Why aren't there more tree makers?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

If there were more good tree craftsmen and quality rawhide for them to use then I bet there would not be such a push to the synthetic. There is a bottleneck at the tree level.

So, can anyone tell me why people aren't lining up to become tree makers? The demand far outstrips the supply. If you make a good tree, your advertising budget is nil after you get a few out there. The saddle makers do your advertising for you by word of mouth. The start up costs are not insignificant, but way less than most other businesses. The business was able to support us within three years of start up, and that was when the demand wasn't as high. You get to talk to people from all over North America, with the occasional contact from overseas. It is a specialized thing, but not rocket science when you get good instruction. OK, the fact that most handmade tree makers can only turn out 80-150 trees a year (one turns out an amazing 200!) working full time, means that you won't be a millionaire. But other than that minor detail, I really don't know why there aren't more people interested in making trees for a living.

By the way, no problem getting good rawhide. We make our own - it's easy (unless you live in town. But we made it there too - we had good neighbours!). And there are suppliers in both Canada and the States where you can buy premade rawhide sold frozen. You just can't buy it un-split, which is where making your own has its advantages.

[Hidemechanic]

Rod and Denise, I would veture to say that there are no lines for prospective tree makers because there is little recognition, no glory, no romance for the craft as is with saddles. Once a tree is covered thoughts of the tree maker fade to the shadows.

I don't recall any contests or divitions as in the Cowboy Artisens judging, or recognition for the top honours in the tree makers catagory. Too bad really.

I'm probably too old to start new with something like that now, I'm sure the aprenticeship and start up would with new tools and equipment would be prohibitive for me, but it seems there should be a way to promote the craft so as to draw more attention to younger crafters to take interest in the trade. Especially now that there is an established interest in high end trees. We can hope, right?GH

[okiwen]

So, can anyone tell me why people aren't lining up to become tree makers? The demand far outstrips the supply. If you make a good tree, your advertising budget is nil after you get a few out there. The saddle makers do your advertising for you by word of mouth. The start up costs are not insignificant, but way less than most other businesses. The business was able to support us within three years of start up, and that was when the demand wasn't as high. You get to talk to people from all over North America, with the occasional contact from overseas. It is a specialized thing, but not rocket science when you get good instruction. OK, the fact that most handmade tree makers can only turn out 80-150 trees a year (one turns out an amazing 200!) working full time, means that you won't be a millionaire. But other than that minor detail, I really don't know why there aren't more people interested in making trees for a living.

By the way, no problem getting good rawhide. We make our own - it's easy (unless you live in town. But we made it there too - we had good neighbours!). And there are suppliers in both Canada and the States where you can buy premade rawhide sold frozen. You just can't buy it un-split, which is where making your own has its advantages.

Well, I for one have thought the same thing. I found that there was absolutly no one to learn from in my area and I don't have the luxury of moving. But wouldn't it be a great skill to learn. I am sure that you have over simplified it some at least or there would be better makers even among those that make trees now. I think that if there were more people willing to teach at a high level then some young people starting out in life would love to learn.

Edited January 28, 2008 by okiwen

[Hidemechanic]

okiwen, I think Ben Swanke is still in Billings, and Slick fork saddle shop in Townsand. Might pay you to run down there and have a chat. Might get some tips or leads. GH

[greg gomersall]

Seems to me that Rick Reed is over around Bozeman somewhere as well. Greg

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

I found that there was absolutly no one to learn from in my area and I don't have the luxury of moving.

Rod learned from a guy in another province. He had about 1 1/2 weeks of hands on instruction. The rest was phone calls before and after. But he came into it with a background of riding and horses. He had repaired enough saddles to have a very basic idea of saddle construction. He had been in Julian's tree shop a few years before so had a general idea of how a tree went together. By the time he went for teaching he had decided he wanted to be a tree maker and had done the research to know the costs of equipment, etc. that he would need to get set up. He started in a 10' x 14' shop in the backyard of our rented house in town. (Good thing he is skinny.) It is not rocket science, but it is also not something that can be done as a hobby or on a whim. To get good, you have to build some trees. If you decide this is what you want to do, go for it. Make sure you learn from someone whose trees are the quality you strive to attain to. And make sure you get the why and not just the how. Good instruction makes a world of difference, as we well know.

[okiwen]

Rod learned from a guy in another province. He had about 1 1/2 weeks of hands on instruction. The rest was phone calls before and after. But he came into it with a background of riding and horses. He had repaired enough saddles to have a very basic idea of saddle construction. He had been in Julian's tree shop a few years before so had a general idea of how a tree went together. By the time he went for teaching he had decided he wanted to be a tree maker and had done the research to know the costs of equipment, etc. that he would need to get set up. He started in a 10' x 14' shop in the backyard of our rented house in town. (Good thing he is skinny.) It is not rocket science, but it is also not something that can be done as a hobby or on a whim. To get good, you have to build some trees. If you decide this is what you want to do, go for it. Make sure you learn from someone whose trees are the quality you strive to attain to. And make sure you get the why and not just the how. Good instruction makes a world of difference, as we well know.

Thank you to all three of you. I do have an interest in learning to make trees but it's not in the cards for a while. I don't have the extensive background that Rod has. I just see the bottleneck and think they are kinda cool in there own right. Great to read the insight you ALL have.

Kevin

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

Denise,

I would like to make aleast one tree. The only thing is there is not much out there to learn how to do the craft. Anyone can pick up some sort of manual on how-to build a saddle and see what all is involved, before they take the leap.

I wouldnt even know where to start in the tree making process. For example what all tools are needed. I have a table saw, radial arm saw, lathe, planner, moulder. What other power tools are needed for tree making? Have tree makers ever thought of putting together a manual on tree making?

Ashley

[JRedding]

I doubt very many people could put up with all the nitpicken' saddlemakers for any length of time. You have the patience of Jobe.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Ashley,

A number of years ago we put together a small package of material we send out to people who ask about learning how to build trees. We would love to teach people who are serious about becoming tree makers, but we have yet to have anyone take us up on our offer. Included in that package is the following:

Equipment needed for Tree Building

1.) Large equipment

- minimum 28" band saw (ours is 32")

- pneumatic drum sander with stand idlers, converted to belt sander

- 12" jointer and planer or combination jointer/planer

- dust collecting system (we have a Clear Vue cyclone)

2.) Small power tools

- 5" side grinder x 2

- electric drill

- router

- circular saw

3.) Other tools

- clamping and gluing equipment

- numerous hand woodworking tools

Other requirements you will need:

1.) A shop of some kind to work in. This makes too much dust and noise for tree making to be a basement project.

2.) A dependable supply of kiln dried (7-10% moisture) hardwood and softwood where ideally you can choose the boards you want. Lumber yard wood is not acceptable.

3.) A source for horns and other good quality hardware needed in making trees. (Bork Saddlery Hardware or Boise Foundry)

4.) A dependable supply of bull hides that are carefully skinned out.

5.) Someplace to make rawhide, and a place to get rid of the garbage from making rawhide.

6.) OR, in place of 4 and 5, a dependable place to buy good quality rawhide which hasn't been dried. (A lot of guys use Hereford Byproducts in Texas.)

We don't have a table saw, radial arm saw, lathe or moulder. Could one or two trees be made otherwise? Probably, but that bandsaw is pretty critical in getting the cuts on the bars to fit the fork and cantle correctly. And if you are going to make many trees, especially if you will have hardwood in them, the other equipment is pretty vital too.

As for a manual on building trees, maybe someone could put out a short "how to" cookie cutter type book. But you need to understand the "whys" and not just the "hows", and I probably don't have enough time left in my life to write that. Part of what we would give people who learn from us is full written instructions, but that is along with good teaching. Without the seeing and doing, the instructions wouldn't be completely understood, or worse, they could be misinterpreted and misused.

[grumpyguy]

I have pondered this myself for some time. Hidecrafter hit the nail squarely on the head so I'll not repeat his points.

I have decided to try my hand at tree making and launch my own project. In my view the traditional trees are the way I will go. No one has proven to me yet there is another superior product out there. (Then again maybe that shows my own stubbornness.) I have repaired saddles for friends and counter parts, rebuilt saddles of my own and made custom tack items. I also have ridden a substantial amount on a variety of horses and spent days in the saddle. I know what fits and what is going to cause trouble. (Both for my horses and myself.)

Awhile back I got the itch to make up a saddle and began looking for a tree. I decided against a "factory tree" and found the custom makers were busy taking care of thier already established clients and did not want to take time to just build a tree for a newaccount that was not proven. (As anyone with good sense and a backlog of orders would do.) They of course directed me to a number of saddle makers (their clients) who politely tried to talk me into ordering a saddle from them and not try it myself.

I began to consider making trees myself and have spent time studying a few saddles, seeing how the trees were made.

I then began to notice some saddle makers were making trees for themselves. I see the advantage in maintaining control of the entire saddle building operation. This gives the maker control in making trees for his specs and application, thus making sure his clients will be satisfied with an above average product. (Hopefully or perhaps at least in the maker and more importantly the customers minds.)

All of this being said, I have run into a major snag in I have not located a source for the bull hide. The local processor here can't be a reliable supply and he sells all of his hides to a buyer for a tannery. If someone out there knows where I can get the frozen bull hides I would be greatful for the information. If I can get the materials I believe I could produce a satifactory tree. Hopefully shortly I'll be able to post the results of my efforts here, soon. (Might have been simpler to just holler, "HELP, WHERE CAN I GET BULL HIDE FOR MY TREES!" but I could not help myself.)

Rod and Denise,

I would be intersted in information on your "small package" if they are still being offered.

Edited April 22, 2008 by grumpyguy

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Grumpyguy,

Most tree makers we know get their rawhide from Hereford ByProducts in Hereford Texas. The last phone number we had for them was 806-369-0951. My understanding is that "bullhide" is just a designation for the thickest hide you can get and says nothing about the age or sex of the animal used. And all of it is split. To get a thicker hide you need to make your own, which a number of tree makers, ourselves included, do. Then you know you are getting true BULL hide. But the prebought stuff is also very commonly used.

For straight hides, not processed... Sorry, can't help you. We have the luxury (?) of a place about 95 minutes from here that is medium sized. They kill about 50 animals a week - big enough that we can often, but not always, get what we need, but small enough to be willing to keep them separate for us. We are nice to them because without them we would be up the creek, but I think they get well paid for the hides compared to what they get from the tannery too.

By the way, we have finally managed to get our backlog to a handleable level so are again taking on new customers.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Denise

[David Genadek]

I have pondered this myself for some time. Hidecrafter hit the nail squarely on the head so I'll not repeat his points.

I have decided to try my hand at tree making and launch my own project. In my view the traditional trees are the way I will go. No one has proven to me yet there is another superior product out there. (Then again maybe that shows my own stubbornness.) I have repaired saddles for friends and counter parts, rebuilt saddles of my own and made custom tack items. I also have ridden a substantial amount on a variety of horses and spent days in the saddle. I know what fits and what is going to cause trouble. (Both for my horses and myself.)

Awhile back I got the itch to make up a saddle and began looking for a tree. I decided against a "factory tree" and found the custom makers were busy taking care of thier already established clients and did not want to take time to just build a tree for a newaccount that was not proven. (As anyone with good sense and a backlog of orders would do.) They of course directed me to a number of saddle makers (their clients) who politely tried to talk me into ordering a saddle from them and not try it myself.

I began to consider making trees myself and have spent time studying a few saddles, seeing how the trees were made.

I then began to notice some saddle makers were making trees for themselves. I see the advantage in maintaining control of the entire saddle building operation. This gives the maker control in making trees for his specs and application, thus making sure his clients will be satisfied with an above average product. (Hopefully or perhaps at least in the maker and more importantly the customers minds.)

All of this being said, I have run into a major snag in I have not located a source for the bull hide. The local processor here can't be a reliable supply and he sells all of his hides to a buyer for a tannery. If someone out there knows where I can get the frozen bull hides I would be greatful for the information. If I can get the materials I believe I could produce a satifactory tree. Hopefully shortly I'll be able to post the results of my efforts here, soon. (Might have been simpler to just holler, "HELP, WHERE CAN I GET BULL HIDE FOR MY TREES!" but I could not help myself.)

Rod and Denise,

I would be intersted in information on your "small package" if they are still being offered.

Formerly Herford by Products

Tejas Industries

PO Box 2257

Hereford TX 79045-2257

866 660 2830 toll fre

806 350 5540

confer@tejasindustries.com

David Genadek

[grumpyguy]

Thanks, David.

Grumpy

[mulefool]

We would like to make our own pack saddle trees. We do Assemble our own Deckers. but we have the bars cut by Sonny Felkins and we get our arches cast from Herb Bork. We would like to ability to cut our own bars and also to make Sawbuck trees. I'm not that happy with what I am able to get. We do dress them up a bit after we get them, but we'd like a little better shape to the bars and just a nicer tree. It's been hard getting the time to do the research on putting together a little tree shop.

[grumpyguy]

Mulefool,

the wooden saw bucks are usually softwood bars and oak cross pieces. Packers I know use pine or fir for the bars around here when they repair thier old trees. (I have heard of Cottonwood and Alder also used, both are classified as "hardwood" but are very soft as hardwoods go.) The cross pieces are white oak because of it's resistance to weather and moisture changes. (Same reason boat builders use white oak over the more common red oak on the market.) I don't know if this helps you any.

The dimention of the sawbuck lumber is usually 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" stock. When fitted together there are a front and a rear sawbuck. The rear go on as they are. The front sawbuck must be cut out to clear for the withers and padding. I don't off hand know the angle that is used. It looks like 90 degrees or something close. The real kicker will be the angle at which you attach the bars. I suggest checking with Difani's Backcountry or Pack Shop, both are in Idaho and both have great web sites. Both shops indicate they manufacture thier own equipment which they sell. I found them by searhing in Google under "pack saddle."

I like the deckers better because if I have to fit a new or different animal all I have to do is use a heating tip on a welding rig to heat and bend the arches to get the bars to fit properly. (Plumbers torch and mapp gas will work if the weather is not too cold and your not out in the wind but is not quite hot enough to get nice even bends.) Some of the packers around here will not even give thought to deckers because they traditionally have always used the sawbucks.

Best of luck,

Grumpyguy

[mulefool]

Thanks grumpy. Our Decker bars are cut from cottonwood. I like it cause it's light and fibrous. Most customers that have any preference on wood at all want the cottonwood. I believe the old Forest Service specs are cottonwood.

The sawbucks we presently get are pine with oak crosses.

We're headed down the the packing clinic in Klamath Falls this coming weekend. Larry Difani always has a booth one down from us. We always have a nice time chatting with him. I noticed last year he appeared to be making his own sawbuck trees.

I prefer a Decker, too. but we sell gear all over and as you know some areas are Sawbuck country.

Sounds like you're pretty knowledgeable on pack saddles. Here's our website if you'd like to see what we do. www.horseandmulegear.com

[grumpyguy]

Mulefool,

Nice site, turnsout I've seen your advertisements in several horse magazines and read articals from some of your customers over the years. You make nice gear! The Nikkels should be able to give you some advise on tree making. Great thing about packsaddle bars is the bottom is the side you really must fit and the rest is subject to your preferences. Really like the artwork too!

Grumpy

[jennifer]

Anyone know someone who could teach the craft near San Diego?

[Severe]

Really good stuff in this thread.

I started building trees under my dads instruction, he learned from Walt Youngman at Hamleys. After shaping wood for three years I started learning the rawhide end under Dan Luft ( he was the rawhider for Hamleys for years) I would work the first part of the week in the wood then take the trees in and Dan & I would start rawhiding.

It was great to learn under a couple guys that had the experence to show me the little tricks that make life easyer. I in turn helped my brother monty learn to rawhide and also helped Warren Wright for a short time get some hands on in the hide room.

After about six years we had a saddlemaker retire upstairs and my uncle started teaching me to build saddles. I started building assn. treesand when I had about 12 built up I'd go upstairs and start putting leather on. I was pretty fortunate to learn both trades from guys who were considered experts.

This is all leading up to one thought that I've had for some time. Learng both trades has helped me do both jobs better. When I start a tree now , I know pretty much what I want the saddle to be and I shape the top of the tree to help me in that reguard, when the leather go's on it lets me get to where I want to be.

Down side? you can't fool the saddlemaker, or lay the blame on the treemaker.

If you only do one, I'd still advise every treemaker to build a saddle, and every saddlemaker to build a tree. RS

[AndyKnight]

This is all leading up to one thought that I've had for some time. Learng both trades has helped me do both jobs better. When I start a tree now , I know pretty much what I want the saddle to be and I shape the top of the tree to help me in that reguard, when the leather go's on it lets me get to where I want to be.

Down side? you can't fool the saddlemaker, or lay the blame on the treemaker.

If you only do one, I'd still advise every treemaker to build a saddle, and every saddlemaker to build a tree. RS

I sure agree with that!!

Andy

[IanCantwell]

So, can anyone tell me why people aren't lining up to become tree makers?

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum (and saddle making) and have spent all morning reading the posts and figure there's going to lots I can learn from you all. Might have a problem with the time zone over here in the UK and the computer being at work but will try to keep up.

I built my first saddle (old timer on Ultrahide slick fork tree) in 3 weeks with the instruction (and very little hands on help) of Bob Land @ Okanagan Saddlery B.C. Learnt lots about what NOT to do so figure this was a good course. To remind myself of what I'd learnt I built another saddle when I got home to England, that was a couple of years back. My horse has outgrown them and so I'm now thinking about my next project.

To the question of trees and lack of availability. Well over here I can name maximum 3 western saddlemakers and that's it, and nobody makes trees. Not to say there isn't an interest in western riding but when you way up the cost of importing a tree @ say $350 + shipping+import duty+tax you're into $650. Then you start with the leather (8oz is about the thickest you get here) and all the other bits and you're soon beyond what anyone is prepared to pay even for a custom/bespoke saddle. One guy does a 15lb trail saddle on Ralide tree for $3500! There's a great market for NEW $400 saddles on ebay.co.uk!!!

I'd love to get into making a tree for my next saddle, an early Hope style with Sam Stag rigging or something of that type. Don't want to go to Tandy for a Ralide tree and rather not wait the 90 days++ (Sonny F.) plus time in shipping and customs for an import although I appreciate the superb quality you guys produce. Need a wood tree with rawhide as the tree will be exposed. Trawled all your web sites, downloaded the pics and diagrams, found UK suppliers of the correct timber but my biggest problem apart from not being trained in tree making (I'm a mechanical engineer & my father a joiner so we're pretty handy) is going to be getting the correct rawhide.

Anyway, hope someone will reply with advice and I'll post some pics of my saddles soon.

Ian.

[Denise]

If you have access to a fresh hide of the thickness you would like to use, making your own might be the best way to go. Here is a thread on how some people make their own rawhide. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...ic=2670&hl=

When the old posts come back, there were a couple of other threads on making rawhide, including one about using hot/boiling water. Have fun and let us know how it goes.

[IanCantwell]

If you have access to a fresh hide of the thickness you would like to use, making your own might be the best way to go. Here is a thread on how some people make their own rawhide. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...ic=2670&hl=

When the old posts come back, there were a couple of other threads on making rawhide, including one about using hot/boiling water. Have fun and let us know how it goes.

Thanks Denise,

Gosh, so much info on the WWW it's mind blowing. Don't think I'll be in a position to make my own, seems like a smelly, messy job. Living in the middle of a housing estate my not be the ideal situation!! Sent a PM to Troy in Scotland, hope he can help me. Will let you know how things go and I'll keep on with the research.

Have some thoughts on measuring horses so will start a new topic when I'm next in work.

Thanks again, Ian.