Skiving Machine, Dual Speed needed?

[arz]

Hello,

I need a skiving machine (bell skiver) for splitting wallets back, thinning pockets etc,. I need it so I can line a wallet, so I have to get it down to below 1mm. Here in Europe it seems common to do that. I would be using it for 2-3oz (1mm) goat, calf and veg-tan. Maximum 2mm thick. 

My question is do I need a dual speed set-up? In other words, a constant knife speed and a variable feed wheel speed. The price difference can be almost twice. 

I have heard some say that you need the blade running at high speeds, but I also need control. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks! Adam

[RockyAussie]

I have a Fortuna and a FAV and they both have the blade run at a constant fast speed. The foot pedal allows the feed wheel to go at whatever speed you want just like your accelerator in a car does. You can if you want set them to be feeding at a constant feed speed as well. I did have a very old Fortuna and the bell on it only went along with the feed wheel and it was not very good. In all cases above there is only one motor and the feed is governed by a clutch.

In this link you will see a video I made using my Fortuna, it should help.

Regards Brian

[arz]

Thanks Brian, Where I'm at I have found the typical Chinese machines (which I believe will have the blade and feed in sync) and a used Fortuna and Fav. Not sure what model the used ones are and if they are setup to have the blade run at a constant speed. Looks like I should hold off for a constant blade and clutch feed.

[RockyAussie]

If you want to let me know the Chinese machine models I could check them out but I would be very surprised if they would be making them with a blade and feed in sync still. I do recommend whatever model you get, getting one with an aspirator to help take the waste away. That is a suction device that normally takes the waste into a bin under the table and on the left via a tube under the bell. The picture below shows what I mean I think. Regards Brian

[arz]

The Chinese ones all seem to be about the same, basically an 801 or Global SK111 model. I can find the following machines in Romania: Japsew Q-801, Jack T801, Dison DS-T801, Global SK111 and probably many other "brands." Some have a servo motor and others a clutch.

I'm familiar with the vacuum attachment, so far none of the used ones or even new ones here have one. I could always purchase a used machine from Germany if I needed to.... Thanks!

[gigi]

Hi Adam,

Depends on your budget: I would prefer a used Fortuna, FAV, Atom, Nippy  with vacuum over a new Chinese machine. 

[arz]

2 hours ago, gigi said:

Hi Adam,

Depends on your budget: I would prefer a used Fortuna, FAV, Atom, Nippy  with vacuum over a new Chinese machine. 

Thanks for the advice, I agree. It's good to see someone else from Brasov doing fine leather work! I am trying to be careful with my budget....once my business gets up and running I will be willing to spend more.  I might just wait until I can justify a 1500+ euro used machine.

-Adam

[gigi]

Servus! Best of luck!

[arz]

19 hours ago, gigi said:

Servus! Best of luck!

Multumesc mult!

[arz]

Update on skiver purchase: I looked at a typical Chinese 801 today and a used Ellegi GL12CTN today. The was the first time I had used one. On the Chinese model the belts could be set so that there is a different ratio between the knife speed and feeding speed. Both are the same price. I'm trying to determine which will be better for my needs (see post above).

The used machine was in good condition, all the covers and parts were there, no rattling or bearing sounds etc. It seemed mechanically sound. It has a new knife and a vacuum. It is set up so that the blade runs continuously and the feed is controlled by the clutch (foot pedal). 

It however skived pretty bad (bunching up, tearing, not skiving straight etc.). It was a harsh reality of how important it will be to set it up correct (my wife was not impressed!). I am assuming that it is skiving bad because of: A. poor setup, and B. A new blade that has not been sharpened correctly. For example, they did not even know you have to remove the burr inside the knife. I also think they had the depth gauge on up-side-down.

Also, it had a standard looking presser foot (about 55mm) shaped the same as the radius of the knife. However, if you look at the foot straight on (towards the back of the machine) it was beveled, not straight. Is that normal? I have attached a very simple drawing to show what I mean.

I'm not sure what machine will be best for me. The new one will have local service, quieter. While the used one will need a little care given to it and I will be on my own...

Thanks! Adam

 

[RockyAussie]

Hi Adam, that picture above makes no sense to me at all as it shown. Is Gigi anywhere close to you as you may do well to swap notes with her. The presser foot base should angle toward the feed wheel as to allow thick going in and thinner as it gets to the blade edge. For the work your wanting to do I would be getting a roller presser foot either way. I would go with the vacuum model as I doubt that there is any real problem other then setting up properly.They do take awhile to get proficient at using. Some pictures of the machine could help. Brian

[arz]

7 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Hi Adam, that picture above makes no sense to me at all as it shown. Is Gigi anywhere close to you as you may do well to swap notes with her. The presser foot base should angle toward the feed wheel as to allow thick going in and thinner as it gets to the blade edge. For the work your wanting to do I would be getting a roller presser foot either way. I would go with the vacuum model as I doubt that there is any real problem other then setting up properly.They do take awhile to get proficient at using. Some pictures of the machine could help. Brian

I'm sorry the drawing does not make sense  I think what you described it what I was trying to say, I probably have the angle going in the wrong direction in the drawing.

I'll go try the Chinese model and then choose one, although from what people say the Italian model is probably better. This one is the same as a Atom GL12CTN.

Thanks!

Here is the only photo I have of the machine:

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by arz
Replaced image.

[arz]

Also, I now have access to a band splitter (about 2.5 hours from me). So I can now have someone split my goat leather down to 0.5mm for lining. I really only need the skiver for edges and maybe wallet pockets...

-Adam

[RockyAussie]

5 hours ago, arz said:

I'm sorry the drawing does not make sense  I think what you described it what I was trying to say, I probably have the angle going in the wrong direction in the drawing.

I'll go try the Chinese model and then choose one, although from what people say the Italian model is probably better. This one is the same as a Atom GL12CTN.

Thanks!

Here is the only photo I have of the machine:

 

Picture looks good to me. Has the Chinese one have a Vacuum or not? If not I would go with the one in picture I think.

[arz]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

Picture looks good to me. Has the Chinese one have a Vacuum or not? If not I would go with the one in picture I think.

The Chinese one does not have a vacuum. The cheapest Chinese with a vacuum I can find is around 2,400 euro (Sieck.de). This is much much less!

So the vacuum is that important?

-Adam

[RockyAussie]

10 hours ago, arz said:

So the vacuum is that important?

In my own experience yes. I have had both and there is a big difference unless you are using heavy saddle type leathers. Soft leathers will often stay attached to the feed wheel and come around to the knife again then cutting through the leather and wrecking it.The one I had first without a vacuum I sold for $200au and felt bad for dumping it instead.Regards Brian

[arz]

@RockyAussie Thanks! I use mostly Alran goat and veg-tan from Italy (2mm max). I will let you know what machine I buy. Either way I will need to buy a better foot for it. -Adam

[Trox]

I would choose that Italian machine, the Italians make very good skiving machines. And I agree with Brian, a exhaust/suction system is important. Of course a constant speed bell knife machine does a much better job and are easier to use. I have an Italian Alpha machine with three motor setup, little servo for the feed wheel, one for the knife and one for the vacuum system. Very happy with it. Tor 

[arz]

@Trox Thanks for the info! Our small shop is in our third bedroom in our apartment. That is why I was leaning towards the Chinese machine, it is quieter (don't want to disturb the neighbors). However, I do have another room in a retail space about ten minutes away (rented for another purpose). I could put the skiver there. Not great, but it will work until we can rent a better shop.

I appreciate the advice that all of you have given, it has been very helpful! -Adam

[Trox]

On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 9:29 PM, arz said:

@Trox Thanks for the info! Our small shop is in our third bedroom in our apartment. That is why I was leaning towards the Chinese machine, it is quieter (don't want to disturb the neighbors). However, I do have another room in a retail space about ten minutes away (rented for another purpose). I could put the skiver there. Not great, but it will work until we can rent a better shop.

I appreciate the advice that all of you have given, it has been very helpful! -Adam

Either way a skiving machine makes noice regardless how many motors they have, the grinding is very noisy. If you can get an Italian machine with constant speed and vacuum for the same money as an basic Chinese machine, your choice would be easy. Do not even dwell about it, just grab it. These machines have a pretty step learning curve and the Italian one would be much easier to use. Tor 

[arz]

@Trox Thanks! I would like to buy the Italian one. I am now waiting to here back from the dealer if they can change it to 220V for me (this one is currently setup for 380V). -Adam

 

[arz]

The dealer said they cannot change the motors to 220V. I would have to replace the motors etc. I'm not sure how involved that would be. We are busy enough at the moment so that option does not appeal to me. He is looking for another machine for us. I can wait so that's fine with me

[RockyAussie]

Must be a different set up to mine as it only runs a single 3/4 hp motor to run everything off belts and pulleys etc. Feed wheel is controlled by a clutch which as you can see in my video gives pretty good control. I just took a couple of pics below of my machine that could help..

[arz]

@RockyAussie Thanks! This one has two motors: One on the right that has one belt that controls the knife/clutch (inside the machine is a typical clutch setup with a belt that goes to the feed clutch). The second motor is on the left cabinet that powers the vacuum.

[Trox]

Mine has three motors, one 380V for the knife that runs on full speed. One for the suction device, also 380 V on full speed. And a little 12v DC motor inside the head for the feed wheel. I do not have three phase (380V) in my workshop, so I just connected a frequency controller. It's plugged in my 220V single Ph outlet and four leads goes from it to the 380V inlet on the machine. The controller converts single 220v in to three phase 380V. And the hertz controller on it gives the full 50 hertz all the time, motors run at full speed as they must on this set up. That's how easy it is to do this, ask Gigi for help. By the way all AC motors are initially a three phase motor. Tor