Barry King vs. Jeremiah Watt

[flathat4life]

Since im new here gess i'll introduce my self. My name is Jed Rice and im 15 years old. I'm completely self taught and have been doing leather work for about two years. I started out by makin myself a pair of chinks and a head stall. I realy enjoy biulding armitas and other tack items for myself and other working cowboys in the great-basin/nevada area. I'm currently trying to start my first saddle. Things are a little premature still but i hope to have a tree and some herman oak sides ready to go in the next couple of months.(this forum will be a BIG help on that project forsure!) I'm looking at upgrading all of my craftools to some better grade stuff (Bary King- maybe Jeremiah Watt) but i want your guys opinion first.

I was looking at trying barry kings basket and border stamps, swivle knife, edgers and possibly a taperd head round maul.

Is there a better bang for the buck, what stuff do you guys prefer? i'v seen a little talk on here about JW tools. are his edgers better that barrys? what else is on the market for high quality basket stamps.

I apreciate your guys input.

P.S.- This forum is awsome. i'ts great to finally be able to talk to people with the same interst. i just found this place a few days ago and i cant get of it =). you guys will definately be a big help when i start my saddle.

[bruce johnson]

Jed,

My thoughts, and there are a ton of different opinions and experiences on the forum. Exactly what to get depends on your budget and what to get first. The best bang for the buck is stamping tools from Barry in my mind.

Swivel knives - I have one from Barry, one from Henley, an old Hackbarth, and two Old Smoothies - that means either I don't know which one is best, I use each for different things, or there really isn't that much difference once you get to that level.

Edgers - I have some from Bob Douglas, some from Barry, some from Jeremiah, and some old Gomph and Osbornes. I had a set from Ron Edmonds too. Pick what works for your budget, there really aren't any that I would say, "For sure don't buy". I have a few different patterns, and use them all. Don't ignore a good set of old ones.

Border stamps - Pick whoever has a design you like. Barry King, Jeremiah Watt, Wayne Jueschke, Ellis Barnes all have some a little different and some the same style. Pick a couple medium sized ones in different patterns to start with maybe.

Baskets - Personal preference - I like baskets that are not real long and narrow. I like baskets that have decently thick legs. Skinny cutting legs tend to be harder to keep lined up. If you can run them and keep them square - great. The thicker legs are a little more forgiving. I like there to be some depth between the legs at the ends of the stamp. That lets me stamp the centers relatively deep and make the weave "pop". The stamp is not mashing down everything. I like varying centers, if nothing else to keep me interested. The baskets I use the most are from Barry King and then Wayne. They are the shape and have the centers and legs I like. I have one from Jeremiah in the users. It was longer and shallower between the legs than I liked, but I liked the center pattern. I shortened it up on each end with a grinder. I filed and polished out between the legs to deepen that area and made it the way I like them. I had some from Ellis Barnes, and they were relatively longer and the legs were thin. Some guys like that, personal preference. The guy that bought them is happy as a clam. He likes that style and lot of people do. For geometrics again most of all of what I use comes from Barry, Wayne, and Jeremiah. For flower centers - Barry, Wayne, and some from Ellis I have modified.

For mauls I use tapered mauls from Wayne for the baskets and geometrics. They are more weighted to the head and give me the heavier feel I like for set stamping. For lighter stamping, smaller stamps, and walking tools I use straight mauls from Barry. Barry's are more neutrally weighted.

[flathat4life]

Jed,

My thoughts, and there are a ton of different opinions and experiences on the forum. Exactly what to get depends on your budget and what to get first. The best bang for the buck is stamping tools from Barry in my mind.

Swivel knives - I have one from Barry, one from Henley, an old Hackbarth, and two Old Smoothies - that means either I don't know which one is best, I use each for different things, or there really isn't that much difference once you get to that level.

Edgers - I have some from Bob Douglas, some from Barry, some from Jeremiah, and some old Gomph and Osbornes. I had a set from Ron Edmonds too. Pick what works for your budget, there really aren't any that I would say, "For sure don't buy". I have a few different patterns, and use them all. Don't ignore a good set of old ones.

Border stamps - Pick whoever has a design you like. Barry King, Jeremiah Watt, Wayne Jueschke, Ellis Barnes all have some a little different and some the same style. Pick a couple medium sized ones in different patterns to start with maybe.

Baskets - Personal preference - I like baskets that are not real long and narrow. I like baskets that have decently thick legs. Skinny cutting legs tend to be harder to keep lined up. If you can run them and keep them square - great. The thicker legs are a little more forgiving. I like there to be some depth between the legs at the ends of the stamp. That lets me stamp the centers relatively deep and make the weave "pop". The stamp is not mashing down everything. I like varying centers, if nothing else to keep me interested. The baskets I use the most are from Barry King and then Wayne. They are the shape and have the centers and legs I like. I have one from Jeremiah in the users. It was longer and shallower between the legs than I liked, but I liked the center pattern. I shortened it up on each end with a grinder. I filed and polished out between the legs to deepen that area and made it the way I like them. I had some from Ellis Barnes, and they were relatively longer and the legs were thin. Some guys like that, personal preference. The guy that bought them is happy as a clam. He likes that style and lot of people do. For geometrics again most of all of what I use comes from Barry, Wayne, and Jeremiah. For flower centers - Barry, Wayne, and some from Ellis I have modified.

For mauls I use tapered mauls from Wayne for the baskets and geometrics. They are more weighted to the head and give me the heavier feel I like for set stamping. For lighter stamping, smaller stamps, and walking tools I use straight mauls from Barry. Barry's are more neutrally weighted.

bruce,

thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. i appreciate it!

i can tell you and i have the same preferance taste when it com to some of this stuff. i to prefer the broader basket stamp with a deeper set to it(althoe i have seen some skinny deep set ones i like ones i liked). i also prefer a hevyer head on my maul to set big stamps(baskets, geos., ect.) and a more balanced one for smaller stamps.

thanks for clarifying the differance in feel betweeen the two brands. -you input will realy help-

[hidepounder]

I am 100% with Bruce on this! Once you make the decision to get into professional quality tools, it all comes down to personal preference. What I have discovered is that no one maker is better at everything. I use bevelers from one maker, shaders from another and geometrics from a third and so on. The same applies to hand tools. They all have their specialties and price ranges vary. When it comes to round knives, swivel knife blades, edgers and such, I happen to prefer the older hardened steel tools over the newer stainless ones. Again, a matter of personal preference. I can tell you with complete confidence, that it is worth the expense to travell to one of the shows where you can see all of these suppliers under one roof and have an opportunity to compare their products! Even if you didn't buy a single thing, it is a necessary move to enable you to decide exactly what you like. Hope this helps....

Bob

[flathat4life]

thanks hidepounder-

i have thaught about doing somthing like that (maybe this summer=) i'm geting my driver licence this week so then i will be a little more mobile.

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Is there any body else out there with a opinion? would like to hear from you!

- thanks guys-

Edited January 1, 2009 by flathat4life

[jwwright]

Jed.........you have recieved good advice from the others all ready.......I sure agree with what they say. I don't think you can go wrong with tools from any of the high quality makers. Personally, I have gravitated toward Jeremiah Watt's tools. I use edgers, round knives, stamps, dividers, and stitch groovers from him daily. For sewing awls, Bob Douglas is the man.....and he is a great source for many other tools, both new and vintage such as heel shaves, bouncers, etc. I like Barry King stamps and mauls as well. For drive punches, I have been pleased with the master tool line from Weavers. Just some of my thoughts...........JW.

[flathat4life]

THANKS ALOT!! for your guys input on this. all your opinion have REALY helped so thanks.

i realize now that im only like the one-hundredth person to ask these questions about barry king and JW tools but thanks for takeing the time to post your thought and helping me out... i realy appreciate it!

..... ok so i think i have pretty much much every thing figured out as far as what i plan on ordering but i need one more thing.... i would like to know what weight(pound or oz.) of the mauls you guys use and what you use them for... what little exsperiance i do have with mauls have been reaaly old ones that i couldn't pull weights off of.... thanks again-

[bruce johnson]

Jed,

My lineup.

12 oz and 16 oz Barry King straight - most small stamps, walking tools, and shaders

16 oz Wayne Jueshcke tapered- medium and larger baskets, medium block stamps

32 oz Wayne Jueschke tapered - larger blocks

32 oz Barry King straight - rivet setting, end punches, and slots punches. Good secure handle shape for "whacking".

[jwwright]

I don't do much in the way of carving, just stamping mainly, so my mauls are at about the 32 oz size for stamping and punching, etc. In a realted topic, I will offer my observation about any type of punch,,,,,,drive, end, etc. You can find some brands of punches that the striking end is not totally flat, they are somewhat rounded or beveled on the edges. It is pretty easy to not strike those squarley with a maul, and you hit kind of glancing blow. The pain in your hand gets old in a hurry. JW

[hidepounder]

The mauls I use are as follows:

12 oz tapered maul by Barry King for tooling on 3-4 oz leather. (rarely used).

16 oz maul from Bob Beard for general tooling.

20 oz maul from Bob Beard for flower centers, basket stamping, geometric borders and shading on larger leaf patterns.

24 oz maul from Bob Beard for strap end, bag and hole punching. rivet setting.

I sold my 32 oz Osborne maul and wish I had it back!

[flathat4life]

Thanks again guys!!! you have no idea how much i appreciate all your help. Theres not alot of good saddle makers (or even leather workers for that matter) in my area that i can get help and advise like this from. Most guys i've come across (say at a trade show or somthing) just blow me off when i ask a little question about tools or how they did somthing. Some probly has to do with my age and i know that a guy cant give out all his secrets but i like how everyone on this forum is so willing to help others with their projects and shar their process of doing things....... just wanted to say how much i apreciate not only your guys exsperiance and exspertice in answering questions but also how respectful and humblely you all come across..... Its truely a blessing to have found this site and all its cool things to offer..... thanks to every body who makes this place what it is!

I called Wayne Jueschke and e-mailed Bob Beard today for a catologe today and thy are on their way. it was realy neat to have one of wayne's kids( maybe his wife?) answer the phone... i apreciate the fact the somone with a well know name is still home based and runs family centered bissness.(as i understand barry and a number of other people in the trade are the same way).... kinda cool.

i still have to get the catologs before i make my final decisions but here's my plan for the first set of upgrades.......

- a couple basket stamps from barry (unless one of waynes realy strikes me)

- a couple borders from barry

- barrys swivle knife

- Jeremiah watts edgers

- "about" a 20-24oz. tapered head maul from wayne( for baskets/geos.)

- 16 oz. tapperd head maul from barry ( smaller stamps)

we'll see how much damage shiping doses. i may have to wait on barrys maul and some of the edgers. i probly should just buy one of JW's edgers for the first try enyway to make sure i like it before spending monney on all of them.( im sure i will completely satisfied though).

thanks again for all you guys input... exspecially on those mauls, bruce... it helped having someone on my same mind level with sorta the same likes to explin the differance between makers.... Everyones opinions helped!

im fixing to start a saddle as i stated before..... i been wanting to buy the Dale harwood DVD's... i'v herd that just seeing him run his tools is worth the monney in it self, not to mention how claer and layed out the instructions and examples are.... now that ive found this site maybe i can postpone that purchase a little (exspecially sence these tools will be carving ito my pigy bang) and buy a tree instead(although i would like to have those DVD's).... So i will definatly be asking more questions in the near future... mostly having to do wil ground seats, rigging mesureing, plus a little on the cantle and cap and wrap horn..... having lived in the heart of buckaroo country i'v had the chance to sit in and study alot of top quality wade saddles from tom makers.... i'm hopeing that if nothing else the lines and ground seat of my first saddle are desent(but im still going to try my best on tooling and edges)...one of my biggest pet-pees is a uncomfortable seat and bad lines......... with your guys help i should be able to do well on all aspects of this project =)

I dont mean to go on and on but again i really appreciate everything.............. i'll post my thaughts on the tools when i get them in...(CANT WAIT)!!!!!

~Happy Trails~

Edited January 2, 2009 by flathat4life

[hidepounder]

There are a couple more people you need to know about. Ron's Tool Co., www.ronstools.com make excellent edgers. Also Barry King and Bob Beard are both now producing edgers. The other name you need is Bob Douglas, 307/737-2222. He has his own of tools, so get his brochure, and he buys, reconditions and sells the old tools which are no longer made. He is one of the most knowledgable people I have ever met with regard to hand tools, knives, leather machines, etc. Before you make any decisions about hand tools...be sure to speak to Bob.

Good Luck!

Bob

[flathat4life]

There are a couple more people you need to know about. Ron's Tool Co., www.ronstools.com make excellent edgers. Also Barry King and Bob Beard are both now producing edgers. The other name you need is Bob Douglas, 307/737-2222. He has his own of tools, so get his brochure, and he buys, reconditions and sells the old tools which are no longer made. He is one of the most knowledgable people I have ever met with regard to hand tools, knives, leather machines, etc. Before you make any decisions about hand tools...be sure to speak to Bob.

Good Luck!

Bob

thanks hide pounder,

i will look into those options, i'v looked into barrys edgers... i may endup going with his just to keep from paying shiping on another order.... i'v also seen the ron edgers on his site (a little more monny than barrys orJW's).... if i remember right i met a old guy that built saddles and he had a set....he owned about every brand of tools under the sun (wish i was closer to him because he could probly help me alot).. he liked them cuz their fast to sharpen w/ the rod..... i will give bob a call and talk to him.. sounds like he knows his stuff!

thanks again,

jed

[JAM]

Hey, Jed,

Julia here (in Rathdrum) - I am a hopeless toolaholic and although I'm not in the same talent league as your other respondents, I collect lots of tools... and while I agree with the others about the high quality and differences between all the aforementioned makers, Bob Douglas is at the top of my list. He makes absolutely the best bissonette edgers I've ever used, and his traveling collection of restored vintage tools (all for sale) is alone worth the trips to the Pendleton and Sheridan shows every year.

Edited January 3, 2009 by JAM

[bruce johnson]

Julia,

That is a fact about Bob and Bob's bisonettes. Unfortunately at least when I last talked to him (late Sept/early October) he was out with maybe plans to make more. I have a #1 and #4 I bought before, and was planning on filling the set in at the Sheridan show. Hindsight is 20/20. He was out before the show. I have got some from Barry and some from Jeremiah in the meantime. Barry's #2 and Jeremiah's #1 are pretty close in size. However Barry's bladestock is wider at the tip, so you need to run it on the edge of the bench with thinner pieces to allow for the blade width on the close to 45 degree cut I do. Barry's holds an edge a little longer than Jeremiah's in my experience. The trade off there is that Jeremiah's sharpen up faster for me.

[JAM]

Julia,

That is a fact about Bob and Bob's bisonettes. Unfortunately at least he last I talked to him (late Sept/early October) he was out with maybe plans to make more. I have a #1 and #4 I bought before, and was planning on filling the set in at the Sheridan show. Hindsight is 20/20. He was out before the show.

Out of stock - not unexpected with these superb one-man-shop toolmakers. That, and taking forever to get to yours in the long list of waiting orders. Then again, sometimes things worth having are worth waiting for... and waiting... and waiting... and waiting...

I have his #3 and use it for nearly everything, and also his cool little inside-tight-corners bissonette - the one that looks folded over at the tip. It's an amazing little tool.

I want to collect the whole rest of his set - guess I'd better get on the list.

Julia

[gtwister09]

I agree with Bruce and Bob on the tools and such. Try them....

I was lucky enough once to catch an auction with 6 of Barry's mauls for about $10-11 each for the lot (Straight 16, 24, 32, 48 and 64 oz & 16 oz tapered). I also have an Al Stohlman rawhide one (not the greatest but it's ok), a couple of Bob's (Gave one to my Dad) and have a couple that we have made. I like the tapered one a lot for regular tooling. For geometrics, I made a 22 oz tapered that is a little more top heavy than Barry's 24 oz. I will concur that they are neutrally balanced. The 64 oz rarely sees any service. The 48 oz is used for large arch punches and strap cutters.

Like some of the others I have more swivel knifes than you can shake a stick at. A Toolaholic - YES! I have Tandy's starters, a Tandy Pro, an Ol' Smoothie, a couple of Henleys, a couple of handmades, a Hackbarth and one of Barry's. I didn't spend the money on one of Bob's knives because the ones he had at shows were thicker than I liked. However I do have a couple of Bob's blades. Likewise I haven't tried the Leather Wrangler's knife/blade either. Make sure and test them and understand what your best length and diameter of knife would be. Here's a link to help with that.

Swivel Knife Topic

Bob's edgers that are "out of stock" have been that way for more than two years. I had aspirations of completing my Douglas set but to no avail. I bought one of Jeremiah's and one of Barry's and was testing them to see what set I would purchase. I also asked Bruce about this as well and he confirmed what I had already found out. I will most likely go with Barry for the edgers if I don't find some used ones of Bob's (I do have a possible find on a complete set so I will wait and see).

Regards,

Ben

[flathat4life]

Thanks again guys,

i suppost to get the catologes today but i think im going to go with barrys edgers... since bob is so back ordered i think barrys the next best for rightnow... im definatly interested in a used set so if eny body comes across eny let me know...

Jed

[flathat4life]

OK.... sorry its taking me so long to get back with you guys but my home internet has been down fo the last week and a half...

I orderd a couple basket stamps, some border stamps, a swivle knife, and a #2 edger from barry and got them in about a week ago... Everything is absolutly AMAZING!... I love how deep and crisp both the borders and baskets tun out... His edge is edger is so easy to push and leaves a realy increadible edge... im still working with the swivle knife trying to get used to the quickness but italso is very smooth and easyto operate...

I also ordered Wayne's 2lbs. taperd maul... Its the absolut "Perfect" weight and feel that i wanted to achive...it perfect for runing my baskets/borders and i just choke up on it to bevel or use other small stamps intell i can order a lighter maul from barry..

Thanks again guys for all the help..

Jed

[hallbuilt]

Thanks again guys!!! you have no idea how much i appreciate all your help. Theres not alot of good saddle makers (or even leather workers for that matter) in my area that i can get help and advise like this from. Most guys i've come across (say at a trade show or somthing) just blow me off when i ask a little question about tools or how they did somthing. Some probly has to do with my age and i know that a guy cant give out all his secrets but i like how everyone on this forum is so willing to help others with their projects and shar their process of doing things....... just wanted to say how much i apreciate not only your guys exsperiance and exspertice in answering questions but also how respectful and humblely you all come across..... Its truely a blessing to have found this site and all its cool things to offer..... thanks to every body who makes this place what it is!

I called Wayne Jueschke and e-mailed Bob Beard today for a catologe today and thy are on their way. it was realy neat to have one of wayne's kids( maybe his wife?) answer the phone... i apreciate the fact the somone with a well know name is still home based and runs family centered bissness.(as i understand barry and a number of other people in the trade are the same way).... kinda cool.

i still have to get the catologs before i make my final decisions but here's my plan for the first set of upgrades.......

- a couple basket stamps from barry (unless one of waynes realy strikes me)

- a couple borders from barry

- barrys swivle knife

- Jeremiah watts edgers

- "about" a 20-24oz. tapered head maul from wayne( for baskets/geos.)

- 16 oz. tapperd head maul from barry ( smaller stamps)

we'll see how much damage shiping doses. i may have to wait on barrys maul and some of the edgers. i probly should just buy one of JW's edgers for the first try enyway to make sure i like it before spending monney on all of them.( im sure i will completely satisfied though).

thanks again for all you guys input... exspecially on those mauls, bruce... it helped having someone on my same mind level with sorta the same likes to explin the differance between makers.... Everyones opinions helped!

im fixing to start a saddle as i stated before..... i been wanting to buy the Dale harwood DVD's... i'v herd that just seeing him run his tools is worth the monney in it self, not to mention how claer and layed out the instructions and examples are.... now that ive found this site maybe i can postpone that purchase a little (exspecially sence these tools will be carving ito my pigy bang) and buy a tree instead(although i would like to have those DVD's).... So i will definatly be asking more questions in the near future... mostly having to do wil ground seats, rigging mesureing, plus a little on the cantle and cap and wrap horn..... having lived in the heart of buckaroo country i'v had the chance to sit in and study alot of top quality wade saddles from tom makers.... i'm hopeing that if nothing else the lines and ground seat of my first saddle are desent(but im still going to try my best on tooling and edges)...one of my biggest pet-pees is a uncomfortable seat and bad lines......... with your guys help i should be able to do well on all aspects of this project =)

I dont mean to go on and on but again i really appreciate everything.............. i'll post my thaughts on the tools when i get them in...(CANT WAIT)!!!!!

~Happy Trails~

[hallbuilt]

Jed,

I have the Harwood video's if you would like to borrow them. Let me know and I'll put 'em in the mail. It's nice to see someone your age so interested in the craft.

Mike Hall

[Tkleather1]

Jed,

I have the Harwood video's if you would like to borrow them. Let me know and I'll put 'em in the mail. It's nice to see someone your age so interested in the craft.

Mike Hall

Shoot if he isnt interested in that offer I sure would be

[Tkleather1]

hey flathat just curious what did all those tools run ya? I too am going to purchase a bunch of new tools probably from barry but not sure how much I want to spend yet.

[flathat4life]

haulbuilt,

I really appreciate the offer but i just bought a set of his dvd's a few weeks ago. been glued to the tv ever since to.. lol. It's amazing to watch Mr. Harwood use his tools (which are incredibly sharp!!!) and build such a fine quality rig in three days. It took a little saving but i would say the dvds were worth every penney spent. Thanks anyway though! again i realy appreciate!

Jed

[flathat4life]

hey flathat just curious what did all those tools run ya? I too am going to purchase a bunch of new tools probably from barry but not sure how much I want to spend yet.

Tk,

I paid the same price for everything that is advertised on Barrys web site. Call Wayne to get one of his catologs but his stuff runs a little more that barrys.Still have a lot left on the list to get but i just have to keep chipping away at it. I'v been trying to save up for a high quality tree though so my tool buying has been on hold.