quick question about dyes

[EfrainBG]

A quick (not that quick, really) question about dyes... acrylic dyes, to be specific.

Question #1: Once I apply one of these I can kiss any pull-up in the leather goodbye, right?

I ask because I'm looking for a very dark brown or chestnut color, but I have only natural color leather at hand.

I've made some progress with stains and dyes through trial and error, but I'm not quite where I want to be in terms of color (I've actually found a color I' might use on another project).

All straps have the same base: 9 parts brown stain, 1 part black stain, 40 parts light paint thinner (UN number 1263... in case that means something). 

All straps were dip-stained in that soup and let dry. 

The differences:

From left to right:

- #1 and #3 were resisted with neatsfoot oil and dried before staining.
- #2 and #4 were stained first and then neatsfoot oiled once they dried.
- all of them received an extra layer of neatsfoot oil when dried from the previous steps.
- #3 and #4 were dyed with acrylic dye, #3 without diluting and #4 at 50% dilution (diluted with the same paint thinner mentioned above). (NOTE: These look rather dull in the photo, but are actually quite shiny and nice)

Once dried, all received a coat of Fiebing's Tan-Kote

The color I'm after is basically the one in #3 and #4, but, having used an acrylic dye, I'm afraid they loose that nice, light pull-up I've got from #1 and #2 (shown below)... #1 and #2's by the way,  is the color I mentioned I'll use for another project...

Question #2: Is there anything on the market that can give me the color I want without loosing the pull-up effect?

Thanks in advance!!

[DpMaquilon]

What is the pull-up effect?

[Mike516]

I'm a little confused. You said you're using dyes but then you say you used a stain.

Which did you use dyes on and which did you use stain on?

[NVLeatherWorx]

Fair question there Mike516.  There is a huge difference in the way that a dye and a stain penetrate the leather as well as the resulting outcome from each.  Another key question here is what brand, and more specifically, exactly which products within that brand, are you using for your testing?  And to clear the record here, Neatsfoot oil is not a resist, it is a conditioner only.  Denatured alcohol would be a better thinner than any paint thinner which has a tendency to actually dry leather out because it is so potent.  I achieve the same color as depicted in the farthest right sample of your photo above (I am assuming that would be #4) by simply applying two treatments of Fiebing's Dark Brown Pro Oil dye with a dauber, no need to dip dye as that would put too much pigment and dye into the leather and dry it out much more during the drying phase.  This whole thing about dip dying is overused and there really is no reason for such activity when working with veg-tan leather.  If you truly need a piece of leather that has been dyed all the way through then just buy a hide, side, etc. that has been drum dyed and call it a day.  The more you dye it the dryer it becomes; the dryer it becomes the more you have to condition it; the more you condition it, the more pliable it ends up.  This has been a fast and simple rule that I was taught decades ago in my youth and one that the Masters of Old lived by; it has worked for me since that time.

[EfrainBG]

First of all, Hi, everyone! Thanks for you answers. I'll try to answer each question:

5 hours ago, DpMaquilon said:

What is the pull-up effect?

The pull-up is, the way I understood, when leather color becomes clearer in spots where it's bent or pinched, like in the picture attached. This is not mine, It's a picture I borrowed from the Internet.

 

5 hours ago, Mike516 said:

I'm a little confused. You said you're using dyes but then you say you used a stain.

Which did you use dyes on and which did you use stain on?

I used stain as a base in all of them. Very diluted. When it dried the color came out very clear, yellowish. When I applied the neatsfoot oil it darkened quite a bit... to be precise, darkened to what you see on the first sample, from left to right. That's pretty much the base I was looking for to avoid white spots when applying the dye.

On #1 and #2 (left to right) I used only stain. In #1 the stain was applied before NF oil, in #2, after NF oil.

On #3 and #4 besides the stain I applied dye after a second coating of NF. #3 has undiluted dye, #4 has diluted dye 1:1.

 

15 minutes ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

Fair question there Mike516.  There is a huge difference in the way that a dye and a stain penetrate the leather as well as the resulting outcome from each.  Another key question here is what brand, and more specifically, exactly which products within that brand, are you using for your testing?  And to clear the record here, Neatsfoot oil is not a resist, it is a conditioner only.  Denatured alcohol would be a better thinner than any paint thinner which has a tendency to actually dry leather out because it is so potent.  I achieve the same color as depicted in the farthest right sample of your photo above (I am assuming that would be #4) by simply applying two treatments of Fiebing's Dark Brown Pro Oil dye with a dauber, no need to dip dye as that would put too much pigment and dye into the leather and dry it out much more during the drying phase.  This whole thing about dip dying is overused and there really is no reason for such activity when working with veg-tan leather.  If you truly need a piece of leather that has been dyed all the way through then just buy a hide, side, etc. that has been drum dyed and call it a day.  The more you dye it the dryer it becomes; the dryer it becomes the more you have to condition it; the more you condition it, the more pliable it ends up.  This has been a fast and simple rule that I was taught decades ago in my youth and one that the Masters of Old lived by; it has worked for me since that time.

- I left the brands out at the beginning because I'm using mexican products and I don't think they are really that well known out of Mexico. The stain brand is "Pielux", the dye brand is "La Corona". I'm really using these for availability reasons. I have no problem purchasing and importing from the US (other than transport regulations for certain products)... in the end, the prices is very similar, although slightly more expensive when buying from the US.

- I'll look up for a comprehensive list of resists... I read in a thread here that it was used as a resit, but I checked already and it was mentioned as an aid in antiquing. My mistake.

- I'll look for denatured alcohol... is that the one you get in a drugstore? I tried diluting dye with it and all it did was to separate into a pink liquid and a blotch of pasty-rubbery brown stuff that was unusable... almost as if it was cheqing gum... it tasted funny... hehe, just kiddin'!!

- The only thing I used to dip was the stain... I applied the dye with a dauber since I don't like what it does to the flesh side of leather.

- Another nice tip on the correlation between dyeing, conditioning and pliability... in the case of this project I'm working on, pliability is very desirable, so, nice to know to achieve a little extra of that one.

- I'm looking for that drum dyed piece of leather but I haven't been able to find it with my local provider... I did call several tanneries and ordered a sampler. I'm interested in the process because this natural colored, chrome tanned /veg retanned has a very nice feel to it and comes at an amazing price (give or take, around 3-3.5 dlls/sqft)... full grain and all.

Really, thanks a lot to all of you for your time and interest. I'll keep looking into this for more advice.

 

[NVLeatherWorx]

You may be able to find denatured alcohol in a pharmacy but the easiest place to find it would be through a local hardware store as it is carried in the paint department and used for several things painting related.  Sounds like you used some standard rubbing alcohol but it shouldn't have separated anything like what you described; that separation is an obvious flaw in the products that were used (i.e. the stain/dye) which is why it isn't always the smartest move to try and get stuff that is easy to get your hands on and if it isn't even heard of outside of a specific area then it probably is not of any decent quality and should be avoided.  We all have had to learn certain things along the way and most of them are through the school of hard knocks but at least we learn what NOT to do.  Good luck with your endeavors and your search for the drum dyed piece that will work.  Not knowing exactly where you are at, I am hesitant to suggest any possible sources.

[EfrainBG]

You have a point in getting some references before using a product. I only bought these because I asked arounf in local shops (saddles, shoe makers, general leather goods) and was pointed to those specific brands. I even used on previous small projects and did extensive testing on scrap pieces before using any on a project, no mater how small. However, now might be as good a time as any to try something new. Fiebing's seems to be a generally liked product and with lots of references around this and other sites.

I live in Monterrey, Mexico. I tracked down a mexican tannery that makes some of the leathers sold by Weaver. The name is Industrias Chahin (Chahin Industries) and they're who I ordered the samples from. It's going to take a while until I get my hands on something I like, but that's probably ok, since it's rain season around here and I hate treating leather in interiors... you know, smells, vapors, all that. Besides, since I like treating the whole side to get an even result, I have to do it all outside and give it some time to dry in the sun.

Anyway, I'm not in a hurry and I would very much appreciate any tips on where to buy.

Thanks a lot!!

 

[NVLeatherWorx]

Now knowing the leather tannery you use makes some sense to me as to why the results are as inconsistent as you had explained in the first post.  That tannery is known to use "alternate" liquids in their tanning process and their formula is not from Oak either so the resulting leather is not the same as what we refer to as vegetable tanned which is really Oak tanned leather.  This is also the tannery group that does a large amount of the Tandy leathers and you can find plenty of threads here in these forums that will outline a wide range of issues and complaints.  Convenience makes sense but it isn't always as convenient as we thought it was.  Regarding the Fiebing's brand:  it is the brand that was here when leather working took off and it has been the brand trusted by more Master Craftsmen and Master Saddle Makers than any other; it also is the most trusted and used brand around the globe and I have stood by them since I started with leather working over 40 years ago.  I have tested and evaluated the other brands that are out there and have found nothing that even comes close to them, especially those water-based eco products.  If you want to give some U.S. based suppliers a shot, there is a huge designer industry supplier located in Napa, California, named The Hide House.  They carry a wide range of leathers that just about covers everything you can dream of and they do supply a larger industry than any other supplier we have.  Their natural tanned (vegetable-tanned) leathers are from either Hermann Oak in St. Louis, MO, or they are imported from Europe (France and England) and they are all tanned using the Oak based formula which gives a much more russet color and works much better for stamping and/or carving & tooling as well as wet molding if that is in your wheelhouse.  They are also very easy to dye/stain and accept the colors much more evenly than any of the other vegetable based tanned leathers.  I believe that The Hide House also has a selection of drum dyed leathers and harness leathers that have been fully dyed and conditioned that may suit your needs.  If you have an opportunity give them a look at www.hidehouse.com and see what you can find.

[EfrainBG]

Thanks for the tips! I'll take a look at The Hide House.

But, to be clear, the leather I showed here does not come from Chahin. I recently asked for the samples, but I haven't bought anything from them yet. I couldn't say where this particular leather comes from... the worker didn't know (Ithink he was honest about it).

Now that I remember, there's another tannery I looked up a while ago. If you know anything about them I would appreciate it if you shared. They're LEFARC, from Guanajuato, Mexico. I found them because of Saddleback Leather... to be honest, I don't know if they even sell in the local market.

[EfrainBG]

I found several sides of Horween Chromexcel at Maverick. They're marked as "Horween seconds"... what does this mean? Is it that they were mistreated in the store and come with scratches, scars, bites, etc? They're around the 3.50-5.50 dlls per square foot mark and the sides are about 18-22 sqft in area.

 I looked in The Hides House but I haven't figured out the site completely. I have yet to check the Hermann Oak in there, although for 200 dlls a side and the exchange rate I doubt that I can justify that cost for a personal project (i.e. the Mrs. would kick my ass all the way from here to the fifth floor in the Horween building in Chicago)

[NVLeatherWorx]

I believe that LEFARC only sells to large operations and if I understand the history of Saddleback Leather the LEFARC tannery is very small and private.  I do know that they use pretty much the same tanning formula as Chahin as that is the standard for Mexico and all of Central and South America (cheaper to produce as the vegetable matters used are common to the area whereas the Oak isn't).  Odds are that your testing was conducted with leather that comes from the same process so I would suggest that your results would not be too much different if done with leather from Chahin.  I don't see the prices for leather from the Hide House in the form of a whole side as I order from them at the wholesale pricing which is actually based on per square foot.  I just received another 8 to 9 oz. Hermann Oak side that came in at 29.7 square feet and my price was at the $179 mark for that one (it is already gone too as it has been turned into 32 belts over the past few days).  The Hide House website does take a bit to get used to as it is still quite antiquated but for all of your tooling leather just look under the heading for Saddlery; your linings can easily be found under Orthopedic and/or Boot and Shoe.  Once you spend a little time in there you quickly figure it out.

The term "seconds" is typically used to identify a product that was found to be of substandard quality by the manufacturer during their QC checks.  In the case of leather it typically means that there are marks, scratches, rips, holes, etc. that caused it to be rejected for sale to the distributors that they typically work with but they were more than happy to sell it off to a lesser distributor for basically the costs to produce the product.  Horween is good leather but it is pretty much pre-finished and you can't do much else with it.  Each type of leather produced by Horween also has a targeted use and most of them do not respond to adhesives (if you use them to preposition components) very well.

Edited November 18, 2016 by NVLeatherWorx

[EfrainBG]

Yes, they do sell only to large operations. They ask for a minimum of 100 sides of one color... they do have a couple of retailers in Mexico, but it seems they don't sell their premium products there... I'd guess they do have some sort of exclusive deals with several brands.

If that's the real meaning of seconds, I know I don't want to buy one of those online... if ever, I'd need to see it in a brick and mortar store to decide first-hand.

I'm navigating through the Hide House site now and starting to get the hang of it.

Again, thanks a lot!