's the picture, this is the 3rd time I've tried to figure out this interweave. The first this knot was all black but I ended up with parallels that were not split when I went back to tighten the knot. Since this is the very first time I've taken on a gaucho that was more than basic I thought maybe I just missed something. I took it all out and thought I should use a second color so I could watch what I was doing. My first choice was the natural but sadly that hide was to weak to do this button. I even cut 1/8 inch from my "A" cut of the hide and I still lost a string halfway through doing this darn knot, so sadly I didn't get far enough to know if my second color idea was working. Now here I am, I thought I was finished and it just does not look right and I still have parallels! Help. please. I looked through my book and I thought I did it right but clearly I'm doing something wrong.

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Edited December 27, 2008 by entiendo

[entiendo]

Oh and here is a picture where I circled a couple of the parallels, thought that might be helpful.

[CitizenKate]

entiendo, I am sorry I do not have the answer to your dilemma. But there are some very good braiders who are members here, so I am very confident you will get some help soon.

Kate

[rawhide1]

entiendo

It looks like you had finished the knot and then came back trying to braid in a extra string. I really can't tell from the pictures but thats my best guess. I'm at work right now and the screen aint the best. I'm hoping someone else will chime in here and let us know for sure. If not when I get home in the morning and get some time I'll try and get a better look at it.

Best of luck!!

Mike

[entiendo]

The blue is the interweave. I see what you are saying, it looks like I added an extra black pass, but that's not the case.

[HorsehairBraider]

Entiendo - is this a knot with a foundation or turk's head that you tie first? If so, take a deep breath... and take out the blue. Then go over your foundation with a fine-toothed comb and make sure there are no mistakes in it. Once you are CERTAIN your foundation is good, and that you've got it distributed evenly, start again... and take it easy and slow. Pour yourself a nice cup of your favorite beverage and don't get in any hurry.

If this is one that does not have a foundation (what I would call a "built" knot) I would suggest to just start over. This sometimes happens - you get an over mixed up with an under in one or two places and the next thing you know you have invented a new knot... one that can't be tied evenly... It's OK to start over. That's how you learn.

There is a way to tie a knot like this with several strands. You might try that too, as I've personally found it a nice way to go. It seems to go pretty fast, and you don't wear the leather out pulling it through so many overs and unders.

[entiendo]

Yes, this has a foundation turk's head, and I did go over it with a fine tooth comb when I messed up on the black and then went over it again when I pulled out the natural. I'm certain that the foundation string is correct because I've never had any trouble with large herringbone interweaves. In fact there is a large herringbone on the other end of this quirt.

But thank you very, very much. I'm prepared to pull it apart but I need to know what it is I'm doing wrong because I already have hours and hours invested in this darn button and I can't make the same mistake(s) again.

And I'm dying to learn how to do nose buttons, I think that's what they are called, but haven't figured it out yet.

Edited December 27, 2008 by entiendo

[KAW]

You messesed up on one complete pass cause your double repeats itself throughout the knot to fix it you will have to back it up and do it over or cut it off and start over , sometimes its easier just to start over cause if your mistake was is in the foundation you will likely cut it off anyway, some times it helps to leave it for awhile then start it over another day. hope you get it worked out.

[TwinOaks]

I haven't tried the goucho knot yet, but I found out something interesting ( and related) when I made some 'spanish ring' bracelets for Christmas gifts.

For the spanish ring, the primary knot (turks head) must be based on sets of 4 bights (forgive me if I have my terms wrong- I'm calling a bight the criss crossing of one of the two original loops). When I tried to make it with 6 bights, the o/u passes ended up on the wrong side of the standing end to finish the knot. 8 bights, or 2 sets, brought the running end back to the same side as the standing end, like the 4 bight.

I mention this because it sounds like you've either added a or missed a bight in the base knot, and it's thrown off the o/u pattern by one string/lace.

[HorsehairBraider]

Yeah, it does look like you messed up on a couple of passes with the blue. Your foundation does look OK from what I can see. But all I can really say is, pull out the blue and start over. I can't tell if the wrong passes are at the start (that's what I would think is the case) or at the end... or somewhere in the middle. You did it pretty consistently though, the whole pass shows it.

Using a contrasting color is good. If your pattern starts to go wrong stop right away and look things over real careful. The contrasting color will bring up a pattern pretty quick, in this case zig zags straight up and down the knot. The minute you get something in the wrong place stop and see what is going on. That's the best I can tell you, without you sitting right here and me showing you.

[entiendo]

How in the world can I mess up a whole pass??? What I'm going to do is make a smaller one using Gail Hought's directions. Hopefully I will figure out what I'm doing wrong. It is after all the same button just smaller. I'll let you all know what I come up with.

And I believe that is an 8 bite, 6 didn't cover it. If I have to take out all the string again I will take a picture of the foundation button.

Both strings seem to be in pretty good shape so I'm going to hold off cutting them...for the moment. The black has got some abuse but it's an "A" cut.

I can't imagine I messed up on the first pass because it's the easy one, just a couple of parallels to split, but you know I might back out the first pass and see if there is anything to see, cause that would be easy to fix...well I think.

Thank so much everyone, if anything else comes to you let me know.

[HorsehairBraider]

No no- don't back out the *first* pass! Start by taking out the very last one you made, and go from there. You never know. At some point you might say, "well that much is OK" and then you can start going forwards not backwards. Also, write down what you take out! Maybe when you see on paper what you did, it will make sense that it was not the right move.

[entiendo]

Well I have good news and bad news...good new is I do have the right idea. I just made a perfect 6 bite gaucho with no left over parallels, with Gail's instructions of course. Course that doesn't help me with my large gaucho, because I didn't have a light bulb moment. I bet I followed the wrong string for one of those passes, because the parallels are consistent....

AWWWWWW!!! I just want to scream...

Well off to see if I can figure it out.

[entiendo]

Ok guys, I cut the button off started completely over from scratch and I made the exact same mistakes! HELP!!! Does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong? Please!!!

[TwinOaks]

You're holding your tongue wrong?.....

Edited December 28, 2008 by TwinOaks

[rawhide1]

entiendo

I've looked at that knot until my eyes hurt!! I just can't tell were ya went wrong. Maybe if ya start over and take a picture of the foundation and then one when you build your parallels and so on. So we can see the knot as it progress's. Just a idea. Keep after it we'll eventually get it figured out. I know I've spent days on a knot I've been stuck on and finally a light will click on.

Mike

[entiendo]

entiendo

I've looked at that knot until my eyes hurt!! I just can't tell were ya went wrong. Maybe if ya start over and take a picture of the foundation and then one when you build your parallels and so on. So we can see the knot as it progress's. Just a idea. Keep after it we'll eventually get it figured out. I know I've spent days on a knot I've been stuck on and finally a light will click on.

Mike

All right mike, that does seem the next logical step, thank you very much. That's a lot of pictures though. I'll post them on my photobucket account so I don't slow down the loading of this thread and the board. They should be good pictures so nothing is missed. How often should I take a picture? At each whole pass or every time I make a turn? Not sure.

Again, everyone thank you so much for trying to help me out. I know most of you have been in in this same position. It just seems so easy, I can figure out why in the heck it isn't coming out right. I'm about to throw this darn thing at a wall, course it won't break so a lot of good that will do...

[Alan Bell]

Entiendo, I guess it can be tough living up to your name. (little inside joke) Well, it is hard judging from the pics to see where things went wrong but I notice times where you are not consistent in your pattern and go under or over the wrong number of strings. If you are thinking O1, U2, O2, U1 ETC. and trying to remember the full sequence and then trying to remember the next sequence whether it is the same as the previous one or the enlargement then things can get very confusing. I tend to watch the full pattern build and know that I need to split pairs as I go along. I may "trace ahead" and imagine where my strings need to end up to complete the pattern I am trying to make BEFORE I run the string, this is especially helpful when starting up or down for the next pass to make sure you are getting your string under the correct number to come out in the right spot. The other thing is to know that you are in good company and you should save any knots you cut off. They will be something to look back on and realize how far you've come and also to show others that come after you EXACTLY what it takes to become a good braider! I have a little bucket full of cut off knots and quite a few braiders I know have kept theirs also. I have little doubt that you WILL get this sorted out and WILL go on to be a great braider! Struggling through these things is the best teacher I know of! Mi, entiendes?

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell aka Alonso Campana

[HorsehairBraider]

I've got one more suggestion: Black is very hard to see. Change color in the knot to something MUCH lighter. If you are indeed following the string down on the wrong side (and it looks like you are) you'll be able to tell a lot easier in a lighter color.

And remember, you're doing this for FUN....

[entiendo]

Yes, this is my Internet name and I do tend to make it fit me. Ha, ha....

I do not think over and under, I simply follow a string, in this case I follow the original standing string from beginning to end, passing over it at each turn.

Oh yeah Horsehair...lots of fun...ya see me smiling don't ya!

I haven't kept my messed up knots, I reuse all my string and on the occasions when I have cut one I've given them to my cockatoo to play with. I did keep the turk's head from this knot though.

Here are the first pictures though...Maybe they can shed some light.

[tonyc1]

I haven't kept my messed up knots, I reuse all my string and on the occasions when I have cut one I've given them to my cockatoo to play with. I did keep the turk's head from this knot though.

What sort of cockatoo do you have ?

Tony.

[entiendo]

I have an adopted Moluccan Cockatoo.

[tonyc1]

I have an adopted Moluccan Cockatoo.

Their very similar to our Sulphur Crested white cockatoos but prettier, that we have down here in plentiful numbers. We also have Black Cockatoos, but not so many of them. The white ones are very destructive and noisy although some I know, do talk well. I know I wouldn't want one as a pet!

Tony

[entiendo]

I don't think they should be pets at all. They are very difficult to care for and unpredictable, albeit, it is very rewarding. However, 99% of the population cannot properly care for any large bird, but that's just my opinion. People say my cockatoo is spoiled, but I think I just do for him what needs to be done.

Anywho, enough on that, back to braiding...

[rawhide1]

entiendo

can you take a picture of the blue thong where it makes it turn before coming back down. I'm not sure but something just doesn't seem right with that thong as it's coming down. It would be nice to see your turn.

Mike